Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Pancakes]

As far as the tank versus no tank argument goes if you look at the cup winners since 2005:

Carolina: Staal
Pens: Sid/Geno/Maf
Ducks: Not built with top 5 picks
Wings: Not built with top 5 picks
Bruins: Not built with top 5 picks
Kings: Kopitar
Hawks: Kane, Toews
Caps: Ovechkin, Backstrom
Lightning: Stamkos, Hedman
Avs: Makar, Mackinnon
Blues: Pietrangelo
Vegas: Not built with top 5 picks (though kinda unique - their best player was Eichel and he obviously is a high pick). Plus they got to build via the expansion draft and many teams f***ed that up and gave them too many good players.
Panthers: Barkov, Ekblad

Pretty good mix of teams that won with top 5 picks and teams that didn't tbh.

The teams that have had the most sustained success in terms of making the playoffs and also winning multiple cups were teams that had top 5 picks though obviously with the Pens/Caps/Lightning.

Also the teams that won cups that didn't have to picks did still rely on elite young talent. They just happened to find said elite young talent later in the first or even beyond it. Wings for example took Datsyuk/Zetterberg with late picks. Ducks picked up Perry/Getzlaf late in the first round. Bruins found later round gems in Marchand/Bergeron.

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

 

[Andy99]

As far as the tank versus no tank argument goes if you look at the cup winners since 2005:

Carolina: Staal
Pens: Sid/Geno/Maf
Ducks: Not built with top 5 picks
Wings: Not built with top 5 picks
Bruins: Not built with top 5 picks
Kings: Kopitar
Hawks: Kane, Toews
Caps: Ovechkin, Backstrom
Lightning: Stamkos, Hedman
Avs: Makar, Mackinnon
Blues: Pietrangelo
Vegas: Not built with top 5 picks (though kinda unique - their best player was Eichel and he obviously is a high pick). Plus they got to build via the expansion draft and many teams f***ed that up and gave them too many good players.
Panthers: Barkov, Ekblad

Pretty good mix of teams that won with top 5 picks and teams that didn't tbh.

The teams that have had the most sustained success in terms of making the playoffs and also winning multiple cups were teams that had top 5 picks though obviously with the Pens/Caps/Lightning.

Also the teams that won cups that didn't have to picks did still rely on elite young talent. They just happened to find said elite young talent later in the first or even beyond it. Wings for example took Datsyuk/Zetterberg with late picks. Ducks picked up Perry/Getzlaf late in the first round. Bruins found later round gems in Marchand/Bergeron.

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

Yep, you need to find elite talent drafting and you don’t have to have an organization that’s that great at drafting if you have top 5 picks…in particular, a #1 Dman is most important…most of these teams had one

 

[Ugene Magic]

No clue if he's still available and I'm not THAT big a fan of him, but I wonder if the Pens have any pieces for Zegras. Adding him and Rawr would pretty much transform the team's makeup and near future.

We jettison Jarry somewhere (Vancouver if Demko is done?) and take on Gibson with Zegras. That's probably not even a good start. Whatever... just thinking out loud.

Zegras on the right side of PP #1 with Crosby would be a huge upgrade. Just less statue-est like movement ala Geno and more attacking the box both individually and passer like, and don't fall into the umbrella boring like refuge the teams usual #1 PP unit loves to lull everyone into. That's like, bottom 6 like finishing, like..... everyone give me a 'hell ya....!

 

[pistolpete11]

It's kind of a whatever trade. They are basically equal prospects. It's just a matter of what flavor you like more. Personally, I like the profile of McGroarty more, so I'm fine with it, but it doesn't really change much unless he plays in the NHL this year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

Yeah this is the point that really needs to be emphasized, and why I hate the "the only way for this team to win again is to tank" argument. If you have good management and scouting, you can build a contending team without top end picks. I think the Bruins are an absolutely golden example of this.

This team simply needs to be focusing on getting as many good player and high potential prospects as possible. McGroarty is the first piece that I feel is a part of their next "core", they just need to continue adding young players and prospects on par with him.

