Which is why I included the number of points he would score on the very last of those extra minutes he would receive over other players. Not surprisingly, it was his margin of victory in the 1999 Art Ross.
So because a player is stronger and has better conditioning, and despite taking the most abuse (because he was the best, strongest on the puck, playing as much as any forward) while the refs look the other way and don't enforce the rules, he tends to score late in the game when the chips are down and other players are tired (or can't even play at all), he should be penalized for that with the use of some phony stat?
You say that as if Jagr was the only top star to play through injuries.
Of course he wasn't, but common sense would dictate that the player who is taking the most abuse from defenders and playing the highest % of games among superstars (along with Selanne probably), is likely playing through as many or more injuries than most other superstars. If not, that's a testament to his strength, conditioning, and/or genetics, but in either case games aren't decided by who would score the most if all their players could play at 100%. They are decided by who shows up and plays and how they play that day. Jagr showed up more than most or all superstar forwards, played more than most or all, took unpenalized punishment more than most or all, and was better than most or all. That's what made him greater than all other forwards of his day.
I don't think they're going to award Elvis a Grammy, just because he might have had a great comeback album if healthy.
Jagr never won an Art Ross by 27 points. He won one by 20 points over a player who played just 1671 ES/PP minutes to Jagr's 2023. And he won it with an abnormally high number of secondary assists, so his teammates weren't exactly helpless in setting each other up after Jagr got the ball rolling on the play. So I don't know why you're throwing them under the bus, since it was their goals/primary-assists that allowed 1999's margin to happen. More than that, he did better with them than he did with Ron Francis the year before, so maybe you're exaggerating the effect of who was riding shotgun.
Sorry for the mistake, but the point stands. No one else during or since would win a Ross by 20 with Hrdina & Miller, except Lemieux... or win a Ross by 20 period, over peak Selanne, Kariya, etc.
As far as secondary assists... yeah, he was leeching off Hrdina and Miller as usual. C'mon, when there's three guys on you, it opens up the ice for your teammates, and Jagr was smart and skilled enough to take full advantage of that.
Because those extra ES/PP minutes per game were a luxury afforded to Jagr that other forwards did not receive, as minutes are determined by the coaches. Pittsburgh played Jagr like he was a #1 defenseman. Just like with Brodeur playing 70-75 GP and having a huge edge in the Wins race, any forward that gets the minutes of a #1 defenseman is going to have a huge edge in the Art Ross race. It used to be more common for top-skaters to play as much or more than Jagr did; he's not super-human in that regard. It's just that Pittsburgh - and later Florida with Bure in 2000-01 - didn't have depth and they went out of their way to appease their top players. Because if they didn't, then people would start "dying alive," and no one wants that.
You say that as if any ole superstar forward could play the minutes Jagr did (and Lemieux and Gretzky before him), especially during that era when massive abuse was unchecked and ignored, and especially for so many games year in and year out. The reason they could and had to afford him those minutes was the team was in big trouble and was complete crap without Jagr. Lemieux had forced them to trade Zubov for Kevin Hatcher, then retired after one more year. Francis was gone. They basically didn't even have a 4th line. There defense was poor and they had revolving goalies.
Similarly, you think any starting goalie could start 70+ games for so many years, and play at such a high level as Brodeur? If you do, you're fooling yourself. There just aren't many guys who can do that, which is why they don't. Either their play would deteriorate or they would get injured or both.
It's not just that they can play these guys so much, it's that these guys can play so much and their play doesn't suffer, and in fact often gets better. Some players thrive on more work, it keeps them in rhythm and in shape and sharp. And in Jagr's case, while other players wore down trying to keep up with him to tackle him, he just got stronger and that showed in the third periods and OTs.
I'm not sure how it's most important when the question was at his very best. Forsberg's very best was 2003 and 2004. So that's what I used. And he was better in 2004 than 2003, so that full season off (which was for three surgeries!) doesn't seem to have much relevance.
Did we ever see Jagr at his very best? I'm trying to remember which regular season he took off, allowing him to rest and show how great he could be rested, since he was already the strongest player on the puck and took the most abuse.
I don't think Forsberg was more valuable. The fact that Pittsburgh, because of how bad they were, were relying on Jagr for more minutes makes Jagr more valuable. But I think Forsberg at his very best was comparable offensively and more responsible defensively, a better playoff performer, and less of a prima donna. So at his very best, he was probably as good or slightly better.
Forsberg was not as good offensively. Jagr was much better goal-scorer, look at his top 2, top 3, top 5, top 10 goal finishes, he blows Forsberg out of the water. And leading the league in assists 3 times as a wing is quite the rare feat, so he was every bit the playmaker that Forsberg was.
I don't believe Forsberg was a better playoff performer, rather that these were two of the best playoff performers in history. If you look at Jagr's playoff PPG in his prime, as well as his excellent plus-minus while playing on bad, underdog teams... and his history of big goals and points in the playoffs... as well as having the most playoff points of anyone not on the '80s Oilers... I don't think he needs to apologize for his playoff record, even in comparison to Forsberg.
