Peter Forsberg: The Reality in Contrast With The Imagined, Romanticized Version.

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Uh huh. And you ranked Fedorov a top five center EVER and thats sure as hell not based on the regular season so he's probabaly top five in the playoffs as well?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Uh huh. And you ranked Fedorov a top five center EVER and thats sure as hell not based on the regular season so he's probabaly top five in the playoffs as well?

Who are you referring to? I was the most recent poster, and I do not recall ranking Fedorov as a top-five center.

 

[Czech Your Math]

...
Also when you are as predictable as Forsberg is (his reluctance to shoot and think pass first) you eventually become a more simple player to devise a game plan against and contain. Thornton in comparison has suffered the same fate as he went from being a 90 assists guy to no longer even being able to maintain a PPG pace since teams have learned how to face him and they just take away his passing options. In the 90's, no other "superstar" was as predictable as Forsberg was with the exception of Bure.

The difference is that Thornton's playoff production has paled in comparison to what might be expected from him, while Forsberg was one of the best playoff performers of his generation. That suggests possibly that Forsberg wasn't merely one-dimensional, but perhaps preferred the setup role more during the season.

All of Lindros, Jagr, Sakic Selanne, Karyia and Federov could be sublime set up men and still continue to score goals at a high rate.

I don't think Selanne, Kariya, and Fedorov were generally better setup men than Forsberg was a goal-scorer.

I will stand by my opinion that Forsberg was the 7th best forward of the DPE following Jagr, Lindros, Sakic, Federov, Selanne and Karyia.

Not sure how you're rating them.

Best season: They all had great single seasons. If anyone really falls short here it's probably Kariya (just not a legendary single season IMO).

Peak: Besides Jagr, Forsberg stacks up pretty well here, although his peak seasons are a bit scattered (but so are Sakic's). Lindros couldn't put together near-full seasons, Sakic's best seasons are also scattered, Fedorov wasn't that great for that many years, Selanne didn't drive possession like Forsberg (nor like Jagr or Lindros), and Kariya was just not as good as Forsberg at his best.

Prime: Again, besides Jagr, it's pretty close, except Kariya's prime is rather short and not as good as most/all of the others.

Career: Maybe to give some perspective, we can look at adjusted points above replacement level (with RL set at 0.5 adj PPG). These are how some stars of '90s stack up-

Jagr 1,127
Sakic 969
Yzerman 864
Messier 835
Selanne 810
Sundin 719
Modano 646
Forsberg 607
Shanahan 594
Fedorov 582
Kariya 565
Gilmour 563
Fleury 551
Lindros 544
Roenick 543
Mogilny 541
Tkachuk 534

It's really difficult to make a case that Lindros, Fedorov, and possibly Selanne were clearly better than Forsberg. I don't see any solid case for Kariya even matching Forsberg, let alone being better than him.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I don't think Selanne, Kariya, and Fedorov were generally better setup men than Forsberg was a goal-scorer.

However we deal with the problems of subjectively dissecting the skills required to rank them, there's only so much credit you can give Forsberg for his goal scoring against the playmaking of guys who actually finished top 10 in assists (multiple seasons in cases) - Forsberg having never had a single top 10 goal scoring season by comparison. I know it's not that simple, but it's a telling distinction nonetheless.

But imo, Kariya and Fedorov were absolutely better setup men than Forsberg was a goal scorer, regardless. Selanne... meh. Pretty even as opposites afaic.

 

[quoipourquoi]

However we deal with the problems of subjectively dissecting the skills required to rank them, there's only so much credit you can give Forsberg for his goal scoring against the playmaking of guys who actually finished top 10 in assists (multiple seasons in cases) - Forsberg having never had a single top 10 goal scoring season by comparison. I know it's not that simple, but it's a telling distinction nonetheless.

But imo, Kariya and Fedorov were absolutely better setup men than Forsberg was a goal scorer, regardless. Selanne... meh. Pretty even as opposites afaic.

So you directly reference top-10 finishes in Assists, and then say that Kariya (3rd, 8th) and Fedorov (9th) were better playmakers than Forsberg was a goal scorer but Selanne (4th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th) was about even? Where exactly is the consistency in your argument? If it's a telling distinction, why do you immediately go against it?