 

[eXile3]

As far as the tank versus no tank argument goes if you look at the cup winners since 2005:

Carolina: Staal
Pens: Sid/Geno/Maf
Ducks: Not built with top 5 picks
Wings: Not built with top 5 picks
Bruins: Not built with top 5 picks
Kings: Kopitar
Hawks: Kane, Toews
Caps: Ovechkin, Backstrom
Lightning: Stamkos, Hedman
Avs: Makar, Mackinnon
Blues: Pietrangelo
Vegas: Not built with top 5 picks (though kinda unique - their best player was Eichel and he obviously is a high pick). Plus they got to build via the expansion draft and many teams f***ed that up and gave them too many good players.
Panthers: Barkov, Ekblad

Pretty good mix of teams that won with top 5 picks and teams that didn't tbh.

The teams that have had the most sustained success in terms of making the playoffs and also winning multiple cups were teams that had top 5 picks though obviously with the Pens/Caps/Lightning.

Also the teams that won cups that didn't have to picks did still rely on elite young talent. They just happened to find said elite young talent later in the first or even beyond it. Wings for example took Datsyuk/Zetterberg with late picks. Ducks picked up Perry/Getzlaf late in the first round. Bruins found later round gems in Marchand/Bergeron.

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

I mean… the Hawks, Pens won 3? LA won 2 and Doughty was 6th overall?

Excluding the Knights because they had an expansion draft and Eichel. That’s three teams in almost 20 years.

Not really a good mix at all. Yes it can be done without tanking but you have to get lucky.

 

[SEALBound]

Dear lord some of you have lost it.

I get the argument that we need to be bad to get top players but:
1. Every shit team in the league getting the top picks has a McGroarty level player on it.

San Jose - Eklund
Chicago - Bedard
Anaheim - Zegras
Columbus - Marchenko
And it didn't stop any of them from blowing ass.

2. If McGroarty truly is going to topple our chances...wouldn't Yager do the same? So what's the difference?

As far as the tank versus no tank argument goes if you look at the cup winners since 2005:

Carolina: Staal
Pens: Sid/Geno/Maf
Ducks: Not built with top 5 picks
Wings: Not built with top 5 picks
Bruins: Not built with top 5 picks
Kings: Kopitar
Hawks: Kane, Toews
Caps: Ovechkin, Backstrom
Lightning: Stamkos, Hedman
Avs: Makar, Mackinnon
Blues: Pietrangelo
Vegas: Not built with top 5 picks (though kinda unique - their best player was Eichel and he obviously is a high pick). Plus they got to build via the expansion draft and many teams f***ed that up and gave them too many good players.
Panthers: Barkov, Ekblad

Pretty good mix of teams that won with top 5 picks and teams that didn't tbh.

The teams that have had the most sustained success in terms of making the playoffs and also winning multiple cups were teams that had top 5 picks though obviously with the Pens/Caps/Lightning.

Also the teams that won cups that didn't have to picks did still rely on elite young talent. They just happened to find said elite young talent later in the first or even beyond it. Wings for example took Datsyuk/Zetterberg with late picks. Ducks picked up Perry/Getzlaf late in the first round. Bruins found later round gems in Marchand/Bergeron.

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

I would say the way the league is trending, you definitely need a top 3, likely 1OV, pick as your foundation. Otherwise, you need to get a series of extremely lucky wins in the draft. I think you could be fine if you get Kopitar, Point, Kucherov, Fox, Vasi, etc who are all 1-2nd round picks but not top 1-3. What you also need is a solid crop of complementary players and you need them to be at a contact that they are outplaying.

Using Florida as a recent example - Verhaeghe, Bennett, ERod, Reinhart, Luostarinen - all of them were tremendous supporting players and they were ALL outplaying their contract. Bennett at $4mil? Reinhart at $6mil? I mean, those were $7mil and $9mil level players. So in addition to having that solid franchise piece to build around, you need to accrue the supporting cast and have them all perform well at the same. Having a couple young guys that can contribute really helps too.

