Contract Termination: [PHI] F Ryan Johansen placed on waivers by the Flyers for the purpose of contract termination (Johansen grieving)

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Has any NHL team ever successfully proven a material breach? It seems like they always end up settling or losing in the end and have to pay the player and potentially take a cap penalty.

We did with Jake Dotchin.

 

[mouser]

When has a team claimed this, that led to a cap panalty?

Not saying it hasn't happened. Genuinely curious as I'm not aware of it ATM.

Mike Richards (LAK) and Evander Kane (SJS) are two recent examples. I believe Corey Perry’s potential grievance against Chicago is still outstanding.

 

[kingpest19]

Ok?

Dancing and lifting your wife is not the same as playing professional hockey at the highest level though.

It's not but if you are someone with a hip injury that is so bad it requires extensive surgery, according to his agent, doing something that stresses the hips probably isn't the best idea.

View attachment 902215

 

[barriers]

We did with Jake Dotchin.

No, the Lightning and NHLPA settled before it went to arbitration. The settlement was not disclosed.

 

[mouser]

Contracts have weird stipulations in them, especially when they involve pro athletes and outside activities that could involve injuries. I know for example a lot of players across the big 4 sports aren't allowed to do things like skiing/snowboarding.

I don't remember the specifics, but I know there was an issue where Ilya Samsonov hurt himself on an ATV and Washington was not happy about it.

I want to preface this by saying this isn't a fat joke, I've never seen RyJo's wife. But it's certainly plausible that a contract could have wording that'd be interpreted as prohibiting actions such as dancing or lifting weights over a certain amount.

The NHL already has a precedent on this. Contracts are guaranteed against injury which occurred as a result of the player’s employment as a hockey player.

Some example injuries that would be guaranteed:
- Injured on ice or during practice.
- Injured during offseason workouts related to fitness to play hockey.
- Injured in a car accident driving to practice or game day.
- Injured on a NHL road game trip (unless there was some gross negligence by the player)
- Injured at a team charity event.

Some example things that would not be guaranteed:
- Injury in a ATV or car accident which did not involve the player traveling to a covered activity or event.
- Injury in athletic activity not directly related to hockey training/fitness (e.g. Voynov)
- Injury carelessly handling fireworks at a 4th of July party.

If a team believes a player was injured outside the scope of their hockey employment they have the option to suspend the player without pay until the player is fit to play again.

 

[mouser]

It would be interesting to see what the details of a standard player contract is and how it intertwines with the CBA.

As a former union steward with the Power Worker's Union, I'm very intrigued to see how each side is going to argue before an arbitrator. The Flyers have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Johansen intentionally created a material breach. Whether that's engaging in activities that would violate player's contract and CBA, missing treatments and/or doctor's appointments, or not reporting back to the Flyers medical staff in a timely fashion with regards to the injury treatment, the onus is going to be on them to prove the breach.

As for Johansen, there's going to be a discovery period where he's going to be forced to answer questions under oath. And you can bet he'll be asked about playing 63 games but was all of a sudden injured to the point he can no longer play just one day after playing a game and being traded.

I'm very interested to see the role that Overhardt played in this. If he had any hand in Johansen not honoring the contract or trying to get out of the contract, he could possibly be decertified as a result.

There's a lot of moving pieces here.

You can read the Standard Player Contract here in the CBA, Exhibit 1. Teams are not allowed to alter the mandatory CBA boilerplate SPC except for adding a No Movement/Trade Clause.

https://cdn.nhlpa.com/img/assets/file/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

What gets me is the double standard, if Bedard pulled the same crap as Perry I bet his contract wouldn't be terminated

If what John Scott claimed is anywhere close to accurate, my god what a stupid owner/management group they continue to be. They hid an actual crime and know( or have been informed) that was bad, so then Perry drunkenly hits on someone and they’re like “same! Same, we got this one! Also sweep it under the rug, full secrecy, no investigation, we have clearly learned!” Perry, not wanting a big legal case and just wanting to play a season or two more, accepts the bullshit and walks, that’s my read on it.

Again, maybe John Scott mischaracterized shit and it was way more nefarious- we don’t know, and while I absolutely understand secrecy and following proper procedure for crimes, that didn’t seem to occur with Perry. They ignored what happened to Beach and delayed, with Perry it was instantaneous, like what he did was so bad that the move was obvious (doubtful considering league did nothing and another team signed him) or it was a dumbass knee-jerk reaction.

Anywho, sorry, rant that’s been sittin there with no good outlet- point is I wouldn’t trust any employer for shit, at this point. They will try to find a way to f*** you to make $1 billion into $1.000000000001 billion.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

My guess is the Flyers are probably trying to finalize their training camp roster and Johansen is probably saying he's injured and won't be attending. The Flyers are saying "hey, you weren't injured when we traded for you (since you literally played the entire game the night before), so any injury you acquired would have been outside of hockey."

Curious how this plays out.

I am sure the Flyers players aren’t all that that sympathetic to the guy who is refusing to play with them.

