Confirmed with Link: [PHI/WPG] Kevin Hayes UFA rights for a 2019 5th

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Outlaw Samurai

FROST WARNING in effect
Jun 24, 2018
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"Blocked" is the word you're looking for.

You can make up fantasies all day about coaches/GMs doing the right thing, letting superior youth play, trading away useless players to make room, and never letting someone get usage they don't deserve... but we know better than that.

This is the reality of our team presently. I would love to be proven wrong but until then, I'm expecting to be frustrated by how ice time/usage is justified.

Don't hate the player just the potential of him here for 6-7 years and blocking Frost/NP..etc from increased usage. He was AV's pet, people don't see that being a POTENTIAL concern?
 
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Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
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This is the reality of our team presently. I would love to be proven wrong but until then, I'm expecting to be frustrated by how ice time/usage is justified.

Don't hate the player just the potential of him here for 6-7 years and blocking Frost/NP..etc from increased usage. He was AV's pet, people don't see that being a POTENTIAL concern?
Many have already forgotten the severity of our coaching and goaltending problems from the last few years. They've convinced themselves that the skaters are a problem and that we need big changes to turn the team around.
 

Appleyard

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Mar 5, 2010
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Unless Patrick busts, there's no way Hayes consistently sniffs 50 points in Philly.

He'll take harder 5v5 minutes and won't be on PP1 and may not get many PP2 minutes.

This was a move to fill an immediate need but, like JVR last year, was a move that should have been made if the need was still there when the team was ready to contend.

Maybe not... but he is good EV scorer who was getting ~40pts average a year as a 3rd liner with no regular PP time.

And I doubt he blocks anyone, as he can move to wing, where he has also played in the past.

And I guess there is some thought that they cannot wait too much longer with Giroux+Voracek... especially with Couturier's explosion over last two years, and a D group that due to their age is on paper ready to break out.

And each year the UFA class of centres who are not "old" and can play a top 6 role to a legit degree is generally 2-3 players. Heck, the 2020 class is already down to basically Backstrom, Granlund, Schenn and *maybe* Coyle, and 2021 is RNH and Stepan. Though a couple of current RFA's might join them,
 
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Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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Didn't say it'll 100% happen but with every move like this it just increases the chances.

And Patrick's scoring last year isn't an excuse. He's a young player and development takes time, so those numbers are only relevant if you don't think he's going to be better next year. I have faith in him because of what he's showed in his first two years, although inconsistently. I see no reason to doubt him, just like I didn't doubt Couturier, Schenn, Sanheim, etc. when those guys came up and weren't perfect immediately. Clearly the team doesn't have faith in him so this move gets made.

Our future depends on guys like Patrick, Frost, Farabee, and Myers becoming legit players. Anything that has a chance of hindering or delaying that is a potential problem if handled poorly.

On the flip side, this could be a very good signing and help us a lot, I'm certainly not ruling that out. But it all depends on AV and Fletcher, which is where the doubt comes in.
Patrick is not just a young player. He was the #2 overall pick AND touted as being the most NHL ready. His rookie season, you can understand teh early season struggles due to not being able to train in the offseason...and he clearly was much better from Feb-onward....playing at a 52 point pace.

So then when he once again plays like garbage....11 points in 38 games to start the season, it's a major disappointment. Then he turns thins around....only to end the year with 1 point in his last 9 games.

What Patrick has proven, is that he can't be trusted to be consistent or start the season on time. That's mostly on him. And you can understand why a new coach or GM doesn't want to just sit and "hope" when they have another option. Especially when even if he DOES have a good season, you are also betting that Frost has no issues as a rookie.

I have said that as early as a year from now, Hayes might be being outplayed by the 2 kids. But it's quite possible he isn't either especially this year. This year, not likely. 2 years from now, maybe. 3 years from now, should be.

Ultimately, the person who could suffer from Patrick's inconsistency, is Frost. If Patrick saw a 50 point C this past year and looked great, they likely just run with Frost knowing their top 2 C spots are locked in. But now it's up to Frost to show that he is more than ready. And maybe he starts in the AHL...like Giroux did...and show he is the real deal.

In the end, we all want Patrick to be a dominant 2-way 60 C and Frost a 60+ offensive guy. Hayes won't get in the way....just like JT, Nelson and Lee didn't stop Barzal. Show your stuff kid.
 

hatcher

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
12,377
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Patrick is not just a young player. He was the #2 overall pick AND touted as being the most NHL ready. His rookie season, you can understand teh early season struggles due to not being able to train in the offseason...and he clearly was much better from Feb-onward....playing at a 52 point pace.

