Confirmed with Link: Pettersson Signs 8 Year Deal with the Vancouver Canucks, AAV $11.6M

[geebster]

there's a classic photo of Maurice Richard playing through with a face that looked like a Picasso...

classic stuff ....

Edler playing with broken fingers ... Etc ..

And goalies played without helmets. Honestly disgusting that Demko didn't play, at least Petey was in the games.

/s

 

[Hodgy]

I could literally post like 5 different quotes from you doing nothing but questioning the legitimacy of his injury when you were arguing with me that "occams razor" was that he was the biggest anomaly in league history rather than accepting that he was playing through injury.

You are confused. Bossram said I questioned the legitimacy of the injury after Petey confirmed he was injured which isn’t the case. After the news came out I questioned the severity of the injury, or how much the injury was contributing to his bad play. But didn’t question the legitimacy of the injury after it was announced.

The more I hear about tendinitis in the knee the more I am open to the conclusion that this injury was a significant contributor to his poor play.

 

[theguardianII]

MYOSITIS OSSIFICANS, that term may come up at times, especially with Boeser.
Everything I read about tendonitis states it can be made worse if not rested. I heard an argument that if they sat him 3 weeks and he came back and it was still bad, okay but there is the flip side, he would not have been any worse but might have been better. More likely better than worse.
and the three weeks time line, it could have been 8 weeks for as bad as his play fell off a cliff.
BUT
If the team had placed him on LTIR they could have rested him until the last regular season game and had the cap space to pursue both Lindholm and Guentzal. Starting the playoffs with a no worse but probable healthier is out of shape Pettersson but having an additional goal scorer that management knew well. A healthy Pettersson playing 12 minutes a game and on the PP would have been a plus.

We shall see if he is better and what news comes during the summer about Pettersson.

 

[Hodgy]

You're just backtracking and deflecting again. The core of your position is that you don't think Petey's injury was ever debilitating enough to explain his dip in play, before the injury was revealed, or after. That's what I'm getting at by saying you don't think it's a "legit" injury. You don't think it's a legit explanation for the dip in play.

I mean, there is a difference between a legitimate explanation, as you see now phrasing it, and a legitimate injury. The two are obviously entirely different and the latter was absolutely not a position I ever held, and was therefore, a straw man.

You literally just said you didn't think an injury was causing his bad play. If the injury isn't to blame, then it's a pretty accurate summary to state that you don't think the injury is very legit!

Again, there is a big difference between legitimate explanation and legitimate injury. When someone doesn’t think an injury is legitimate they are questioning the injury itself, or whether it exists. Again, after Petey disclosed his injury I never questioned its existence (I.e., I accepted its legitimacy).

But yes, I questioned whether his injury did explain his bad play because I didn’t understand why Tocchett would make the comments he did, or why he wasn’t rested if it was so debilitating. I also don’t really understand why Petey would call his play shit if it was just the result of the injury.

But my point isn’t that the injury, now that it’s been confirmed, absolutely didn’t cause the bad play. Clearly it had an affect, and perhaps even the defining major reason for the bad play. I’m not a doctor so I don’t know. But the facts are still a bit weird.

You were wrong about the original injury. You don't believe it should be an explanation for his dip in play. Just own these things and move on.

Unfortunately I love semantics too much to move on. You haven’t proven me wrong since you haven’t proven the injury was the cause of his bad play. You obviously won’t be able to but you should recognize the nuance of it.

For my part though, I 100% admit that it is far more likely now, then when we started this argument a month or so ago, that an injury was a significant factor in causing his bad play. No arguments there.

Yep. He's now backtracking and pretending he said different things before.

You can go back and quote me in full. Don’t cherry pick things, but I have been pretty consistent throughout.

 

[Tobi1Kenobi]

Pettersson let the team down. Last offseason we heard how all the players were going to put in the work and come early. He was one of the last players to hit the ice at the "early" trainging camp and he didn't even come in good shape. He has a letter. Tendenitis lasting that long at his age means his supports muscle arent strong and flexible. He didn't put the work in. Too busy worrying about social media and doing pompous interviews. This wasn't just a January thing. He was less explosive all year. Shot was worse. Dynamic plays were down. He looked gassed after every shift. He's such a smart player and the team was way better so he was still putting up a ton of points but we can all agree something was off all year. It wasn't the same Petey from the get go.

Flash forward to end of season presser look how excited he was to answer the "were you injured" question. Like he was frothing at the mouth. Giddy. When have we ever seen him be happy to answer a question. Excuses. Juxtaposed to Toccets reaction to the Pettersson "injury" he literraly scracted his head. It was a HEAD SCRATCHER. Watch the videos. I want a media memeber to ask "Hey Rick were you happy with Petterssons fitness levels at training camp" That would be telling.

