Confirmed with Link: [PHI/WPG] Kevin Hayes UFA rights for a 2019 5th

[Tripod]

They don’t count...

Hey...keep him off the #1 PP keeps his points down and makes his contract cheaper. JVR deserves that spot over him anyways.

 

[YEM]

Some people on this board are worse than the worst hockey parents. If a player is good enough, he won't be blocked by anyone.

haven't we personally seen a few examples of good young players being blocked by dead-weight round here?

 

[Appleyard]

Flat out, Patrick has 51 ES points in 2 years. He has not earned the right to have the #2 spot gifted to him. That's on him because he has certainly played with the wingers to produce way more.

Plus we have seen in both seasons for ~35-40 game spans that he has it in him... as a 19-20 year old.

It is just the consistency. And if he can get that consistent level next season with addition of Hayes that is a fantastic 1-2-3 punch.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

haven't we personally seen a few examples of good young players being blocked by dead-weight round here?

Absolutely but like I said a few pages back I wouldn’t lump Hayes in with the likes of those players since he’s legitimately a good player.

If we signed Tyler Myers for example that would be more of what we’ve seen over the years.

 

[Angry Hockey Dad]

Some people on this board are worse than the worst hockey parents. If a player is good enough, he won't be blocked by anyone.

Stop treating these players like they're your children.

Patrick is my son

 

[Tripod]

The reactions that have balked at Hayes because he allegedly will harm Patrick are exactly what I refer to when I say many fans care more about the statistics & treatment of their favorite players than the success of the team.

This, I agree with. As I said, we all want Patrick to be a dominant 2-way 60 point C. And most think he can get there based on the small sample sizes where he HAS looked great. But in no way is it a given to happen this coming year, or the next. He simply has not shown the consistency to do it all season.

Plus, we WILL have injuries. Patrick missed 9 and 10 games. SO next year that happens again and we have Laughton for our #2c? And unproven Frost? JVR missed 18 games. If that happens again we have depth to cover it and don't have to ice Varone, Bailey, Knight, Lehtera(combined for 108 games last year). Not to mention Weise(42), , Goule(2), etc...

We had over 160 games played by players who are all borderline trash ..at forward. We can find game AND ICETIME for Hayes, Patrick and Frost.

 

[Striiker]

Might as well trade Farabee then since he has to beat out Hartman someday. In fact, why are we even drafting players?

Seriously, you are taking it to the extreme. Yes every coach has favorites. But you seem to want a full roster of 19-23 year olds so only youth can play. Did Barzal play in NYI? Pettersson play in Vancouver? Be a great player, and you will play. Be an inconsistent player who scores 11 points in 38 games all while on a scoring line, and expect to be handled differently.

We possibly added a 45-55 point C. If Patrick was already that, we wouldn't have. And if Patrick becomes a 50 point player this year, well then we will have a great C spine for teams to deal with.

Or just don't go out and target players like Hartman and then overpay for Hayes? The worst part isn't even the players but instead that these moves expose his mindset... which is a bad one.

And yeah, clearly I want a roster full of 19-23 year olds. You know, kids like Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, JVR, Ghost, and Gudas. I hate all those guys constantly campaign for them to be traded.

But that's fine. Everyone can be a shortsighted as they want and just worry about the past and one upcoming year. Patrick was recovering from injury in his first year and inconsistent in his second, which is unheard of for a 20 year old, so patience has run out. We can just ignore what a disaster the team was during that time (2nd worst in the league and giving up the 3rd most goals against), unrelated to him, and the effect that had on all the players. How the lineup was constantly getting screwed with, he wasn't even playing 15 minutes per game, and how he admitted his confidence was suffering. But hey, he was a 2nd overall pick, so he should have rose above all this pesky context and dominated.

 

[Outlaw Samurai]

Hayes will definitely help the team, no question. I'm usually a glass half full kind of guy but this team has eroded my optimism exponentially.

Hopefully Hayes will push NP to start the season strong and improve inconsistencies. If Frost has to earn his spot, it's on him to impress.

Hope I'm wrong as it's a new coaching staff, but if some kind of Groundhog Day occurs (like Hogg cemented in the line up/top 4 for no logical reason) transpires, it will be a long season/contract.

