Player Discussion Phillip Danault: What's My Line Edition

[tinyzombies]

So Tatar is one of the best overall player both offensively and defensively in the whole league. Either i'm reading that chart wrong or the chart itself is not worth much.

Hockey is not a game of individuals and lines play different styles. That line has found a way to shut down elite opponents by playing keepaway. That generally wears down teams and provides chances. The line doesn't score much because they leave a forward back to help Weber/Chariot on the breakout (since that is not their strong point... Romaonv needs to take Chariot's job asap...), and he needs to make a perfect stretch pass, and then join as a facilitator, then as an F3 in the offensive zone where he makes a read for when to join in the cycle. Then he has to shake the defense and make a play (which he does well). So to ask him to score on top of that is kind of shortsighted. It's not how the line plays.

Montreal fans have done this through the years to players without understanding how the game is played, they're just looking at goals and assists- primary stats.

 

[Kriss E]

Danault's line is a shutdown possession line, not a scoring line. It's not your typical top line, it's more a power-vs-power 2nd line. He leads all North Div centers in Expected Goals For % and Goals For %... he's doing fine. If we tweak the transition he won't have to dig out of his own end and then pick up the shovel again in the offensive end. AND be expected to score. No one could do all that- Crosby for a few years, but who else in history? Clarke? Morenz? Beliveau? There aren't many. Most of your top scoring centers don't touch a shovel.

Danault wears many hats- penalty killer, face-off man, defender, build-up passer, facilitator, board-man, playmaker... we need to re-sign him badly or this won't be the same team.

You know there's something awfully wrong with your stat line when the guy who scored 0 goal is doing better than the guy with 40 pts.

This should open up your eyes to how misleading advanced stats can be. Before looking at analytics, look at the basic ones. Danault hasn't scored one f***ing goal in 20 games, and you're arguing how badly we need to re-sign him because of his GF%? Loll..dude...

 

[tinyzombies]

You know there's something awfully wrong with your stat line when the guy who scored 0 goal is doing better than the guy with 40 pts.

This should open up your eyes to how misleading advanced stats can be. Before looking at analytics, look at the basic ones. Danault hasn't scored one f***ing goal in 20 games, and you're arguing how badly we need to re-sign him because of his GF%? Loll..dude...

Just keep typing before your brain has a chance to think. lol

What you're all really saying is: 'He's not McDavid." Duh, if he was he'd be asking for 12m. He's been more effective than McDavid though if you look at eating up ice time vs elites and outscoring them.

 

[habdynasty]

He is the 97th best centre in the league

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Hockey is not a game of individuals and lines play different styles. That line has found a way to shut down elite opponents by playing keepaway. That generally wears down teams and provides chances. The line doesn't score much because they leave a forward back to help Weber/Chariot on the breakout (since that is not their strong point... Romaonv needs to take Chariot's job asap...), and he needs to make a perfect stretch pass, and then join as a facilitator, then as an F3 in the offensive zone where he makes a read for when to join in the cycle. Then he has to shake the defense and make a play (which he does well). So to ask him to score on top of that is kind of shortsighted. It's not how the line plays.

Montreal fans have done this through the years to players without understanding how the game is played, they're just looking at goals and assists- primary stats.

You're ignoring the fact that every line that has to play with Chairot-Weber has to do the same thing...and they've all scored...yes, someone has to take Chairot's spot on the Top Pairing; again, the only ones who seem not tot see that are Habs management...it doesn't change the fact that Danault should be playing as the #3C with 3rd line linemates...so either they play Kotkaniemi in a more offensive role and let him sink or swim, or they continue to waste him as a #3C and let this BS continue...

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Just keep typing before your brain has a chance to think. lol

What you're all really saying is: 'He's not McDavid." Duh, if he was he'd be asking for 12m. He's been more effective than McDavid though if you look at eating up ice time vs elites and outscoring them.

More effective than McJesus...and you wanna talk about other people's brains...

 

[Kriss E]

Just keep typing before your brain has a chance to think. lol

What you're all really saying is: 'He's not McDavid." Duh, if he was he'd be asking for 12m. He's been more effective than McDavid though if you look at eating up ice time vs elites and outscoring them.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't give two shits if he's better at GF% because he's scoring f***-all right now and he's on the ice for a third of the game. He needs to produce. He's not. He literally has 0 goal.

He's a very good checking center, use him as such, no problem. Moment you start using him more than that, then raw production becomes a very key element.

 

[Lshap]

That's the wrong way to look at his function on that line.

he also faces the 8th toughest quality of competition in the league, and he's outscored them at 5's 12-6.

