Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Honour Over Glory]

I saw the Pens apparently signed Artemi Kniazev to a PTO.

Matheson with more points than EK overall at 4.88M.

That's because Matheson didn't get the brilliant adjustments to his game by Hockey's Einstein - Mike Sullivan, a career 4th liner with zero skill telling elite players how to play elite.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Once upon a time with the Ducks perhaps. He's not much of a skater now. Average.

Yeah you're just wrong there.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Chicago was still tanking with guys like Kane, Toews, Debrincat and Saad still on the team. Getting a guy like RM does nothing to stop a lottery team. You still need decent players on the team to guide and help the next generation.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah you're just wrong there.

Go check his edge metrics

 

[Gurglesons]

In this team's situation? Yes, that is the path that they need to tread. Absolutely.
Re-tool on the fly is a half-measure they can't afford to do, if they want Cups in the next 10-15 years anyway. The chips they're willing to trade are too weak and too few in number to return players that will be proper, foundational pieces.
They're not in a position to discard such a massive amount of cap towards things that will not help them reach the summit later. They need to weaponize as much of it as possible, to compensate for years where GMs ignored the future.

Just because bad GMs or impatient, dumb ownership groups botch scorched earth doesn't mean they're not worth attempting. We have a good GM, one is a clever negotiator and has a very firm understanding of draft and development. A highly motivated former scout and GM of an AHL team for years. He will know how to do this.

If you think Dubas is a good GM, why aren't you trusting his process?

Matheson with more points than EK overall at 4.88M.

Why aren't you using 5v5 point per 60 numbers to talk about EK versus Matheson?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If you think Dubas is a good GM, why aren't you trusting his process?

Because it's a process that's hindered by ownership demands to still pretend to be relevant for a while. It's not fully his will.

Why aren't you using 5v5 point per 60 numbers to talk about EK versus Matheson?

I look at all forms of points. 5v5 gets brought up more because that's the extreme bulk of most players' deployment.
If you want we can compare PPP/P60 too. I'll tell you right now that it's far better than EK's though. 28 PPP's to EK's 17.

 

[Tom Hanks]

If anything like we've talked about over the past couple weeks the go completely out of it model has not seen success for six years.

With players taking more advantage of their circumstances ala McGroarty, sucking for years to "build" assets is no longer a surefire way to build. Every team that has done it recently has been the definition of mediocrity outside of Edmonton.

Even with Edmonton they had back to back rebuilds because they f***ed the first rebuild so badly the first time.

The Hall/Eberle etc Oilers had some of the worst team culture in in recent times

 

[Gurglesons]

Because it's a process that's hindered by ownership demands to still pretend to be relevant for a while. It's not fully his will.

Seems like a huge cop out. Dubas left Toronto because of meddling and was giving a ludicrous contract to come here. I think the reality is Dubas is trying to rebuild as quickly as possible.

As you know I’m not a fan of this process either.

I look at all forms of points. 5v5 gets brought up more because that's the extreme bulk of most players' deployment.
If you want we can compare PPP/P60 too. I'll tell you right now that it's far better than EK's though. 28 PPP's to EK's 17.

Much like EK in SJ, someone has to score. Matheson’s impacts in Montreal were not great.

Big fan of Matheson, but he’s a hot mess. EK65 was probably our best player last year.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the only real argument against getting McGroarty is if you think Yager is the better prospect. Which is a discussion, I guess, but personally I think McGroarty's ceiling and style are more intriguing than Yager's.

The "they're too old to matter" stuff is just terminally online HFboards brain. Yeah, dude, a really good prospect doesn't matter because he'll be like 27 or 28 by the time the Pens are probably ready to try and compete again.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the only real argument against getting McGroarty is if you think Yager is the better prospect. Which is a discussion, I guess, but personally I think McGroarty's ceiling and style are more intriguing than Yager's.

The "they're too old to matter" stuff is just terminally online HFboards brain. Yeah, dude, a really good prospect doesn't matter because he'll be like 27 or 28 by the time the Pens are probably ready to try and compete again.

I get the concept, but it's not like we are giving away future 1sts. We gave away Yager who is like 6 months older.

Nothing changes by acquiring McGroatse.cv.

We went from having a 19 year old top prospect to a 20 year old one.

And I don't buy the contractual stuff AB is getting at either. The Penguins will likely have plenty of cap to spend in the coming years. Groatse.cv on a big deal won't change things.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Go check his edge metrics

 

[AuroraBorealis]

EK65 was probably our best player last year.

Obviously Sid. Letang all day over EK last year for me, especially offensively.
I would also say Rust did better for his role than EK did at his. EK actively hurt the PP.

And I don't buy the contractual stuff AB is getting at either. The Penguins will likely have plenty of cap to spend in the coming years. Groatse.cv on a big deal won't change things.

That's totally fine. I don't care about trying to convince you guys. I'm not even sure if that's humanly possible anyway, on any Penguins-related topic.
Merely sharing my views.

I think youre misunderstanding by saying no one gets your post. People absolutely get it, its just extremely poor logic.

They clearly don't, because they relentlessly claim I think things that directly contradict my actual thoughts on the situation.
That couldn't be more evident than after reading your posts #1292 and #1298, adding in your own random trash to create a false narrative. Same goes for Emp. He tried to summarize things I said with his own little spin on things.
There's just a lot of arrogance there. So self-assured in your initial assumptions, every time.
But my question is, what warrants that arrogance? And what is the reason for the absence of humility?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Seems like a huge cop out. Dubas left Toronto because of meddling and was giving a ludicrous contract to come here. I think the reality is Dubas is trying to rebuild as quickly as possible.