If you allow for Forsberg to be as good of a goal scorer as Teemu Selanne was a playmaker, then it should follow that he was a better goal scorer than Kariya and Fedorov were playmakers. If you look at per-game figures, Forsberg's highest finish in goals-per-game (4th) is higher than Fedorov's highest finish in assists-per-game (10th), higher than Kariya's highest finish in assists-per-game (5th), but behind Selanne's highest finish in assists-per-game (3rd) as well.

 

[Hasbro]

There are those who speak of him, however, as if he was on a higher level either offensively or defensively than his peers consistently over a substantial period of time.

And you are bringing out a quote about season and a half wonder Bertuzzi as proof that other players were consistently in his range?

And if you want to go after a NW Division forward from the DPE who benifited from revisionist history, Bert's your guy.

 

[JA]

And you are bringing out a quote about season and a half wonder Bertuzzi as proof that other players were consistently in his range?

In addition to point-per-game finishes and Selke Trophy voting discussions that have taken place in this thread, yes. Bertuzzi is an example of a player who was perceived as having similar puck-handling ability as Forsberg in 2003, according to Walz; those who finished with higher point-per-game averages most years than him also have a clear case to be on or above Forsberg's level in terms of offensive talent. It is exactly the fact that Bertuzzi was not consistently at that level which is so striking about the quotation.

Over the past decade, Bertuzzi's reputation as a top player between 2002 and 2003 has deteriorated significantly; he was at that level for only a brief time in his career. The point that he is being compared to Forsberg without having had any lengthy history as a top player (or any real history at all) prior to 2002 shows that there is no clear offensive gap between Peter and the other elite members of his generation. There is no sense of reverence that would have stopped a fairly unproven or less noteworthy player from being compared to an exceptional, rare talent.

If Forsberg was consistently above his peers offensively for a notable period of time, a comparison like that probably would not have happened at all. I'm sure Walz would have been more hesitant to make that comparison if that had been the case. This was during Forsberg's best year as well. I think it would have been a bit sketchy, for instance, if Todd's offensive talents were compared to Jaromir Jagr's; there is a certain reverence for Jagr's abilities that stops that comparison from reasonably being made. The difference between Bertuzzi and Lemieux is even greater than that, and a comparison of their offensive talent seems almost dumb. If a player like Bertuzzi could be compared to someone like Forsberg by such a player as Wes Walz, who saw them both equally within the same division, it means Forsberg had not separated himself from the pack enough to develop that reputation.

 

[Ola]

I agree with you in terms of best ever.

But Forsberg was the best in the game by a bit of a margin at his peak. Sooooo darn exciting and fun to watch.

I also think many — love — the style he had. You could do anything against stars at that time, and Forsberg just matched anything thrown at him. Most determined player ever?

 

[Czech Your Math]

But Forsberg was the best in the game by a bit of a margin at his peak.

I think the issue that many have with this type of statement is that his peak was not quite 1.5 seasons and occurred after having a whole regular season off. It was also during a period when all the other DPE superstars, except Sakic, had succumbed to injuries and such. Swedes have a knack for hitting their stride at the right time it seems: Naslund also excelled during that period, although Forsberg beat him out for the Ross/Hart, and the Sedins found that sweet spot when Crosby/Malkin were injured and Ovechkin got suspended and then started fading the following year.

 

[Uno Bench]

I think the issue that many have with this type of statement is that his peak was not quite 1.5 seasons and occurred after having a whole regular season off. It was also during a period when all the other DPE superstars, except Sakic, had succumbed to injuries and such. Swedes have a knack for hitting their stride at the right time it seems: Naslund also excelled during that period, although Forsberg beat him out for the Ross/Hart, and the Sedins found that sweet spot when Crosby/Malkin were injured and Ovechkin got suspended and then started fading the following year.

Uh, so if translating your insinuation to a more straight language, you are saying past top Swedish hockeyplayers are good, mostly when other top-players of other nationalities are injured or suspended? *faceplam*. Camouflaged anti-Swede-bias at its best.. Lol


. Someone mentioned Sellane and Kariya in the same mold as Forsberg. Many seem to have forgot how both of them begged to leave the ducks for the Avs to come play whit Forsberg (and Sakic). How they praised him when they got there. It was near embarrasing, they themselves obviously did not think they where near Forsberg at any level as hockeyplayers or humanoids

 

[Epsilon]

Uh, so if translating your insinuation to a more straight language, you are saying past top Swedish hockeyplayers are good, mostly when other top-players of other nationalities are injured or suspended? *faceplam*. Camouflaged anti-Swede-bias at its best.. Lol


. Someone mentioned Sellane and Kariya in the same mold as Forsberg. Many seem to have forgot how both of them begged to leave the ducks for the Avs to come play whit Forsberg (and Sakic). How they praised him when they got there. It was near embarrasing, they themselves obviously did not think they where near Forsberg at any level as hockeyplayers or humanoids

Good grief, talk about romanticizing.