View attachment 402054

Danault hasn't outscored anyone because he hasn't scored. Period. A forward's primary job is to generate offence; Danault is among the worst in the league in that department.

If you're feeling ganged up on, it's because you've chosen to fight a really odd battle. Arcane stats are interesting, but not more valuable than the game on the ice. It's like defending a one-legged sprinter. Nobody cares about his one leg's torque quotient if he can't finish the race.

 

[tinyzombies]

Danault hasn't outscored anyone because he hasn't scored. Period. A forward's primary job is to generate offence; Danault is among the worst in the league in that department.

If you're feeling ganged up on, it's because you've chosen to fight a really odd battle. Arcane stats are interesting, but not more valuable than the game on the ice. It's like defending a one-legged sprinter. Nobody cares about his one leg's torque quotient if he can't finish the race.

It's not an odd battle, his line has outplayed all elite lines. I've explained why his scoring is down. It's a function of first having to win the draw (which he often does), defending, then carrying a defensive pairing that cannot transition the puck. Then he has to help Gallagher on the boards. Then he has to create space and make a play with Tatar. THEN score.

Your only argument is that he's not McDavid. If you look at the results, his line is outplaying McDavid's line. Yes the line has worn down a bit, they need to shift tactics. Julien wasn't able to do that, now it's Ducharme's turn. The load has to be lightened for this line.

Last year they outscored opponents 40-20 even strength and they've done that again this year. That's what matters- they give us a chance to win. And they've worked their butts off. So when the "fans" try to run him out of town because they only look at surface stats and don't understand the purpose of the line or the duties of the player yes I start clicking on my keyboard.

My solution is to fix the transition game by moving Romanov up with Weber and putting Kulak back with Petry (they've always been excellent with occasional turnovers, but Chariot/Weber are both top 5 in the league in turnovers...). Armia and Anderson are banged up so call up Poehling to add more size.

As I mentioned Ducharme is adding a high forward in the offensive zone, an alternative to simply cycling. This has been the secret behind the league explosion in offense and we are FINALLY getting around to adding it instead of taking low danger point shots. That in turn will open up the point shot even more. I would also put Mete back in there on the third pairing. You can't just have all statues in today's game.

 

[jaffy27]

Normand Flynn making a fool of himself on Le 5 a 7

doubling down on Danault starting OT.....everyone against him....even Gaston

 

[Habs178]

I can’t even believe I’m reading comments that include Dann0goals and McDavid. Pffffftttt

 

[Whitesnake]

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't give two shits if he's better at GF% because he's scoring f***-all right now and he's on the ice for a third of the game. He needs to produce. He's not. He literally has 0 goal.

He's a very good checking center, use him as such, no problem. Moment you start using him more than that, then raw production becomes a very key element.

Thing is...he,s not even good at checking this year. He's soft. He misses assignments. He loses battles. He doesn't even use his smarts the way he used to. Not sure if it's the contract, but there's just nothing there. Except he's better at faceoffs than the others. That's it. So far.

I'm done with him. Done. Bring Boone Jenner. Bring whoever you want.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

So Tatar is one of the best overall player both offensively and defensively in the whole league. Either i'm reading that chart wrong or the chart itself is not worth much.

It's because most people who use expected stats ignore that further context is needed because certain systems and player habits will tend to register high danger area chances that are not of high quality, but are counted on the same footing, vice-versa on defense.

That's why it should always be tied with GF%, to give an idea of how far or close their expected stat is to the true output. Even then, there's always additional context needed as it doesn't account for usage and strenght of opposition.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

It's not an odd battle, his line has outplayed all elite lines. I've explained why his scoring is down. It's a function of first having to win the draw (which he often does), defending, then carrying a defensive pairing that cannot transition the puck. Then he has to help Gallagher on the boards. Then he has to create space and make a play with Tatar. THEN score.

Your only argument is that he's not McDavid. If you look at the results, his line is outplaying McDavid's line. Yes the line has worn down a bit, they need to shift tactics. Julien wasn't able to do that, now it's Ducharme's turn. The load has to be lightened for this line.

Last year they outscored opponents 40-20 even strength and they've done that again this year. That's what matters- they give us a chance to win. And they've worked their butts off. So when the "fans" try to run him out of town because they only look at surface stats and don't understand the purpose of the line or the duties of the player yes I start clicking on my keyboard.

My solution is to fix the transition game by moving Romanov up with Weber and putting Kulak back with Petry (they've always been excellent with occasional turnovers, but Chariot/Weber are both top 5 in the league in turnovers...). Armia and Anderson are banged up so call up Poehling to add more size.

