Phaneuf Discussion Thread - Civil Mode

[Pierre Gotye]

Fact. This player usage chart tells the entire story. Dion plays the against the toughest competition with most of his starts in the defensive zone out of necessity. We know he can't handle the minutes he gets, and to be honest, he struggles breaking out of the zone so he can't really handle the defensive zone starts either. If the leafs want to maximize Dion for at least 5 out of the 7 years he's gotten on his contract, he has to have more sheltered zone starts. He also can't be relied on to be the Chris Pronger of this team (Randy once again trying to put a square peg in a round hole). Yes, we need that guy who we can pair him with, or we need that guy to be paired with someone else, and have Dion exclusively in a sheltered offensive role similarly to the way a sensible coach would use Jake Gardiner.

The fact of the matter is Erik Karlsson has a worse turnover margin.

But he skates well and scores, so no one is ragging on him. He has a -38 turnover margin, which compared to Phaneuf is a lot.

Phil Kessel has a -48 turnover margin.

Dion Phaneuf has a -23 turnover margin, which, actually puts him in the above the middle of the pack among elite defenseman. Which is actually quite good.

These stats of course are skewed because of ice-time and zone starts and certain situations.

Nik Hjalmarsson for instance, someone most people think around the NHL is a really good defenseman has a -76 turnover differential, which is terrible.

Phaneuf has a better differential -23, than Doughty, who has a -63. Markov, a -42. Chara a -36, and Yandle a -25.

Truth be told, a -23 for a first pairing defenseman giving all the Leafs possession problems this season is actually very, very good.

 

[Teeder9]

The fact of the matter is Erik Karlsson has a worse turnover margine.

But he skates well and scores, so no one is ragging on him. He has a -38 turnover margin, which compared to Phaneuf is a lot.

Phil Kessel has a -48 turnover margin.

Dion Phaneuf has a -23 turnover margin, which, actually puts him in the middle of the pack among elite defenseman. Which is actually quite good.

These stats of course are skewed because of ice-time and zone starts and certain situations.

Nik Hjalmarsson for instance, someone most people think around the NHL is a really good defenseman has a -76 turnover differential, which is terrible.

Phaneuf has a better differential -23, than Doughty, who has a -63. Markov, a -42. Chara a -36, and Yandle a -25.

Truth be told, a -23 for a first pairing defenseman giving all the Leafs possession problems this season is actually very, very good.

Thank god no one in their right mind would trade Phaneuf for Doughty, Karlsson, or Chara. These stats really do work

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Thank god no one in their right mind would trade Phaneuf for Doughty, Karlsson, or Chara. These stats really do work

Why yes of course, because he's a plug and a pylon.

 

[Teeder9]

Why yes of course, because he's a plug and a pylon.

That's why? Who knew

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Other elite defenseman, who might be viewed as pylon's:

PK Subban. 24 takeaways, 78 giveaways. Ranks 661st overall. And last year's Norris winner.

 

[Teeder9]

Other elite defenseman, who might be viewed as pylon's:

PK Subban. 24 takeaways, 78 giveaways. Ranks 661st overall. And last year's Norris winner.

That's the stat I would have leaned on heavily as well

 

[ULF_55]

I think everyone realizes Phaneuf is a good defenseman!!!

However the eyeball test will tell you he has a lot of deficiencies and some Leafs' fans would like to see more than he is capable of providing.

Phaneuf is unlikely to improve overall, but he can concentrate on areas where he has his greatest strength and that would be to keep it simple and make safe plays. Concentrate on positioning as he doesn't have great mobility. He isn't tough so he should stay within his comfort zone, which I believe he has been doing by avoiding the tough dog pretense.

Now it really is up to Carlyle to utilize other defensemen, like putting Rielly and Gardiner out more on the PP's. Although some claimed because the PP once was good there is no reason to change it, other teams aren't idiots they adjust so really just keep doing what isn't working? Really?

 

[Mess]

I think everyone realizes Phaneuf is a good defenseman!!!

However the eyeball test will tell you he has a lot of deficiencies and some Leafs' fans would like to see more than he is capable of providing.

Phaneuf is unlikely to improve overall, but he can concentrate on areas where he has his greatest strength and that would be to keep it simple and make safe plays. Concentrate on positioning as he doesn't have great mobility. He isn't tough so he should stay within his comfort zone, which I believe he has been doing by avoiding the tough dog pretense.

Now it really is up to Carlyle to utilize other defensemen, like putting Rielly and Gardiner out more on the PP's. Although some claimed because the PP once was good there is no reason to change it, other teams aren't idiots they adjust so really just keep doing what isn't working? Really?

Fans tend to link Cap Hit to contribution to evaluate a player and in a Cap World, as it certainly is a contributing factor for team competitiveness.