So then when he once again plays like garbage....11 points in 38 games to start the season, it's a major disappointment. Then he turns thins around....only to end the year with 1 point in his last 9 games.

What Patrick has proven, is that he can't be trusted to be consistent or start the season on time. That's mostly on him. And you can understand why a new coach or GM doesn't want to just sit and "hope" when they have another option. Especially when even if he DOES have a good season, you are also betting that Frost has no issues as a rookie.

I have said that as early as a year from now, Hayes might be being outplayed by the 2 kids. But it's quite possible he isn't either especially this year. This year, not likely. 2 years from now, maybe. 3 years from now, should be.

Ultimately, the person who could suffer from Patrick's inconsistency, is Frost. If Patrick saw a 50 point C this past year and looked great, they likely just run with Frost knowing their top 2 C spots are locked in. But now it's up to Frost to show that he is more than ready. And maybe he starts in the AHL...like Giroux did...and show he is the real deal.

In the end, we all want Patrick to be a dominant 2-way 60 C and Frost a 60+ offensive guy. Hayes won't get in the way....just like JT, Nelson and Lee didn't stop Barzal. Show your stuff kid.
Injuries are playing a part in his play. Everytime he gets touched he's hurt and thats why he shy's away alot during a game. This is a big year for him.
 

flyers0909

Nothing Matters
Jul 10, 2007
3,200
5,237
Lolz.

I am a moron; looked at his Rangers and Jets stats apart instead of together for 18/19.

So he hit 50 once, in a contract year. Not expecting that to repeat if he was a true 2C, which is unlikely in Philly, anyway.

Point stands: hard pass on Hayes from me.
Season Points/60 NHL Ranking among Fs (with at least 400 5-on-5 minutes)
2018-19 2.21 54th (mid-tier first liner)
2017-18 1.96 83rd (low-end first liner)
2016-17 1.60 143rd (mid-tier second liner)
2015-16 1.88 75th (low-end first liner)
2014-15 2.33 20th (high-end first liner)

Sorry I can't format this since I'm posting from work but this is from Charlie's article on the signing. He's consistently produced pretty good numbers at ES over the past 5 years. Looking at total points shouldn't really mean too much considering he won't sniff PP1 here and isn't even a lock for PP2 duties.
 

Jettany

Registered User
Feb 21, 2018
2,701
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Patrick is not just a young player. He was the #2 overall pick AND touted as being the most NHL ready. His rookie season, you can understand teh early season struggles due to not being able to train in the offseason...and he clearly was much better from Feb-onward....playing at a 52 point pace.

So then when he once again plays like garbage....11 points in 38 games to start the season, it's a major disappointment. Then he turns thins around....only to end the year with 1 point in his last 9 games.

What Patrick has proven, is that he can't be trusted to be consistent or start the season on time. That's mostly on him. And you can understand why a new coach or GM doesn't want to just sit and "hope" when they have another option. Especially when even if he DOES have a good season, you are also betting that Frost has no issues as a rookie.

I have said that as early as a year from now, Hayes might be being outplayed by the 2 kids. But it's quite possible he isn't either especially this year. This year, not likely. 2 years from now, maybe. 3 years from now, should be.

Ultimately, the person who could suffer from Patrick's inconsistency, is Frost. If Patrick saw a 50 point C this past year and looked great, they likely just run with Frost knowing their top 2 C spots are locked in. But now it's up to Frost to show that he is more than ready. And maybe he starts in the AHL...like Giroux did...and show he is the real deal.

In the end, we all want Patrick to be a dominant 2-way 60 C and Frost a 60+ offensive guy. Hayes won't get in the way....just like JT, Nelson and Lee didn't stop Barzal. Show your stuff kid.
Well said.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
90,277
156,937
Pennsylvania
Patrick is not just a young player. He was the #2 overall pick AND touted as being the most NHL ready. His rookie season, you can understand teh early season struggles due to not being able to train in the offseason...and he clearly was much better from Feb-onward....playing at a 52 point pace.

So then when he once again plays like garbage....11 points in 38 games to start the season, it's a major disappointment. Then he turns thins around....only to end the year with 1 point in his last 9 games.

