PGT: Game 37: Kings vs. Wild - 4/4/13 - Shutout Win!

[SettlementRichie10]

I have no problem moving forward this season with Bernier getting the lion's share of games, even into the playoffs. Because here's the reality:

Quick: 12-11-3, 2.54 GAA, .896 save pct.
Bernier: 9-2-0, 1.77 GAA, .927 save pct.

Enough of the coddling and excuses.

 

[kingsfan]

if bernier gets offer-sheeted and he signs it, can the kings still trade him?

Not for one year.

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodaily....html?id=bb2a888c-55bd-46d4-af78-6221ad222f13

"Because Colorado matched the offer, O'Reilly cannot be traded for a calendar year."

This was widely discussed as a potential problem for the Avs as that year won't be up until very close to the trade deadline next year in all likelihood, so he may not be eligible to be traded at all under the current contract he signed with Calgary, and matched by Colorado, as it was only a two year deal (this year and next).

 

[Taylor18]

It doesn't matter to me who starts, but Quick has played 7 of the last 10 and all but one game on that long road trip even after a stinker in Chicago. It is pretty clear what the staff intends to do.

What is the logic in starting Quick in the playoffs if he shows no real improvement, aren't you just hoping he regains his form from last year?

If it were an 82 game schedule then Quick would have more time to get his **** together.

Why go all in with Quick if he’s not playing as well as Bernier is? Makes no sense to me. I would rather play the guy that is getting it done this year. I think it will a bit of fail by management/coaching if they do it and it doesn’t work out.

If Bernier wasn’t playing good, then it wouldn’t matter, Quick would be the guy. At this point of the season, Quick should not get 7 of the next 10 games if continues to be mediocre. Reward the players that are getting it done this year, not last year. The staff will definitely have some tough decisions to make if Quick shows no improvement. At this point it should be clear to no one who should start the playoffs. Quick is proving he isn't and Bernier needs more games.

 

[HansH]

And let it not be said that I don't eat crow when it's deserved:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=63278555&postcount=17

I'm hoping for a win, as always, but it's the first game of a six-game segment (#37 of the year), and the Kings have lost the prior six of those (games #1, #7, #13, #19, #25, #31 were all regulation losses - look it up).

I've got an ugly feeling that another frustrating loss is upon us, with the inevitable companion "Jonathon wars" close behind... may the gods have mercy on our souls.

So, I was COMPLETELY wrong on the game (thankfully)! Hm, the Jonathon wars appear to be upon on anyway, though...

 

[bobafettish*]

Not for one year.

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodaily....html?id=bb2a888c-55bd-46d4-af78-6221ad222f13



This was widely discussed as a potential problem for the Avs as that year won't be up until very close to the trade deadline next year in all likelihood, so he may not be eligible to be traded at all under the current contract he signed with Calgary, and matched by Colorado, as it was only a two year deal (this year and next).

no my question is if the kings dont match, can they still trade him. i'm assuming they have to trade him before July 1st.

 

[TheSentinel]

I'm going to reserve judgement on Quickie until after I "see" how he plays with the D lines in front of him that were in front of Bernier last night.
Maybe a more stay-at-home d-man is what he needed to calm down.

 

[JBernierFan]

no my question is if the kings dont match, can they still trade him. i'm assuming they have to trade him before July 1st.

If he was offer sheeted (and signed it) and the Kings didn't match in the given time, he would instantly be property of the team that offer sheeted him and the Kings would just get the compensation allotted for him (based on the CBA and the salary the offer sheet was for him).

 

[kingsfan]

no my question is if the kings dont match, can they still trade him. i'm assuming they have to trade him before July 1st.

I don't believe you can trade him, as technically he has a contract with another team (in ROR's case, it was Calgary). So in a sense, he's not yours to trade. If you don't match, he goes for the alloted compensation, and if you do match, you can't trade for a calander year. So once he gets an RFA offer sheet that he agrees to, you are locked in to either keeping him or taking the compensation.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe so. Holden may have more knowledge on that though.

It seems likely that the Kings would figure out something (either a trade or a contract extension, assuming Bernier would sign one) before July 1st, and most likely other teams would be eager to do a deal before then as well. We'd likely get better compensation for him in a trade, and the team acquiring Bernier would likely not have to overpay in terms of salary/cap hit to get him from us, as odds are DL would quickly match if he signed for close to fair market value.

If he does go to July 1st it will be interesting to see if Jay Feaster goes for the RFA bid on Bernier, or if he decides to assume Ramo and Berra are the cat's meow as he's said and try to roll with them.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I have no problem moving forward this season with Bernier getting the lion's share of games, even into the playoffs. Because here's the reality:

Quick: 12-11-3, 2.54 GAA, .896 save pct.
Bernier: 9-2-0, 1.77 GAA, .927 save pct.

Enough of the coddling and excuses.

I was curious about quality of starts, ie who is playing the better teams. So I tallied up the teams they have played, and no surprise teams Quick has played have averaged 42 points this season, teams Bernier have played have averaged out to 39 points. So it's not huge, but Bernier is getting the easier matchups. Not saying that completely excuses it, but it's just another reason these numbers are not as simply as they are made out to be.