Just because Phaneuf has the #8 highest cap hit among Dmen currently, and will be ranked #6 for next year 2014-15 it leaves the impression he is one of the best Dmen in the league based on his contract.

However as you pointed out Phaneuf has limitations in his game and at his age he is likely fully cooked as a player now and his points are already starting to decline before his new 7 year contract even kicks in.

Fans that watch him play have to lower their expectations and accept him for what he is, and then they won't be as disappointed with his play.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Phaneuf is a top 15 d man in this league...get him a Girardi type partner and we'd be singing his praises. He's been a rock for most of the season, last game not so much.

 

[TheJet11]

Let's talk about the way Dion seems to chase the game 90% of the time.

Dion has 109 PIM this season, a stat that tends to be lauded by fans to show toughness, aggression, even.. dare I say.."truculence". Unfortunately aside from two 10 minute misconducts, and 1 (count it.. 1!!!) fighting major this season, most of Dion's PIMs have been minor penalties. This means that he's spent 84 minutes in the box for minor infractions! Worst of all, the majority of those penalty calls were the result of Dion chasing the game (hooking, tripping, holding, slashing, interference, or high-sticking).

Now I'm all for our players playing a tough brand of hockey, but you simply can NOT put your team down a man that often.

I'm not trying to advocate for signing Dan Girardi in the offseasons just yet, but considering the fact that he plays similar minutes, against similar players, and has only 16 PIMs this season... I think he'd be a much more valuable option than Phaneuf, for the way he plays and also the way he avoids taking needless minor penalties.

Consider Shea Weber - arguably the best all-around defenseman in the world today - has taken only 9 minor penalties this season. Duncan Keith has taken 13. Dion Phaneuf???? 42!!!

Dion simply gets caught flat-footed, out of position, or drifting towards the puck much too often and as a result, finds himself sitting alone in the penalty box. I'm really starting to believe that it is Gunnarsson who is keeping Dion afloat, rather than the other way around...

I really think it is time for a change; Dion has got to go.

 

[Mess]

Phaneuf is a top 15 d man in this league...get him a Girardi type partner and we'd be singing his praises. He's been a rock for most of the season, last game not so much.

The Leafs are bottom 5 in goals against and 30th in shots against and about to set a new NHL all-time record for most shots surrendered against in a season. Leafs also have the 28th ranked PK.

Dion plays more minutes than any other Dman on the Leafs TOI/g, so how much of those negative figures can be attributed to him based on being on the ice while they occur?

Is it the rest of the D core that is at fault?

 

[ULF_55]

Phaneuf kind of reminds me of a dour Iafrate, without the wheels.

 

[LeafOfBread]

It's so obvious he is injured. Carlyle is running this guy into the ground, you can see it from the fact that lately if he falls down it takes him like a century to get up and he looks extremely laboured while doing so; his skating has also somehow gotten even worse these past few weeks, and he just looks slow to react in general. There's no way you go from playing like a top 10 d-man to a piece of crap on your own in the span of one month. Not to mention the constant 'maintenance days'.

I suppose Carlyle may not have a choice because of how poor the other defenders are on this team, but Phaneuf plays the hardest competition of ANY player in the entire league and gets the most minutes on our D, while having a partner that is a decent, but 2nd pairing stay at home guy.

Phaneuf needs a good mobile partner who can hold his own...a more mature Gardiner or Rielly would be what I'm referring to. Phaneuf can't drive possession purely on his own, and the fact that he always has to stay back and defend because Gunnar can't provide any possession either is the issue at hand.

 

[LeafOfBread]

The Leafs are bottom 5 in goals against and 30th in shots against and about to set a new NHL all-time record for most shots surrendered against in a season. Leafs also have the 28th ranked PK.

Dion plays more minutes than any other Dman on the Leafs TOI/g, so how much of those negative figures can be attributed to him based on being on the ice while they occur?

Is it the rest of the D core that is at fault?

Go to 'behindthenet.ca' and check out Leafs GA/60 numbers for the d-men. There's a significant drop-off after Phaneuf and Gunnarsson.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

It's so obvious he is injured. Carlyle is running this guy into the ground, you can see it from the fact that lately if he falls down it takes him like a century to get up and he looks extremely laboured while doing so; his skating has also somehow gotten even worse these past few weeks, and he just looks slow to react in general. There's no way you go from playing like a top 10 d-man to a piece of crap on your own in the span of one month.

I suppose Carlyle may not have a choice because of how poor the other defenders are on this team, but Phaneuf plays the hardest competition of ANY player in the entire league and gets the most minutes on our D, while having a partner that is a decent, but 2nd pairing stay at home guy.

Phaneuf needs a good mobile partner who can hold his own...a more mature Gardiner or Rielly would be what I'm referring to. Phaneuf can't drive possession purely on his own, and the fact that he always has to stay back and defend because Gunnar can't provide any possession either is the issue at hand.