The blame lands on Petey and only Petey. He got a big serving of humble pie and I think it'll be for the good in the long run. He's such a talent and this is the kick in the ass he needed. He better come in phenomenal shape and become the player we all know he can be. I think he will. We're gonna see a dominant player next year. The team needs him now. Like right now.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Tendenitis lasting that long at his age means his supports muscle arent strong and flexible. He didn't put the work in.

Thats not how tendinitis works.

Rest was biased gibberish but this part was simply factually wrong.

 

[arttk]

I mean, there is a difference between a legitimate explanation, as you see now phrasing it, and a legitimate injury. The two are obviously entirely different and the latter was absolutely not a position I ever held, and was therefore, a straw man.



Again, there is a big difference between legitimate explanation and legitimate injury. When someone doesn’t think an injury is legitimate they are questioning the injury itself, or whether it exists. Again, after Petey disclosed his injury I never questioned its existence (I.e., I accepted its legitimacy).

But yes, I questioned whether his injury did explain his bad play because I didn’t understand why Tocchett would make the comments he did, or why he wasn’t rested if it was so debilitating. I also don’t really understand why Petey would call his play shit if it was just the result of the injury.

But my point isn’t that the injury, now that it’s been confirmed, absolutely didn’t cause the bad play. Clearly it had an affect, and perhaps even the defining major reason for the bad play. I’m not a doctor so I don’t know. But the facts are still a bit weird.



Unfortunately I love semantics too much to move on. You haven’t proven me wrong since you haven’t proven the injury was the cause of his bad play. You obviously won’t be able to but you should recognize the nuance of it.

For my part though, I 100% admit that it is far more likely now, then when we started this argument a month or so ago, that an injury was a significant factor in causing his bad play. No arguments there.



You can go back and quote me in full. Don’t cherry pick things, but I have been pretty consistent throughout.

It doesn’t take that long to do a bit of a research on Tendonitis…
The patellar tendon is inflamed due to micro tears in the tendon. An inflamed tendon by leads to reduce load capacity. He said it got worse over the months and the numbers prove it. His numbers were fine up till mid Feb and then it started to drop off.

Also every player’s play style is different. I imagine this wouldn’t affect Garland as much considering the short stick he uses and he doesn’t drag his stick as much to generate power where Petey is the opposite.

I can see the logic of why Tocchet wants to push Petey to find ways around it, it makes sense because if Petey can find different ways to score, his baseline effectiveness will increase and he will be harder to stop.

The part where it doesn’t make sense is, is it realistic to ask a player to figure out a new playstyle mid season with little practice time and also does it make sense to allow him to play through the pain for that many games. It makes sense to play through pain during the playoffs because it’s really only like 30 games max. But what the f*** is the point of playing through 30ish games of pain before the playoffs even starts? We went 2 rounds deep so that’s like half a season worth of games playing in pain. Even if the pain level is only 1/10, 40 games/ half a year of experiencing consistent pain everyday that will inevitably grind anyone down.
I have a herniated disc for like 3 years now, for the 1st year it’s like a consistent 2/10 pain. I am not an athlete but when you are in constant pain, it changes the way how you do everything/ anything.

 

[mossey3535]

I think the Canucks have had and continue to have a big issue with proper injury treatment. If not medically, even their attitude to it doesn't seem to be producing results (healthy players). This isn't limited to Petey, my buddies are always talking about the Leafs and I can't recall the number or severity of injury "controversies" for that team.

Related to this is load management. The whole league is behind other leagues like the NBA in this so I don't blame them as much but it's obvious that they need to start doing this. Cole should have been load managed. Quinn, his minutes should be managed if not his games. Demko absof***inglutely needs to be load managed as nobody in the league can play 60 anymore like in the old days. I'll post my detailed thoughts on this in his thread.

Anyways whatever you think of Pete's injury, the organization could do a lot better in this area. Why not strive for improvement in all areas? In this case man games lost or guys playing through stuff when it might not be the right decision have a significant effect on your team through both their reduced performance and the cap hit ramifications.

 

[F A N]

No that is not how it goes at all.

The player will usually look for any way he can keep playing.

Huh?

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[Caspian]

I think the Canucks have had and continue to have a big issue with proper injury treatment. If not medically, even their attitude to it doesn't seem to be producing results (healthy players). This isn't limited to Petey, my buddies are always talking about the Leafs and I can't recall the number or severity of injury "controversies" for that team.