I don't believe you can trade him, as technically he has a contract with another team (in ROR's case, it was Calgary). So in a sense, he's not yours to trade. If you don't match, he goes for the alloted compensation, and if you do match, you can't trade for a calander year. So once he gets an RFA offer sheet that he agrees to, you are locked in to either keeping him or taking the compensation.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe so. Holden may have more knowledge on that though.

It seems likely that the Kings would figure out something (either a trade or a contract extension, assuming Bernier would sign one) before July 1st, and most likely other teams would be eager to do a deal before then as well. We'd likely get better compensation for him in a trade, and the team acquiring Bernier would likely not have to overpay in terms of salary/cap hit to get him from us, as odds are DL would quickly match if he signed for close to fair market value.

If he does go to July 1st it will be interesting to see if Jay Feaster goes for the RFA bid on Bernier, or if he decides to assume Ramo and Berra are the cat's meow as he's said and try to roll with them.

You got it. Once a player has signed an offer sheet with another team your only options are to match it (then can't trade for a year) or let him go for the compensation.

Of note, I don't believe a goaltender has ever signed an offer sheet with another team, never mind not been matched. So that's something to consider. Offer sheets are not as big a deal as fans make them out to be, IMO.

That being said, I do expect Bernier to be dealt on draft day.

 

[Butch 19]

If he was offer sheeted (and signed it) and the Kings didn't match in the given time, he would instantly be property of the team that offer sheeted him and the Kings would just get the compensation allotted for him (based on the CBA and the salary the offer sheet was for him).

This would be the absolute BEST thing that could happen to the Kings.

So,.... I'm not expecting it.

 

[kingsfan]

I was curious about quality of starts, ie who is playing the better teams. So I tallied up the teams they have played, and no surprise teams Quick has played have averaged 42 points this season, teams Bernier have played have averaged out to 39 points. So it's not huge, but Bernier is getting the easier matchups. Not saying that completely excuses it, but it's just another reason these numbers are not as simply as they are made out to be.



You got it. Once a player has signed an offer sheet with another team your only options are to match it (then can't trade for a year) or let him go for the compensation.

Of note, I don't believe a goaltender has ever signed an offer sheet with another team, never mind not been matched. So that's something to consider. Offer sheets are not as big a deal as fans make them out to be, IMO.

That being said, I do expect Bernier to be dealt on draft day.

It's wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth, but this list seems to be fairly accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_players_who_have_signed_offer_sheets

It lists all the players who have ever signed an RFA offer sheet, and the only goalie listed is Ron Tugnutt, way back in 1996. At the time Tugnutt was coming off a full season in the AHL as a 28 year old, so not at all comparible to Bernier. Good pick up for Ottawa though, as they didn't even have to give up any compensation (contract was so low, it was in the 'no compensation' area) and he went on to play almost four seasons as Ottawa's co-number one.

Back to the point though, odds aren't good that Bernier would get a RFA bid and I'd actually worry more about Voynov getting one than Bernier at this point. That said, this is likely the worst year for potential RFA bids, considering the cap is dropping by $5.9 million and typically the only way you'll get the player you are bidding on is if you overpay to the point the team that has the player doesn't want to match.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

This would be the absolute BEST thing that could happen to the Kings.

So,.... I'm not expecting it.

Well that depends...for example a 3 year, 9 million dollar contract would only net the Kings a second round pick in compensation...really think that's fair value on Bernier right now?

 

[kingsfan]

This would be the absolute BEST thing that could happen to the Kings.

So,.... I'm not expecting it.

Odds are that would be the worst thing. ROR got $5 million on his offer sheet, and the compensation on that was only a 1st and a 3rd. Bernier likely wouldn't get that high of an offer, meaning we'd likely be lucky to even get a 1st as compensation. DL could dobetter in a tarde.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

It's wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth, but this list seems to be fairly accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_players_who_have_signed_offer_sheets

It lists all the players who have ever signed an RFA offer sheet, and the only goalie listed is Ron Tugnutt, way back in 1996. At the time Tugnutt was coming off a full season in the AHL as a 28 year old, so not at all comparible to Bernier. Good pick up for Ottawa though, as they didn't even have to give up any compensation (contract was so low, it was in the 'no compensation' area) and he went on to play almost four seasons as Ottawa's co-number one.

Back to the point though, odds aren't good that Bernier would get a RFA bid and I'd actually worry more about Voynov getting one than Bernier at this point. That said, this is likely the worst year for potential RFA bids, considering the cap is dropping by $5.9 million and typically the only way you'll get the player you are bidding on is if you overpay to the point the team that has the player doesn't want to match.

Ah didn't know about Tugnutt, did not realize so many offer sheets were signed in 90's.

Anyways, I agree Voynov is the bigger threat. The ONLY thing that might concern me is if somebody tried to "game" the Kings like San Jose did to Chicago. They signed Hjalmarsson to just a little bit too high (but not high enough that CHI was able to let Hjalmarsson go) and forced CHI to walk away from arbitration award from Niemi. Could see a team doing this with Voynov and Bernier since Kings cannot afford to let Voynov go...but I have faith DL won't let it get to that situation...