 

[BraveCanadian]

. Someone mentioned Sellane and Kariya in the same mold as Forsberg. Many seem to have forgot how both of them begged to leave the ducks for the Avs to come play whit Forsberg (and Sakic). How they praised him when they got there. It was near embarrasing, they themselves obviously did not think they where near Forsberg at any level as hockeyplayers or humanoids

Good grief, talk about romanticizing.

hahaha woah boy

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

So you directly reference top-10 finishes in Assists, and then say that Kariya (3rd, 8th) and Fedorov (9th) were better playmakers than Forsberg was a goal scorer but Selanne (4th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th) was about even? Where exactly is the consistency in your argument? If it's a telling distinction, why do you immediately go against it?

Because, like I said: regardless, it's not that simple. Still, it's an immediately recognizable distinction. It was more an observation than a dissertation.

If you allow for Forsberg to be as good of a goal scorer as Teemu Selanne was a playmaker, then it should follow that he was a better goal scorer than Kariya and Fedorov were playmakers. If you look at per-game figures, Forsberg's highest finish in goals-per-game (4th) is higher than Fedorov's highest finish in assists-per-game (10th), higher than Kariya's highest finish in assists-per-game (5th), but behind Selanne's highest finish in assists-per-game (3rd) as well.

Or it could just mean that I allow for my observation that both Fedorov and Kariya were better with the puck on their stick than both of the other guys, and "better" at setting up other players than Forsberg was at accumulating goals. If I follow your logic to the letter, then I guess we have to put Lindros ahead of them all, and we know you don't want that.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Uh, so if translating your insinuation to a more straight language, you are saying past top Swedish hockeyplayers are good, mostly when other top-players of other nationalities are injured or suspended? *faceplam*. Camouflaged anti-Swede-bias at its best.. Lol

Forsberg had the level of talent that would make him among the very best in many eras, but not sure I'd say the same about Naslund or the Sedins. Were they really better than Sundin, most of whose prime was played in an era that had much more top end talent at forward?

 

[Boxscore]

Forsberg had the level of talent that would make him among the very best in many eras

I agree completely.

not sure I'd say the same about Naslund or the Sedins. Were they really better than Sundin, most of whose prime was played in an era that had much more top end talent at forward?

Again, I agree. There's no chance in hell that Naslund and/or the twins were better than Mats Sundin. If Mats played some of his peak years alongside a prime Bertuzzi or with a clone of himself (like the Sedins do) he would have put up monster numbers. Sundin was tasked with carrying teams on his back, incredible player.

 

[Hasbro]

Over the past decade, Bertuzzi's reputation as a top player between 2002 and 2003 has deteriorated significantly; he was at that level for only a brief time in his career.

HA!

If you want someone who people got carried away with their perception of talent it's Bertuzzi. Not two weeks ago I heard Bertuzzi called "the premier power forward in the NHL for five years" on this board. His decline gets regularly blamed on the suspension when it in fact started earlier that season.

The fact he may have been a strong puck handler is pretty much moot, since he rarely used that talent.

Hell he was a pre-lockout power forward who as a group (Tkachuk, Lindros, Primeau, Stevens, Gratton, Isbister, Nolan, Guerin, the Flyers...) were overrated.

 

[Uno Bench]

Good grief, talk about romanticizing.

I get it, you saw the word "romanticizing" in the headline, and now you like to test use it on posts whit information not matching your agenda. No probs, I will move on.

 

[Uno Bench]

Forsberg had the level of talent that would make him among the very best in many eras, but not sure I'd say the same about Naslund or the Sedins. Were they really better than Sundin, most of whose prime was played in an era that had much more top end talent at forward?

That was not the point of your previous post I responded to.

I'll respond to this then, I agree, Sundin was better than the Sedins and Näslund.

 

[Epsilon]

I get it, you saw the word "romanticizing" in the headline, and now you like to test use it on posts whit information not matching your agenda. No probs, I will move on.

Yeah because this nonsense:

It was near embarrasing, they themselves obviously did not think they where near Forsberg at any level as hockeyplayers or humanoids

is really "information".