No chance. Why acquire EK for 4 years at age 33, at the cost of a 1st, if you're trying to rebuild as fast as possible? They could have easily just let the bad contracts run out and had them all off the books by summer 2025. Instead EK's on the books at 10M until he's 37.
Why push to re-sign Sid when he's 37, for a boatload of money, if you're trying to build your new core? That's only gonna decelerate the process. They need that money for more important things than pushing for 8th-10th place finishes, and inevitable April golfing.
Are Jarry and Graves supposed to be big parts of the future? How old are they gonna be when the team are contenders? Why sign them last summer to huge money? Those contracts won't align with the team's trajectory for Cups at all.
Pettersson shouldn't be here anymore either. His value peaked after last year, and it's a great time to cash in.
Looks like they might re-sign him, but for what purpose? Mentor the young kids? His presence here won't save the team from misery for a good number of years. His new contract would kick in at age 29. He'll be deep into his 30's by the time they're ready to accomplish anything in the East.
If they do that it's stupid, and risky. He may decline later and have his trade value plummet.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

In this team's situation? Yes, that is the path that they need to tread. Absolutely.
Re-tool on the fly is a half-measure they can't afford to do, if they want Cups in the next 10-15 years anyway. The chips they're willing to trade are too weak and too few in number to return players that will be proper, foundational pieces.
They're not in a position to discard such a massive amount of cap towards things that will not help them reach the summit later. They need to weaponize as much of it as possible, to compensate for years where GMs ignored the future.

Just because bad GMs or impatient, dumb ownership groups botch scorched earth doesn't mean they're not worth attempting. We have a good GM, one is a clever negotiator and has a very firm understanding of draft and development. A highly motivated former scout and GM of an AHL team for years. He will know how to do this.


Matheson with more points than EK overall at 4.88M.

I'm all for the tank method in most rebuild situations, but the Pens can't bottom out with this core. Crosby alone would ensure they're hovering around a #10 pick or worse the next couple years, and he's too valuable to the organization to do anything but do right by.

Having a slightly older support player with great leadership qualities and the experience of a playoff run or two would be anything but bad for incoming lotto picks. You don't think Bedard would benefit from that right now?

 

[Pancakes]

I win

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I win

I've had time to think about this and I've come to the conclusion that I don't give a shit what you think.

 

[chethejet]

1the balancing of today and future was the rationale for Dubas. He is doing both here and knows he can support the present with a better bottom 6, believing Jarry. Graves and a healthy Rakell will be big reasons for the Pens getting back in the hunt. I think there is a real good possibility that this will be the best Pens team since 2017. Yes older for the core, but Bunting, the new guy, DOC emerging, Glass, can be a very good 3 line team with scoring. Fix the PP, competition for roster on the bottom 6 and more net front presence for Karlsson to utilize will really help the PP. As I was not on the Pens making the playoffs the last couple, I think with some luck health wise and younger legs to not have the older players have to carry the physical play as much, Pens can surprise here.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

1the balancing of today and future was the rationale for Dubas. He is doing both here and knows he can support the present with a better bottom 6, believing Jarry. Graves and a healthy Rakell will be big reasons for the Pens getting back in the hunt. I think there is a real good possibility that this will be the best Pens team since 2017. Yes older for the core, but Bunting, the new guy, DOC emerging, Glass, can be a very good 3 line team with scoring. Fix the PP, competition for roster on the bottom 6 and more net front presence for Karlsson to utilize will really help the PP. As I was not on the Pens making the playoffs the last couple, I think with some luck health wise and younger legs to not have the older players have to carry the physical play as much, Pens can surprise here.

It'll be a blast to see another first round exit where blokes blame the players and not Sullivan.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

1the balancing of today and future was the rationale for Dubas. He is doing both here and knows he can support the present with a better bottom 6, believing Jarry. Graves and a healthy Rakell will be big reasons for the Pens getting back in the hunt. I think there is a real good possibility that this will be the best Pens team since 2017. Yes older for the core, but Bunting, the new guy, DOC emerging, Glass, can be a very good 3 line team with scoring. Fix the PP, competition for roster on the bottom 6 and more net front presence for Karlsson to utilize will really help the PP. As I was not on the Pens making the playoffs the last couple, I think with some luck health wise and younger legs to not have the older players have to carry the physical play as much, Pens can surprise here.

I like the makeup of the team honestly. If our core guys were still in their primes it would be a cup contender.

 

[The Old Master]

I think youre misunderstanding by saying no one gets your post. People absolutely get it, its just extremely poor logic.

Say we pick 1OA in 2028, you really think a 24 year old McGroarty doesn’t fit that kids timeline?

I think it's more like some feel he might keep us from getting that 1OA

 

[Randy Butternubs]

No clue if he's still available and I'm not THAT big a fan of him, but I wonder if the Pens have any pieces for Zegras. Adding him and Rawr would pretty much transform the team's makeup and near future.

We jettison Jarry somewhere (Vancouver if Demko is done?) and take on Gibson with Zegras. That's probably not even a good start. Whatever... just thinking out loud.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Would have been impressed by kindergarten kyle if he got McGroarty without giving up Yager

Instead we got another rearranging of the desk chairs

Running in place.....again

Whatever....

 

[Pancakes]

I've had time to think about this and I've come to the conclusion that I don't give a shit what you think.

Good for you. I'm still right.

 

[Darren McCord]

I saw the Pens apparently signed Artemi Kniazev to a PTO.

Where did you see that? He is pretty young still. At least could be a good WBS addition.

 

[Doomsday]

I saw the Pens apparently signed Artemi Kniazev to a PTO.


That's because Matheson didn't get the brilliant adjustments to his game by Hockey's Einstein - Mike Sullivan, a career 4th liner with zero skill telling elite players how to play elite.