What Patrick has proven, is that he can't be trusted to be consistent or start the season on time. That's mostly on him. And you can understand why a new coach or GM doesn't want to just sit and "hope" when they have another option. Especially when even if he DOES have a good season, you are also betting that Frost has no issues as a rookie.

I have said that as early as a year from now, Hayes might be being outplayed by the 2 kids. But it's quite possible he isn't either especially this year. This year, not likely. 2 years from now, maybe. 3 years from now, should be.

Ultimately, the person who could suffer from Patrick's inconsistency, is Frost. If Patrick saw a 50 point C this past year and looked great, they likely just run with Frost knowing their top 2 C spots are locked in. But now it's up to Frost to show that he is more than ready. And maybe he starts in the AHL...like Giroux did...and show he is the real deal.

In the end, we all want Patrick to be a dominant 2-way 60 C and Frost a 60+ offensive guy. Hayes won't get in the way....just like JT, Nelson and Lee didn't stop Barzal. Show your stuff kid.
Like I keep saying, you’re being overly optimistic when it comes to coaches and GMs.

You can blindly hope that when a player shows they’re capable that they’ll be used appropriately, but time after time after time after time we’ve seen that this isn’t what happens. Good players get underused, other players get favoritism.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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Rather block someone because we have too many good players than always never have enough.

Giroux didn't get blocked by Richards/Carter/Briere. So you can't talk in absolutes like it 100% will happen. And as I said before, if Patrick didn't have such a ****ty year, we likely don't make this move. Going into a season with one C unknown is one thing. Going into it with 2 is a recipe for disaster.

Well, I guess we could have just added the next Weal instead.

Needing to overcome good players on the roster is far better than being kept off the roster for no reason at all too.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
79,231
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Nova Scotia
Like I keep saying, you’re being overly optimistic when it comes to coaches and GMs.

You can blindly hope that when a player shows they’re capable that they’ll be used appropriately, but time after time after time after time we’ve seen that this isn’t what happens. Good players get underused, other players get favoritism.
Might as well trade Farabee then since he has to beat out Hartman someday. In fact, why are we even drafting players?

Seriously, you are taking it to the extreme. Yes every coach has favorites. But you seem to want a full roster of 19-23 year olds so only youth can play. Did Barzal play in NYI? Pettersson play in Vancouver? Be a great player, and you will play. Be an inconsistent player who scores 11 points in 38 games all while on a scoring line, and expect to be handled differently.

We possibly added a 45-55 point C. If Patrick was already that, we wouldn't have. And if Patrick becomes a 50 point player this year, well then we will have a great C spine for teams to deal with.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
130,351
170,900
Armored Train
i think that's why doing full rebuilds through the draft is dangerous because if you dont hit every player, it creates more holes and more likely you are never going to compete, it's better to just keep the players have hit and add on to them and when the time comes you replenish the prospect pool again and add more talent on this team from creating more holes.

Yeah and getting every single necessary prime to line up right when you need it is just unlikely.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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Nova Scotia
Put Patrick on PP1 and he won't have 11 points in 38 games.
And? So we should help bump up his numbers when he isn't doing anything at ES? On Jan 13rd Patrick had:

4 less points than Laughton
1 less points than Hagg
THE SAME amount of points as Weise
A worse PPG than Weal

At what point does Patrick actually take accountability for the season he just had? Hopefully he is pissed about being awful again for half a season and not being gifted teh #2C role next year. Come to camp a different player and take that #2C spot from Hayes. Clearly gifting it to him has not worked.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
79,231
87,012
Nova Scotia
Flat out, Patrick has 51 ES points in 2 years. He has not earned the right to have the #2 spot gifted to him. That's on him because he has certainly played with the wingers to produce way more.
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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And? So we should help bump up his numbers when he isn't doing anything at ES? On Jan 13rd Patrick had:

4 less points than Laughton
1 less points than Hagg
THE SAME amount of points as Weise
A worse PPG than Weal

At what point does Patrick actually take accountability for the season he just had? Hopefully he is pissed about being awful again for half a season and not being gifted teh #2C role next year. Come to camp a different player and take that #2C spot from Hayes. Clearly gifting it to him has not worked.
The reactions that have balked at Hayes because he allegedly will harm Patrick are exactly what I refer to when I say many fans care more about the statistics & treatment of their favorite players than the success of the team.
 
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