 

[Wrath]

There was no anti-euro/swedish agenda or point to his post.


It was a simple observation that the best Swedish forwards thus far, have won their awards when the expected top competition, be it Canadian, Czech, etc. have been on "down years".

Nowhere did he say something along the lines of "he wouldn't have won if the Canadians were healthy" nor "Swedish players are only considered good when they have no competition".


Forsberg especially was dangerous all the time. The one season where he plays 75+ games and didn't have truly generational competition (Mario) just happened to be a year when the other top DPE forwards were injured. Forsberg could have easily won the Hart in 1998, 2000, 2002, or 2004 if he had the season he had in 2003.

I don't think he could beat out Jagr's best season (1999, 127 points, 20 and 26 more points than Selanne and Kariya who had 2nd and 3rd most points) or Sakic's best season (2001, 118 points 54 goals, 22 more points than anybody not named Jagr).

If he won over Hasek in 98 nobody would have batted an eye, especially seeing as the Hart has been a more forward-centric award ever since the Vezina and Norris were established.

He probably (almost definitely) wins over Pronger. Jagr was running away with it till he was injured. No forwards scored 100+ points.

He wins over Jose Theodore and Martin St. Louis easily, no argument needed.

TL;DR: Forsberg's Hart season was arguably better than most Hart seasons in the DPE. I don't see where the camoflauged anti-Swede bias is.

 

[Uno Bench]

Yeah because this nonsense:



is really "information".

Yeah, way to avoid the point. The point beeing that both Selanne and Karyia where romantic about Forsberg and the cup, and they where not the only ones. Good ol' Rob Blake too "romanticizing" about Forsberg and the Avs enough to go there. And Ray Bourque too, by the way. They where really romantic in those days, the players..

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah, way to avoid the point. The point beeing that both Selanne and Karyia where romantic about Forsberg and the cup, and they where not the only ones. Good ol' Rob Blake too "romanticizing" about Forsberg and the Avs enough to go there. And Ray Bourque too, by the way. They where really romantic in those days, the players..

Sakic and Roy each had just as much to do with the Avs being a desirable destination as Forsberg. In fact, Sakic was the guy penciled in as Kariya and Selanne's center before the season started, as Hejduk and Tanguay were already there with Forsberg. As for Blake, he was all about the $$$, and the Avs had more of it than most teams.

 

[Uno Bench]

Sakic and Roy each had just as much to do with the Avs being a desirable destination as Forsberg. In fact, Sakic was the guy penciled in as Kariya and Selanne's center before the season started, as Hejduk and Tanguay were already there with Forsberg. As for Blake, he was all about the $$$, and the Avs had more of it than most teams.

Yup, whatever, "desirable destination" you might as well said romanticized-desire or something to go whit the flow of the thread.

Seriously, the "avs had $$ "- argument dont apply on Selanne and Kariya who took major paycuts to go there. I remember it clearly. And yes Forsberg making borderline secondliners like Tanguay and Hejduk star players is impressive. He won the hart trophy, of course he was a reason for them to go there, the best player in the league, selected by the players

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sakic and Roy each had just as much to do with the Avs being a desirable destination as Forsberg. In fact, Sakic was the guy penciled in as Kariya and Selanne's center before the season started, as Hejduk and Tanguay were already there with Forsberg. As for Blake, he was all about the $$$, and the Avs had more of it than most teams.

Roy was retired. You're right about Kariya-Sakic-Selanne being the plan for the second line though. Blake could have gotten more on the market than he did when he signed with the Avalanche prior to becoming a UFA in 2001, so I don't know that your description was fair to him. He liked money, sure, but so did a lot of people.

That's not to say Kariya and Selanne didn't have respect for Forsberg; they did. But they knew they were penciled in for Joe Sakic.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Roy was retired. You're right about Kariya-Sakic-Selanne being the plan for the second line though. Blake could have gotten more on the market than he did when he signed with the Avalanche prior to becoming a UFA in 2001, so I don't know that your description was fair to him. He liked money, sure, but so did a lot of people.

That's not to say Kariya and Selanne didn't have respect for Forsberg; they did. But they knew they were penciled in for Joe Sakic.

Oops. Funny how I remember the detail of Kariya and Selanne being pencilled in for Joe Sakic but not Roy retiring the previous summer.

As for Blake, I guess it was a combination of contender + money, but I know money was the main reason he left LA