Johansen had played in all of Colorado’s games leading up to the trade and was part of the Avalanche’s morning skate the day of the trade to Philadelphia.

Johansen did not want to be assigned to the AHL, as the Flyers weren’t aware of any injuries until he was waived to the Phantoms, then a mysterious injury pops up all of a sudden.

 

[Breakers]

Kane wanted his contract terminated because his debt was tied to the contract

sharks wanted him gone too.

only one who was pissed was his creditor

 

[Stephen]

I don't think "I wanted to play through my injuries on one team because that team was good, but now I refuse to report for another team that I'm contractually obligated to" is going to hold up to scrutiny.

Being too injured to play shouldn't be a matter of preference. Wouldn't that open up a major can of worms?

Not really. Guys like Carey Price and Shea Weber basically marched to the finals in 2021 while nursing career ending injuries. They played through it but the injuries were debilitating to the point where they needed surgeries and ended their careers afterwards. It happens.

Plus if we're going to talk about shenanigans, Philadelphia was compensated by Colorado to take on an undesirable contract in Johansen as part of the Walker deal, acquiring a first rounder to dispose of a negative asset. If you could void a contract like that, why couldn't the Avs have pulled the same stunt?

 

[Redpath]

Not really. Guys like Carey Price and Shea Weber basically marched to the finals in 2021 while nursing career ending injuries. They played through it but the injuries were debilitating to the point where they needed surgeries and ended their careers afterwards. It happens.

Plus if we're going to talk about shenanigans, Philadelphia was compensated by Colorado to take on an undesirable contract in Johansen as part of the Walker deal, acquiring a first rounder to dispose of a negative asset. If you could void a contract like that, why couldn't the Avs have pulled the same stunt?

Retiring at the end of a playoff run is a bit different than cashing in on an injury in the middle of a season coincidentally as soon as you change teams.

I'm not sure what point you think you're making with your Avs question. The Avs couldn't "pull the same stunt" because at no point during Johansen's Avalanche tenure did a similar situation occur (Unless I have missed something). If Colorado tried to waive him and assign him to the AHL, and Johansen came out and said "Yeah, I'm actually hurt." then they'd be comparable. And Colorado probably would have relished such an opportunity to get him off their books without paying a price to do so.

 

[JRichard]

Walker for a 1st was a fair and pretty common trade day deal.

Philly wasnt expecting Johansen to play the (fake) injury card. He was preparing to play the 64th game with the Avalanche.
Briere was aware Johansen would not be happy with the deal bc of Torts and going to a lottery team. But player didnt react like a pro.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Walker for a 1st was a fair and pretty common trade day deal.

Philly wasnt expecting Johansen to play the (fake) injury card. He was preparing to play the 64th game with the Avalanche.
Briere was aware Johansen would not be happy with the deal bc of Torts and going to a lottery team. But player didnt react like a pro.

You conveniently failed to mention that the Flyers never even gave him a chance to play and immediately sent him to the AHL.

I can understand a hockey player willing to play thru an injury trying to help his team in a P/O race decide he didn't want to risk aggravating the injury playing in the AHL. YMMV.

 

[TheNumber4]

Why did they even bother with the "material breach" reasoning? Chicago proved you could just cancel contracts out of thin air with REASONS UNKNOWN.

 

[Oddbob]

He played 63/63 games for Colorado then claimed he was injured right after the trade to avoid going to the AHL and being bought out after the season. Always seemed fake.

Just because a player plays doesn't mean they aren't hurt. Zetterberg played almost all of the games one season and he was hurt for over 40 of them.

 

[FadeToBlack]

The SPC very specifically outlines the procedure that has to be gone through to determine if the player is fit to play or not.

Here's my TLDR:

If you're hurt, you have to see a team doctor. The team doctor decides if you can play or not.

If your injury happened outside of hockey, you're suspended without pay until you're ready to play again.

If your injury happened during hockey stuff, your medical bills are paid and you get your paycheck/benefits/etc.

If the player disagrees with the team doctor, they have to give notice to the club that they want a second opinion no later than 5pm on the 3rd day after the team doctor fills out his paperwork. If the doc sends his paperwork after 5pm, they get until 5pm on the 4th day.

The club has to give the player his medical records at that point.

The player has to get that second opinion within 5 days unless they have good cause to miss that deadline. What constitutes good cause is not specified.

The players doc has to fill out paperwork which is given to the player and the team. The team doc and player doc have to have a meeting within 3 days of the player receiving his paperwork from his doctor.

If the two doctors agree on an outcome either way, they fill out some paperwork and that is conclusive and binding.

If the two doctors disagree, they gotta fill out some paperwork and send it to each other, the player, and the team. Further, the two doctors have to agree on an independent physician within the aforementioned 3 days. If they can't agree on a doctor, then the NHL and NHLPA reps agree on a doctor within 2 days of finding out about the situation.

This selected independent doctor gets all the paperwork so far. The player must be examined by this doctor as well within 5 days.