(Yes, Hayes is a much better player than Hogg)

 

[Striiker]

Flat out, Patrick has 51 ES points in 2 years. He has not earned the right to have the #2 spot gifted to him. That's on him because he has certainly played with the wingers to produce way more.

ok Jtown

 

[46zone]

haven't we personally seen a few examples of good young players being blocked by dead-weight round here?

We have, but Hayes isn't dead weight. If Patrick makes the jump we expect him to then he won't have his time "blocked".

 

[Outlaw Samurai]

Or just don't go out and target players like Hartman and then overpay for Hayes? The worst part isn't even the players but instead that these moves expose his mindset... which is a bad one.

And yeah, clearly I want a roster full of 19-23 year olds. You know, kids like Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, JVR, Ghost, and Gudas. I hate all those guys constantly campaign for them to be traded.

But that's fine. Everyone can be a shortsighted as they want and just worry about the past and one upcoming year. Patrick was recovering from injury in his first year and inconsistent in his second, which is unheard of for a 20 year old, so patience has run out. We can just ignore what a disaster the team was during that time (2nd worst in the league and giving up the 3rd most goals against), unrelated to him, and the effect that had on all the players. How the lineup was constantly getting screwed with, he wasn't even playing 15 minutes per game, and how he admitted his confidence was suffering. But hey, he was a 2nd overall pick, so he should have rose above all this pesky context and dominated.

This is what worries me too. I'm not confident Fletch will be savvy enough with trades/signings.

 

[Striiker]

We have, but Hayes isn't dead weight. If Patrick makes the jump we expect him to then he won't have his time "blocked".

And you know this how?

I could list a bunch of players we've seen blocked in just the last year or two.

 

[Tripod]

. But hey, he was a 2nd overall pick, so he should have rose above all this pesky context and dominated.

No one asked him to dominate...but he for sure should be able to outproduce Laughton and Hagg over a 40 game stretch, right???

You only want to see the side where Patrick puts it all together in year 3 AND Frost has a good rookie season. What if neither happens? Waht is Patrick had a modest uptick of anotjheother 5-6 ES points and is a 35 point guy. And Frost shows he is not NHL ready? Then what? Then we have Couts, 35 point Patrick, 30 point Laughton, and unproven Pimp. What could go wrong.

Again, this is gives us a 1, 2, 3 and 4 centers. It's on Patrick to show he too is a #2C. He hasn't yet, but has it in him. We all know that. So go do it and we will deal with having too many good centers at a later date.

 

[Striiker]

This is what worries me too. I'm not confident Fletch will be savvy enough with trades/signings.

If he were smart he'd see what he has in this roster now that there's a new coaching staff. But instead he's making changes based on play under two horrific non-NHL coaches.

 

[Tripod]

ok Jtown

Am I wrong? It's not like Patrick has not had Jake or TK on his right side and one of G, JVR and Lindblom on his left.

He played in a scoring role, and didn't produce. It's pretty simple to see.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

This isn’t an indictment on Patrick going forward but it’s not like his situation was anywhere similar to Sanheim. Who was getting buried on the third pair playing with third & fourth liners primarily while Hagg & MacDonald were in the top four.

Patrick fortunately is the type of player that wont get discriminated by coaches in this league if he’s playing well.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It's fascinating to me how many ways Fletcher's approach to player development is similar to Hextall's, yet both sides of that old debate see this a paradigm shift in organizational philosophy. Life is weird.

 

[CapnZin]

You're expecting Hayes to score 25-30 goals when he has only cracked 20 goals once in his career and has never hit 50 points in a season.

Remember how everyone complained about how offensively challenged Couturier was? Hayes actually is that guy. He's a decent all around player, a guy who probably deserves the contract Couts currently has more than the overpayment he's going to get.

How is Hayes going to get to 25 goals on a regular basis when he's definitely not playing PP1 and will almost certainly be the 3C shortly, if not immediately.

I dread this potential signing and am hoping Hayes just walks away on July 1.

He hit 55 points last year.

My projection for a:

JVR - Hayes - Voracek line

Hayes: 16G - 26A - 42P.