As I mentioned Ducharme is adding a high forward in the offensive zone, an alternative to simply cycling. This has been the secret behind the league explosion in offense and we are FINALLY getting around to adding it instead of taking low danger point shots. That in turn will open up the point shot even more. I would also put Mete back in there on the third pairing. You can't just have all statues in today's game.

...and yet Suzuki has to deal with Weber-Chairot as well...so does Kotkaniemi...hell, even Evans has Weber-Chairot on the ice at times...so the excuse is Danault has to play a more defensive role...and so his usage needs to be as our defensive centre, otherwise known to the Hockey World as #3C...so what you are saying is that using Danault as our defensive #3C is the best usage for him...which is what we've all been saying all year...so getting Gallagher & Tatar off his wings for better Bottom 6 players who play a more 200ft game would help him, help Kotkaniemi, and help the Habs...glad we all agree...

 

[LaP]

Hockey is not a game of individuals and lines play different styles. That line has found a way to shut down elite opponents by playing keepaway. That generally wears down teams and provides chances. The line doesn't score much because they leave a forward back to help Weber/Chariot on the breakout (since that is not their strong point... Romaonv needs to take Chariot's job asap...), and he needs to make a perfect stretch pass, and then join as a facilitator, then as an F3 in the offensive zone where he makes a read for when to join in the cycle. Then he has to shake the defense and make a play (which he does well). So to ask him to score on top of that is kind of shortsighted. It's not how the line plays.

Montreal fans have done this through the years to players without understanding how the game is played, they're just looking at goals and assists- primary stats.

You can't create offense on a regular basis over a long enough period of time without scoring. I'm sorry i was not a skilled offensive player but i played hockey enough to know that if you create offense the puck will eventually go in. Putting Tatar on any offensive scale toward to higher end of the league means either the stats are wrong or the interpretation is.

I was not skilled but at the beer league level i was splaying i was offensively productive. There's not a single time in 22 years where i said to myself hey you are not producing but you are playing well offensively. If i was not producing i was not playing well enough as simple as that. Only one thing matters offensively over a good enough sample size and it's the end result. Without end result over 20+ games then it's worth a big 0.

Just keep typing before your brain has a chance to think. lol

What you're all really saying is: 'He's not McDavid." Duh, if he was he'd be asking for 12m. He's been more effective than McDavid though if you look at eating up ice time vs elites and outscoring them.

Okay i see where you stand now.

 

[CHfan1]

It's because most people who use expected stats ignore that further context is needed because certain systems and player habits will tend to register high danger area chances that are not of high quality, but are counted on the same footing, vice-versa on defense.

That's why it should always be tied with GF%, to give an idea of how far or close their expected stat is to the true output. Even then, there's always additional context needed as it doesn't account for usage and strenght of opposition.

How does it take into account for things like penalties drawn and penalties taken. McDavid for example has drawn 18 penalties while taking 6. Danault on the other hand has drawn 2 and taken 6. Because while little things like that aren’t accounted for in the goal column during even strength they eventually lead to goals for or against.

 

[LaP]

It's because most people who use expected stats ignore that further context is needed because certain systems and player habits will tend to register high danger area chances that are not of high quality, but are counted on the same footing, vice-versa on defense.

That's why it should always be tied with GF%, to give an idea of how far or close their expected stat is to the true output. Even then, there's always additional context needed as it doesn't account for usage and strenght of opposition.

The main problem with those stats is they do not account for the offensive quality of players. I'll take a one timer shot from a bad angle from prime Ovechkin on the PP before a shot straight from the slot alone from Paul Byron (not from a breakaway). Like you said context matters.

I've seen so many times weak shots counting as high danger scoring chances where there was close to 0% chance a NHL goalie would have let it in. I have no problem with advance stats they can be useful but they are so often mis-interpreted it's crazy. Any chart putting Tatar close to McJesus without explanation is doom to fail. I'm ok with Tatar but he's no Jere Lethinen. As for the offense let's get serious here ...

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Danault has always sucked offensively and produced because his wingers could pot goals. End of story. He's a crappier version of David Legwand.

His inflated assists do not pass the eye test. Not a lick of his play indicates "good playmaker".

His goal scoring was never there. It is rather pathetic that he has gone on the first line and cannot outscore Eller in a third line role and reduced minutes.

 

[CHfan1]

Normand Flynn making a fool of himself on Le 5 a 7

doubling down on Danault starting OT.....everyone against him....even Gaston

How’s he defending it, especially after the result. The Jets won the faceoff, had a 2 on 1 within the first 10 seconds, hit the post, then scored in 36 seconds.

Video below, OT starts 7:45

 

[abo9]

I'll try to spread objectively positive vibes.