Related to this is load management. The whole league is behind other leagues like the NBA in this so I don't blame them as much but it's obvious that they need to start doing this. Cole should have been load managed. Quinn, his minutes should be managed if not his games. Demko absof***inglutely needs to be load managed as nobody in the league can play 60 anymore like in the old days. I'll post my detailed thoughts on this in his thread.

Anyways whatever you think of Pete's injury, the organization could do a lot better in this area. Why not strive for improvement in all areas? In this case man games lost or guys playing through stuff when it might not be the right decision have a significant effect on your team through both their reduced performance and the cap hit ramifications.

If we're going purely by man games lost Toronto had many more injuries in 23-24.

x.com/NHLInjuryViz/status/1781425445554057558


timing of injuries for the Nucks was tough. essentially all of our major injuries happened just in time for the playoffs. Travel probably doesn't help.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Huh?

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

The bolded part?

 

[F A N]

The bolded part?

So you disagree that “Outside of an abnormal risk of immediate death, doctors don't make the final decisions. It's the player” who decides on whether he can play?

I think you are confused.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So you disagree that “Outside of an abnormal risk of immediate death, doctors don't make the final decisions. It's the player” who decides on whether he can play?

I think you are confused.

I dont know what you dont understand.

 

[mossey3535]

If we're going purely by man games lost Toronto had many more injuries in 23-24.

x.com/NHLInjuryViz/status/1781425445554057558


timing of injuries for the Nucks was tough. essentially all of our major injuries happened just in time for the playoffs. Travel probably doesn't help.

It's not pure man games.

The issue is that Toronto to my recollection didn't have any Mikheyev, Pearson, Pettersson, Hodgson type controversies. Injuries that were not just man games lost but had questions as to whether the treatment of the injury was properly done. If you see Pettersson a a continuation of this trend, it's not a question of whether he missed games. The issue is that he didn't miss any games when at some point rest might have been a better alternative.

If anything Toronto has historically done more Vegas-type "Robidas Island" situations where they exploited IR to give themselves an advantage.

 

[F A N]

I dont know what you dont understand.

I don’t understand what you are disagreeing with. You only bolded “It’s the player” and then go on to say something seemingly agrees with what I wrote; hence; I think you are confused.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don’t understand what you are disagreeing with. You only bolded “It’s the player” and then go on to say something seemingly agrees with what I wrote; hence; I think you are confused.

The call wether the player is healthy enough to play or not should never be up to the player to make.

The player will want to be there for his team and will not want to be seen as a quitter or not tough enough.

From what I understand you think its the exact opposite. That it should always be up to the player to make that decision.

 

[F A N]

The call wether the player is healthy enough to play or not should never be up to the player to make.

The player will want to be there for his team and will not want to be seen as a quitter or not tough enough.

I did not disagree with that. I do think it should be a case by case basis, but I don't think we fundamentally disagree here. If a player suffering from severe concussion symptoms and is a danger to himself out there on the ice then the medical staff and the team has a responsibility to not allow the player to play. But if a player is playing with a sprained finger that needs to be taped up I think the expectation is that the player is able to play. In cases where a player needs offseason surgery, the doctors say there's little risk of further injury, and the player can play through the pain, the team should weigh whether the team is better off having the player play hurt etc.

From what I understand you think its the exact opposite. That it should always be up to the player to make that decision.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I was responding to a post saying the doctors make the final decision as to whether a player is healthy enough/allowed to play. I say that outside of an abnormal risk of death or serious bodily harm, it's the player who makes the determination or can consent to playing. That doesn't mean the team/coach should allow the player to play. But we know players play through some serious injuries and the medical staff either cleared the player to play or the player consented to playing knowing the risks.

I believe in using common sense. If a star player is playing with broken ribs and the doctor says there's no risk of further injury and that player says he can play in Game 7, the team can and often will allow him to play. I think we can both agree that that's what happens in hockey. If the player is suffering from a heart condition or blood clot or can barely stand upright because of a bad back, the player shouldn't play. Conversely, if the player says he can't play, I think we can both agree that the team can't force him to play.

There are hockey norms and there's also the CBA. Take Gillis shutting down Malhotra. He was paid and had one year left on his contract so nothing came of it. If the situation was different, Malhotra would likely file a grievance and the resolution would likely be something akin to a mutual contract termination.

Point is, everything starts with the medical opinion. Outside of an abnormal risk of death or serious bodily harm, the team's medical staff isn't going to prevent the player from playing if the player wants to play and consents to playing. In everyday life, a doctor can't force someone to undergo treatment. So whether a player is healthy enough/can play IS typically decided by the player. It is then up to the team whether to play that player.

Back to the thread topic (and I don't think we are disagreeing here), we are talking about a player worth over $92 million to the team. With a playoff spot all but secured, the priority should be Petey's long term health and his ability to be healthy for the playoffs. I think the team should have sat or rested Petey to see if his knee heels up.