 

[Striiker]

No one asked him to dominate...but he for sure should be able to outproduce Laughton and Hagg over a 40 game stretch, right???

You only want to see the side where Patrick puts it all together in year 3 AND Frost has a good rookie season. What if neither happens? Waht is Patrick had a modest uptick of anotjheother 5-6 ES points and is a 35 point guy. And Frost shows he is not NHL ready? Then what? Then we have Couts, 35 point Patrick, 30 point Laughton, and unproven Pimp. What could go wrong.

Again, this is gives us a 1, 2, 3 and 4 centers. It's on Patrick to show he too is a #2C. He hasn't yet, but has it in him. We all know that. So go do it and we will deal with having too many good centers at a later date.

What if Hayes becomes a 30 point player? What if Couturier gets injured or regresses? Should be give up a ton for a 1C just in case? You can rationalize a lot by only worrying about the worst case scenario.

What if Patrick does play more consistent now that he's away from Hakstol and becomes what we expect him to be? Too late. We already committed a lot of cap and years to Hayes. Tough luck kid.

And have fun in Lehigh Valley, Frost. Even if Patrick cements himself as 2C and pushes Hayes to 3C, you don't even have a shot anymore.

 

[46zone]

And you know this how?

I could list a bunch of players we've seen blocked in just the last year or two.

I'm sure you could, but Patrick isn't a dime-a-dozen player like Vorobyev or NAK, and has a better pedigree than any other young player on the roster aside from Provorov (though that's debatable).

The Flyers invested the 2nd overall pick in Patrick and his progression is very important for the future of the team. He's still going to be surrounded by good wings as the 3C and will get PP time. He's not going to be exiled to the 4th line.

 

[Appleyard]

This isn’t an indictment on Patrick going forward but it’s not like his situation was anywhere similar to Sanheim who was getting buried for god knows what reason.

Yeh, I feel that Lindblom and Sanheim were pretty different circumstances.

His career splits are so completely crazy as well after two years:

October-December: 62gp, 7g, 18p (9g, 24p pace)
January-April: 83gp, 19g, 43p (18g, 42p pace)

Just bizarre. Though PP usage played into it in 1st season to a degree.

 

[DancingPanther]

Willie Mays Hayes is a middle six player who is probably going to be paid like a top 6 player which is where most are against this move

Like BiggE said I'll reserve my final judgement until the book is closed on negotiations but I'm not expecting to be blown away

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

On Hockey Central on Hayes deal:

Fletch has a handle that they can sign him.
He would be a good fit.
If you are Flyers fan, this is good news.
Somewhere Nolan Patrick is saying "damn"
Hayes does a lot of good things on the ice, in all 3 zones and on the PP and PK

His career high in powerplay points was 11 this year and he never had more than 8 before that. He's not going to get quality PP minutes in Philly.

Basically, this signing will come down to $6+ million a year for a defensively responsible centre who will only get near 50 points if Nolan Patrick busts.

Hayes will not be a stop gap signing, but he is a good guy to further the depth of your centres. I would rather someone else overpay this guy because if we're all being honest, the Flyers aren't a contender in 19/20 unless at least one other significant move is made for a 1D.

You build through the draft and fill holes through FA and trades when you're ready to make a run. This team just isn't there yet, unless they bag Karlsson, too.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Maybe I’m looking at this in a selfish way.

Cap issues, and whatever else aside.

Hayes is a boring/vanilla/another average skating dude that’s now added to a team that had too much of that anyway.

I guess it helps, but it does nothing to get me excited. Wooo.

I kind of think he’s a redundant piece on a club that already struggled with a lack of speed and a lot of guys who have trouble handling the puck creatively (creating).

 

[rinaldo]

I mean, I think there is a good chance he does if they offer say $6m or so.

AV is here and he therefore knows fundamentals of system.
He knows he will be the 2C.
He knows he likely gets to play with 2/3 of JvR, Voracek and Konecny.
He is back on the East coast and closer to home.
While other teams are better than the Flyers I imagine a lot of players know of the "visible" potential, especially since he has played versus them quite a lot.

Not sure too many teams can offer the combo of linemates, 2C spot guaranteed, and have the cap space for him, on the east coast.

so you think the flyers are offering him less than 6m?