Can we all agree that Danault is at the very least a solid 3rd liner? Usually I mean, most players have a bad year.
Ok, so we all agree on that. Well, Danault costs us the hefty price of Thomas Fleishmann and Dale Weise at the end of their careers. Yeah nothing more.

After doing terrible in the Hawks' system, he manages to turn his career around in Montreal, where he has some good success. The least we can do, is hope MB gets a big haul for him a the TDL and wish him the best of luck in the future!

And if he walks for nothing, I think it would suck, but he gave us much more than Fleishmann and Weise could at that point of their careers.

I've always said that as long as he was our top C, we would go nowhere (we've been nowhere with Plekanec as our top C and he was better). Well, times have changed and we have Suzuki who's without a doubt better, and KK who's on a good path. Do you hear that? We are upgrading at C!!!! I'm 24, it's the first time in my life that I see Montreal's center line being upgraded instead of downgraded! It feels really good to be able to look for a better future, and a little bit of the merit comes to Danault, who's been holding the fort during arguably Montreal's worst stretch of 5 seasons in > 100 years of history.

Congrats Danault, and good luck with your new team!*

I*f you ask for $4-5M I'd be stocked to keep you as a 3rd line C though. Please reconsider

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I'll try to spread objectively positive vibes.

Can we all agree that Danault is at the very least a solid 3rd liner? Usually I mean, most players have a bad year.
Ok, so we all agree on that. Well, Danault costs us the hefty price of Thomas Fleishmann and Dale Weise at the end of their careers. Yeah nothing more.

After doing terrible in the Hawks' system, he manages to turn his career around in Montreal, where he has some good success. The least we can do, is hope MB gets a big haul for him a the TDL and wish him the best of luck in the future!

And if he walks for nothing, I think it would suck, but he gave us much more than Fleishmann and Weise could at that point of their careers.

I've always said that as long as he was our top C, we would go nowhere (we've been nowhere with Plekanec as our top C and he was better). Well, times have changed and we have Suzuki who's without a doubt better, and KK who's on a good path. Do you hear that? We are upgrading at C!!!! I'm 24, it's the first time in my life that I see Montreal's center line being upgraded instead of downgraded! It feels really good to be able to look for a better future, and a little bit of the merit comes to Danault, who's been holding the fort during arguably Montreal's worst stretch of 5 seasons in > 100 years of history.

Congrats Danault, and good luck with your new team!*

I*f you ask for $4-5M I'd be stocked to keep you as a 3rd line C though. Please reconsider

just no

 

[abo9]

just no

 

[The Great Weal]

just no

Lol because of 1 season? Come on. Even Toffoli had a terrible year with LA scoring just 13 goals in 82 games as a sniper. Happens to much better players too. This year, ya he's not even 3rd line center material. I don't know why anybody would be shocked if Danault plays well at the same level as the past 2 seasons next year.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Lol because of 1 season? Come on. Even Toffoli had a terrible year with LA scoring just 13 goals in 82 games as a sniper. Happens to much better players too. This year, ya he's not even 3rd line center material. I don't know why anybody would be shocked if Danault plays well at the same level as the past 2 seasons next year.

Danault had good seasons because he got carried by 2 wingers. Danault is not the reason why Tatar and Gallagher scored both 30 goals. Im sorry to dissapoint you. But Gallagher and Tatar are mediocre this season and coincidence Danault is a complete blackhole. Don't care he's a problem. The coaching staff and org keep playing over and over and over and over. We are going nowehre in the last 5 years and until the day he will play 12min a game will be when habs take a good direction.

It's been a f***ing year since he scored. If his name was Phillip Gomez , you would probably roast him like mrb1p does. He's overrated by french media and never gets in trouble , like Carey Price. It's getting annoying , it's not working with him as a center here. Also who cares if he had 50 points in a season that habs were sinking top 5 in the league. He was playing 19min a game with best wingers. Give him Armia and Lekhonen for an entire season , let's see whos complete dogshit after that.

Dude has no offensive talent , I think this was proved once more during OT last game. He's god damn clueless and even his primary assists most of the sime are pee-wee passing and the goalscorer makes all the play. He's rarely the reason that he drops a Markov pass into someone stick and the player bury it. Grind grind grind grind grind muffin shots. Expect a garbage goal coming from him soon enough , then everybody will start praising him again and the media will say he's great for habs because he scored a goal.

Always the same circle. suck 40 games , play 2 good games = everything before those 2 games are deleted.

Same as Armia , dude sucks 6 games in a row , people want him to scratch him , score 2 goals ''Armia is always great for us'' I saw that like 10 times against Winnipeg when he scored 2 goals and still was invisible.

 

[Tyson]

Vets should be ashamed of themselves for the major chokefest they have displayed.