When did that happen?

 

[LeafOfBread]

When did that happen?

You don't think he was playing like a top-10 guy earlier in the season? When weighting quality of competition, ice time, and looking at the Goals For/Goals Against numbers when he was on/off the ice, defensively he was among the very top for a long amount of time and the impact on the team especially was huge. Even with his recent struggles his numbers are still pretty good overall.

He was playing extremely well and if you don't believe it then so be it.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

You don't think he was playing like a top-10 guy earlier in the season? When weighting quality of competition, ice time, and looking at the Goals For/Goals Against numbers when he was on/off the ice, defensively he was among the very top for a long amount of time and the impact on the team especially was huge. Even with his recent struggles his numbers are still pretty good overall.

He was playing extremely well and if you don't believe it then so be it.

I never said he have not had periods this season when he have played well. But top 10? No chance. And saying he played extremely well is an exaggeration.
Going back a month before the Olympic break (Jan 7th - Feb 8th) he played 17 games, registered 5 points and was +4. Not bad, but not extremely good and certainly not top 10 good.
Over 82 games his performances over that month would translate to 24 points and +19 and that is point wise not even top 60. So then he would have to be an absolute defensive beast to make up for the loss of points and clearly that was not the case.

 

[Mess]

I never said he have not had periods this season when he have played well. But top 10? No chance. And saying he played extremely well is an exaggeration.
Going back a month before the Olympic break (Jan 7th - Feb 8th) he played 17 games, registered 5 points and was +4. Not bad, but not extremely good and certainly not top 10 good.
Over 82 games his performances over that month would translate to 24 points and +19 and that is point wise not even top 60. So then he would have to be an absolute defensive beast to make up for the loss of points and clearly that was not the case.

Phaneuf is currently tied for 35th in NHL dman scoring, with Tyson Barrie and Andy Greene and Christian Ehrhoff.

Offensively this year he certainly isn't top 10 NHL best dman.

He appears to have sacrificed offense to play defense, but in the team stats for GA, shots and PK% it doesn't seem to be having a significant impact.

If Leafs could eventually land a #1 dman and let Phaneuf settle into a #2 we might see some defensive improvement.. Gunnarsson does a good job supporting Dion at present, but he is no top pairing defender on any NHL team but Toronto.

 

[Banic]

Phaneuf is currently tied for 35th in NHL dman scoring, with Tyson Barrie and Andy Greene and Christian Ehrhoff.

Offensively this year he certainly isn't top 10 NHL best dman.

He appears to have sacrificed offense to play defense, but in the team stats for GA, shots and PK% it doesn't seem to be having a significant impact.

If Leafs could eventually land a #1 dman and let Phaneuf settle into a #2 we might see some defensive improvement.. Gunnarsson does a good job supporting Dion at present, but he is no top pairing defender on any NHL team but Toronto.

I'd much prefer Gunnarsson at his salary supporting an upgrade on Dion. Dion is paid like a #1, but lately performing like a bottom pairing. Dion falls apart after 23 minutes, that is not indicative to a quality #2 guy. Gunnar might not get the points but he is smarter and a better skater than Phaneuf, making him a better fit against the elite players. Could be why he has the highest +- on the team. I know, I know, +- is a useless stat that doesn't mean anything (except for when Dion was leading then it was valid)

 

[Faltorvo]

You don't think he was playing like a top-10 guy earlier in the season? When weighting quality of competition, ice time, and looking at the Goals For/Goals Against numbers when he was on/off the ice, defensively he was among the very top for a long amount of time and the impact on the team especially was huge. Even with his recent struggles his numbers are still pretty good overall.

He was playing extremely well and if you don't believe it then so be it.

I don't and neither did the high quality gms that put team Canada together.

 

[Diatomic]

The Leafs are bottom 5 in goals against and 30th in shots against and about to set a new NHL all-time record for most shots surrendered against in a season. Leafs also have the 28th ranked PK.

Dion plays more minutes than any other Dman on the Leafs TOI/g, so how much of those negative figures can be attributed to him based on being on the ice while they occur?

Is it the rest of the D core that is at fault?

But, what about hits and blocked shots, were amongst the league leaders in useless stupid stats like those.

#firecarlyle

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

The fact of the matter is Erik Karlsson has a worse turnover margin.

But he skates well and scores, so no one is ragging on him. He has a -38 turnover margin, which compared to Phaneuf is a lot.

Phil Kessel has a -48 turnover margin.

Dion Phaneuf has a -23 turnover margin, which, actually puts him in the above the middle of the pack among elite defenseman. Which is actually quite good.

These stats of course are skewed because of ice-time and zone starts and certain situations.

Nik Hjalmarsson for instance, someone most people think around the NHL is a really good defenseman has a -76 turnover differential, which is terrible.