 

[Tobi1Kenobi]

Thats not how tendinitis works.

Rest was biased gibberish but this part was simply factually wrong.

In my experience with clients tendonitis goes away with proper surrounding strength.

"An increase of the force generating capacity of a muscle needs to go in line with a corresponding modulation of the mechanical properties of the associated tendon to avoid potential harm to the integrity of the tendinous tissue"

Everytime I've had a tendon problem I hyperfocus in that area and it heals quickly.

So please.... tell me how it works if I'm wrong? I'd like to learn more

 

[PuckMunchkin]

In my experience with clients tendonitis goes away with proper surrounding strength.

"An increase of the force generating capacity of a muscle needs to go in line with a corresponding modulation of the mechanical properties of the associated tendon to avoid potential harm to the integrity of the tendinous tissue"

Everytime I've had a tendon problem I hyperfocus in that area and it heals quickly.

So please.... tell me how it works if I'm wrong? I'd like to learn more

Being strong wont make it go away.

It is a strain injury. It needs rest to heal.


Strengthening the surrounding musculature will help preventing the tendinitis.

 

[shottasasa]

given that everyone is using this thread to air speculative theories and shaky chains of logic I’ve decided i must contribute in my own small way.

I woke up this morning with the revelation that the reason Pettersson did that weird hop when he “charged” Foegele(?) was because he was subconsciously trying to protect knee from getting twisted when he was hit. Therefore I have deduced that his tendinitis was indeed serious enough to influence his play and likely diminish his effectiveness. CHECKMATE




And Serevalli can $*%£ ¥# +~&@.

 

[Hit the post]

And Serevalli can $*%£ ¥# +~&@.

He's too busy giving Mark Spector "the reacharound".

 

[bossram]

I think the Canucks have had and continue to have a big issue with proper injury treatment. If not medically, even their attitude to it doesn't seem to be producing results (healthy players). This isn't limited to Petey, my buddies are always talking about the Leafs and I can't recall the number or severity of injury "controversies" for that team.

Related to this is load management. The whole league is behind other leagues like the NBA in this so I don't blame them as much but it's obvious that they need to start doing this. Cole should have been load managed. Quinn, his minutes should be managed if not his games. Demko absof***inglutely needs to be load managed as nobody in the league can play 60 anymore like in the old days. I'll post my detailed thoughts on this in his thread.

Anyways whatever you think of Pete's injury, the organization could do a lot better in this area. Why not strive for improvement in all areas? In this case man games lost or guys playing through stuff when it might not be the right decision have a significant effect on your team through both their reduced performance and the cap hit ramifications.

Yep. I'm not really confident with how the current brass manages injuries. The recent track record doesn't seem great.

Bolded is one of my hockey hobby horses I try to bring up in every injury-related thread. Teams absolutely should be load managing their players. Guys should be rotated in and out, regardless of "injury" status. If you're a contender, the key is being healthy for the playoffs.

Demko should be not be playing any more than 50 games next year. Has to be a hard stop. He was pacing for 60+ again this season, and look what happened. Silovs should be in a game per week,

 

[Hit the post]

Yep. I'm not really confident with how the current brass manages injuries. The recent track record doesn't seem great.

Bolded is one of my hockey hobby horses I try to bring up in every injury-related thread. Teams absolutely should be load managing their players. Guys should be rotated in and out, regardless of "injury" status. If you're a contender, the key is being healthy for the playoffs.

Demko should be not be playing any more than 50 games next year. Has to be a hard stop. He was pacing for 60+ again this season, and look what happened. Silovs should be in a game per week,

Think our franchise has been blessed with solid goaltending for multiple decades now to the point the starter gets a ton of starts. Issue is, not everyone is like Luongo in terms of being able to play 60+ starts a season. He was a freak of nature.

 

[bossram]

Think our franchise has been blessed with solid goaltending for multiple decades now to the point the starter gets a ton of starts. Issue is, not everyone is like Luongo in terms of being able to play 60+ starts a season. He was a freak of nature.

Luongo was truly a freak (and extremely hard worker to keep his body prepared and ready) to handle that kind of load.

The vast majority of goalies cannot. If Demko plays 60 games next season, it's a massive organizational failure. One that is obvious to anyone with a brain and easily avoided.

 

[arttk]

Think our franchise has been blessed with solid goaltending for multiple decades now to the point the starter gets a ton of starts. Issue is, not everyone is like Luongo in terms of being able to play 60+ starts a season. He was a freak of nature.

Modern goalie technique is harder on the body I assume. @mossey3535 would know.