 

[DryIslandBartender]

I was curious about quality of starts, ie who is playing the better teams. So I tallied up the teams they have played, and no surprise teams Quick has played have averaged 42 points this season, teams Bernier have played have averaged out to 39 points. So it's not huge, but Bernier is getting the easier matchups. Not saying that completely excuses it, but it's just another reason these numbers are not as simply as they are made out to be.

C'mon. Are we really resorting to excuses like that? That's silly.

 

[Sydor25]

I was curious about quality of starts, ie who is playing the better teams. So I tallied up the teams they have played, and no surprise teams Quick has played have averaged 42 points this season, teams Bernier have played have averaged out to 39 points. So it's not huge, but Bernier is getting the easier matchups. Not saying that completely excuses it, but it's just another reason these numbers are not as simply as they are made out to be.

Did you figure the points that the teams have without using the Kings games (results)? Because the teams that Bernier has started against have picked up zero points against the Kings.

Did you hurt yourself with that stretch?

 

[DryIslandBartender]

It's going to come down to whether Quick can turn it around or not. If he cannot, Bernier is not going anywhere this offseason and some of the focus shifts back to Quick. Quick could hamstring and cause complications with the cap space.

Dean Lombardi has alluded many times to the decrease in cap space, placing a premium on value contracts. With the numbers that Quick has right now, if they stay the same through the season and into the playoffs. DL has a problem on his hands...are we really going to have close to 6 million in cap space to a goalie with mediocre stats for 10 years?


Personally, I just don't think its Quick's year. Reminds me of when Mike Richter was unstoppable for the Rangers in their 1993-94 run, but then the following year Richter played like dog doo. Richter had a good career, but never regained that amazing playoff performance. Like Quick, Richter had great agility and flexibility but those traits also led to many injuries.

 

[jml87]

I'm going to reserve judgement on Quickie until after I "see" how he plays with the D lines in front of him that were in front of Bernier last night.
Maybe a more stay-at-home d-man is what he needed to calm down.

Exactly, I want to see how Quick does with Regehr clearing the crease. He was a big help last night.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

It's going to come down to whether Quick can turn it around or not. If he cannot, Bernier is not going anywhere this offseason and some of the focus shifts back to Quick. Quick could hamstring and cause complications with the cap space.

Dean Lombardi has alluded many times to the decrease in cap space, placing a premium on value contracts. With the numbers that Quick has right now, if they stay the same through the season and into the playoffs. DL has a problem on his hands...are we really going to have close to 6 million in cap space to a goalie with mediocre stats for 10 years?


Personally, I just don't think its Quick's year. Reminds me of when Mike Richter was unstoppable for the Rangers in their 1993-94 run, but then the following year Richter played like dog doo. Richter had a good career, but never regained that amazing playoff performance. Like Quick, Richter had great agility and flexibility but those traits also led to many injuries.

And as irony has it, Mike Richter was Quick's boyhood idol.

I'm not saying Quick hasn't earned equity with the fans or management and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to live our his contract as our number one. But looking back, Bernier was always supposed to be the number one guy. He had the pedigree, development, and style as befitting of a number one.

Signing Quick to that monster contract does present us with a lot of issues going forward. Quick is always going to be a goaltender that relies more on his natural flexibility and athleticism moreso than sound positioning. But as we've seen with virtually every athletic goaltender in the history of the game, injuries take a toll and that athleticism disappears after a certain point.

It's something to think about. This is exactly why Dean had the foresight to hold on to Bernier. Whatever the answer is, I'm sure Dean will make the right decision. He had a similar issue in San Jose, with Kiprusoff v. Nabokov v. Toskala.

 

[tsanuri]

The interesting part is that JB is getting better goal support. He is getting 3.33 G/G on his starts which is almost .5 goals a game better than what we average.
And Quick knows he's had some off games and he has done nothing but take the blame.

 

[fyrescorp]

I think it might be a good idea to wait and see how Quick does with a new, big, solid defenseman in front of him before he gets sat for the rest of the year.

 

[etherialone]

I am likely wrong but isn't the cash amount set at $3.5m on signing an RFA for getting back a 1st and a 3rd?

I thought I read that somewhere. I wouldn't be happy with only getting a 1st and a 3rd back for JB but if the team that signed him got us into the top ten this year we could end up doing pretty good.

 

[MsMeow]

I want Quick to start the next game. Keep rotating them unless he's injured. There is enough of a gap between the Kings and 9th place that they can afford to have him in net even if he isn't playing great, then when the playoffs come, go with whoever is hot.

 

[tsanuri]

I am likely wrong but isn't the cash amount set at $3.5m on signing an RFA for getting back a 1st and a 3rd?

I thought I read that somewhere. I wouldn't be happy with only getting a 1st and a 3rd back for JB but if the team that signed him got us into the top ten this year we could end up doing pretty good.

Except that can't happen. He doesn't become a RFA until July 1 and the draft is June 30.

 

[etherialone]

Except that can't happen. He doesn't become a RFA until July 1 and the draft is June 30.

Right. Forgot about that.