This independent doctors determination is final.

If either party fails to to timely comply with the requirements up there without good cause, they lose the case, essentially.

The determination of if its a hockey-related injury is up to a arbitrator, if it gets to that point.

 

[eramosat]

Yeah, both parties have at this point pretty much abandoned any of the niceties often observed in these sorts of team & player interactions.

Flyers had nothing left to lose. They could not trade him at the deadline, no matter the retention. Then, after the injury, they could not send him to the AHL and get cap relief in 2024, only LTIR relief. And then they could not buy out the remainder of his contract for 2025, due to the injury. At this point, anything less might be better, so why not. All this for a player they had just traded for, who had played in all of his former NHL team's games up to that point, whom they (by all reports) had no intention of rostering at the NHL level...no surprises, just their approach.

As for RyJo...he and his agent (and founder of an agency) have decided this path gets them the most bang for their buck. Not wanting to play in the AHL? Makes perfect sense, as do his desires for proper injury management, and retaining his future NHL playability. As for how it hand-cuffed Philly...well... the optics may be bad, re the instant injury after the trade, but nothing that untoward. As for negotiating his maximum future income....not sure if this was the best play. Maybe this thing going to arbitration is somehow their best play?

It is interesting that the Avalanche have no part in it. Can a team trade for a player without knowing that said player will simply not report, if traded (maybe) or demoted (actually), and instead claim season-ending injury? Can't you do anything to find out about this before the fact? Seems wrong, and I'm not sure that that type of risk could even legitimately be accepted.

 

[TheNumber4]

Kane wanted his contract terminated because his debt was tied to the contract

sharks wanted him gone too.

only one who was pissed was his creditor

Huh? Kane wanted his contract terminated? Then why did he appeal and have it reinstated winning his case against the Sharks?

 

[FadeToBlack]

The above process counts out to roughly 19 days start to finish. This nonsense has dragged on for five and a half months at this point.

If they're terminating his contract, there are three primary possibilities, none of which I'll discount, in most likely to least likely order, in my humble opinion;

RJO is in breach of the above terms. I'd guess he missed a deadline and they don't think his wedding/honeymoon is good cause.
They or their insurance company caught him doing something he shouldn't be able to do with his injury.
The team and its lawyers are incompetent.

 

[Rubi]

I hear bone spurs are very difficult to disprove. Get a note from his Dr and RyJo is golden.

 

[614 CBJ]

History rewind

RJ was benched in a playoff game when playing for the Cleveland Monsters

He's been selfish and entitled as f*** his entire career

He made his millions

But this was 90% a wasted career

 

[John Mandalorian]

Walker for a 1st was a fair and pretty common trade day deal.

Philly wasnt expecting Johansen to play the (fake) injury card. He was preparing to play the 64th game with the Avalanche.
Briere was aware Johansen would not be happy with the deal bc of Torts and going to a lottery team. But player didnt react like a pro.

You can’t assume Colorado would have done Walker for a 1st. Your estimation that this was a ballpark value is irrelevant.

 

[PanniniClaus]

It is buyer beware when you trade for a guy that never really cared about hockey.. or anything really , for his entire life.

If you were going to pick a guy trying to milk disability benefits, he would be your poster child.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Just because a player plays doesn't mean they aren't hurt. Zetterberg played almost all of the games one season and he was hurt for over 40 of them.

But if he was healthy enough to play in Colorado, why was he not healthy enough to play in Lehigh? So is it really about an injury?

Also, at what point does the player have an obligation to report it? If it’s not reported by the player until sent to Lehigh, how much of the CBA even applies?

If he had reported in a timely fashion, wouldn’t that mean Colorado could have LTIRed him and not pay a 2nd to Philadelphia to take him?

 

[Oddbob]

But if he was healthy enough to play in Colorado, why was he not healthy enough to play in Lehigh? So is it really about an injury?

Also, at what point does the player have an obligation to report it? If it’s not reported by the player until sent to Lehigh, how much of the CBA even applies?

If he had reported in a timely fashion, wouldn’t that mean Colorado could have LTIRed him and not pay a 2nd to Philadelphia to take him?

Playing through an injury on a team going somewhere is worth it to lots of players, rather than playing banged up on an AHL team. Not saying this is the case, but playing through an injury usually needs some motivation or reason to. If a team is out of playoffs, playing banged up makes little sense. Thing is the Flyers placed him on waivers the day he was acquired, so they didn't have plans to use him and not hard to imagine a vet player that even with a minor injury isn't wanting to ride the bus in the AHL.

The LTIR stuff can sometimes play into next seasons cap hit, so maybe they just wanted him off the books. Maybe they also didn't want to pay him the money left on his deal.

Again he could be faking to get out of AHL assignment, but that will be hard to prove, as pretty much any player can be banged up and potentially hurt from playing hockey. Not saying I agree if he just didn't want to play in the AHL, but lots of vet players don't want to ride the bus in the AHL when they have had first class lifestyle of the NHL.