Phaneuf has a better differential -23, than Doughty, who has a -63. Markov, a -42. Chara a -36, and Yandle a -25.

Truth be told, a -23 for a first pairing defenseman giving all the Leafs possession problems this season is actually very, very good.

I'm really glad you brought up these stats. I've been observing most of the games lately and I have been documenting all the turnovers made by the Leafs.

Phil Kessel turns the puck over on average 2-3 times a game. The MAJORITY of these turnovers come in the offensive zone because the majority of puck possession the Leafs have when he is on the ice is in the neutral or offensize zone (regardless of whether they start there or not).

BECAUSE he is capable, ON AVERAGE, to get the puck out of the zone, or recieve a pass and exit the zone only to be stripped away. The offensive unit lives and dies by Kessel's puck possession time. If he turns the puck over more, its because he is being given the puck more.

Dion Phaneuf has 1-2 turnovers per game and his time of possession on the puck isn't anywhere near the possession time that Phil Kessel has. Which is interesting, because he is allegedly this big minute guy against the best competition in the defensive zone, which means he's the last man back, which in turns means he should be in closer proximity to the puck MORE often that Kessel.

He is also on the ice way more than Kessel and he spends more time in the defensive zone and the Leafs are clearly being given a chance to retain possession a lot of times in the game because they give up an average of something like 40 shots a game. So you would think he would be touching the puck a lot and creating some possession time with his "elite" defensive play by distributing the puck out of the defensive zone.

But, he doesn't have more puck possession time. Because he doesn't know what to do with a puck on his stick MOST of the time.

He doesn't have more time, because he doesn't know what to do with the puck when he has it. He receives a puck, waits behind the net and then makes a 60 foot hail Mary with no pressure on him. Or he swings it around the boards to nobody. Or he makes a terrible distribution pass in his own end. Or he doesn't dump it correctly. Or he creates a 50/50 pass. He has no clue what to do with the puck and chucks it to anybody that looks like he is wearing skates. This sounds familiar right? Because it happens every game. After 70+ games. After 5 seasons. When is he magically going to all of a sudden observe what is going on during the play?

It happens time and time again, in his own end and its getting pretty late in a season to not know what you're doing.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

But, what about hits and blocked shots, were amongst the league leaders in useless stupid stats like those.

#firecarlyle

Hits and giveaways/takeaways are the least trusted stats. Some buildings have a more trigger happy guy then others for those stats.


http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/...hat-real-time-stats-are-pretty-useless-right/

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'm really glad you brought up these stats. I've been observing most of the games lately and I have been documenting all the turnovers made by the Leafs.

Phil Kessel turns the puck over on average 2-3 times a game. The MAJORITY of these turnovers come in the offensive zone because the majority of puck possession the Leafs have when he is on the ice is in the neutral or offensize zone (regardless of whether they start there or not).

BECAUSE he is capable, ON AVERAGE, to get the puck out of the zone, or recieve a pass and exit the zone only to be stripped away. The offensive unit lives and dies by Kessel's puck possession time. If he turns the puck over more, its because he is being given the puck more.

Dion Phaneuf has 1-2 turnovers per game and his time of possession on the puck isn't anywhere near the possession time that Phil Kessel has. Which is interesting, because he is allegedly this big minute guy against the best competition in the defensive zone, which means he's the last man back, which in turns means he should be in closer proximity to the puck MORE often that Kessel.

He is also on the ice way more than Kessel and he spends more time in the defensive zone and the Leafs are clearly being given a chance to retain possession a lot of times in the game because they give up an average of something like 40 shots a game. So you would think he would be touching the puck a lot and creating some possession time with his "elite" defensive play by distributing the puck out of the defensive zone.

But, he doesn't have more puck possession time. Because he doesn't know what to do with a puck on his stick MOST of the time.

He doesn't have more time, because he doesn't know what to do with the puck when he has it. He receives a puck, waits behind the net and then makes a 60 foot hail Mary with no pressure on him. Or he swings it around the boards to nobody. Or he makes a terrible distribution pass in his own end. Or he doesn't dump it correctly. Or he creates a 50/50 pass. He has no clue what to do with the puck and chucks it to anybody that looks like he is wearing skates. This sounds familiar right? Because it happens every game. After 70+ games. After 5 seasons. When is he magically going to all of a sudden observe what is going on during the play?

It happens time and time again, in his own end and its getting pretty late in a season to not know what you're doing.

Good post, it is this way you should look at real time stats, by actually watch the games

 

[McGuiresMonsters]

I have a question for Phaneuf's biggest critics.

What would be your reaction to Phaneuf voluntarily giving up his captaincy? How would you view him? Would you view Phaneuf better? Or does that just make him a ***** and you hate him more?

I ask because a lot of complaints are directed his way because fans feel he isn't a good leader/captain. And I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.