I believe Emp has pointed this out in the past, as have I, but you really want to have a couple solid young roster players before you get that big franchise guy. Penguins had MAF, Malkin, THEN Sid, THEN Staal, and they had Whitney, Orpik, Army, EK, Malone, and got Gonchar in FA. As hilariously bad as 2005 was, the foundational pieces were in the organization. It just took a little while for them to mature and Shero to add a couple extra pieces. You don't want to be Chicago where you have Bedard...and...Nazar? They have so little. It's going to take awhile for them to build that team. Anaheim and San Jose on the other hand, have been accumulating a very nice crop of players. SJS getting Celebrini while also having Smith, Dickenson, Askarov, Eklund, etc will catapult them into contention once they all mature. They don't have to wait to surround Celebrini with talent or rush out and get it in FA like Chicago just had to.

We are in the process of collecting those players now. Believe it or not, you have a guy like McGroarty on the roster and still be bad and get a high pick. There's no requirement to trade out everything not bolted down for value. That's the Arizona process and they NEVER built a team that even remotely resembled a cup contender. Grabbing guys like Koivunen, Pono, Brunicke, Howe, and then the 1sts in the next 2-3 drafts...THEN you suck and get a 1OV, you'll be able to surround him with some decent talent. That would put us in the mold of Carolina or even us if our future top pick is Sid-like.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean… the Hawks, Pens won 3? LA won 2 and Doughty was 6th overall?

Excluding the Knights because they had an expansion draft and Eichel. That’s three teams in almost 20 years.

Not really a good mix at all. Yes it can be done without tanking but you have to get lucky.

As far as the tank versus no tank argument goes if you look at the cup winners since 2005:

Carolina: Staal
Pens: Sid/Geno/Maf
Ducks: Not built with top 5 picks
Wings: Not built with top 5 picks
Bruins: Not built with top 5 picks
Kings: Kopitar
Hawks: Kane, Toews
Caps: Ovechkin, Backstrom
Lightning: Stamkos, Hedman
Avs: Makar, Mackinnon
Blues: Pietrangelo
Vegas: Not built with top 5 picks (though kinda unique - their best player was Eichel and he obviously is a high pick). Plus they got to build via the expansion draft and many teams f***ed that up and gave them too many good players.
Panthers: Barkov, Ekblad

Pretty good mix of teams that won with top 5 picks and teams that didn't tbh.

The teams that have had the most sustained success in terms of making the playoffs and also winning multiple cups were teams that had top 5 picks though obviously with the Pens/Caps/Lightning.

Also the teams that won cups that didn't have to picks did still rely on elite young talent. They just happened to find said elite young talent later in the first or even beyond it. Wings for example took Datsyuk/Zetterberg with late picks. Ducks picked up Perry/Getzlaf late in the first round. Bruins found later round gems in Marchand/Bergeron.

One way or the other you have to find that elite talent in the draft. But it doesn't necessarily have to be done with a tear down.

Am I going crazy? Doughty was picked 2nd overall after Stamkos.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean… the Hawks, Pens won 3? LA won 2 and Doughty was 6th overall?

Excluding the Knights because they had an expansion draft and Eichel. That’s three teams in almost 20 years.

Not really a good mix at all. Yes it can be done without tanking but you have to get lucky.

I think this is correlation rather than causation. Good teams win cups because they have good players. Getting high end draft picks is probably the easiest way to get good players, but it's not the only way.

I think Boston is the best example for being a consistent contender without needing to rely on top picks. They still got "lucky" with their draft picks by hitting with Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, McAvoy and such without high 1sts, but they just show that smart drafting and development can be another route to maintain a consistent contender.

This is a huge if, but if the Penguins can hit on their mid 1sts in the remaining years of Crosby and Malkin, I don't see why they can't have close to a contending caliber core very soon after Crosby and Malkin retire. You can get guys like Barzal, Boldy, McAvoy, Thomas, Miller and such with mid 1sts. If McGroarty hits that upside and you hit on your 3 mid 1sts from 2025-2027, I don't see why that can't be a contending caliber core.

It's not Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Kessel, but I feel like a core of say Barzal (#16 overall 2015), McAvoy (#14 overall 2016), Thomas (#20 overall 2017) and Boldy (#12 overall 2019) would be a contending caliber core.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

I saw the Pens apparently signed Artemi Kniazev to a PTO.

This is a made up name.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This is a made up name.

Nikolai Knyzhov*

 

[Ugene Magic]

Yeah this is the point that really needs to be emphasized, and why I hate the "the only way for this team to win again is to tank" argument. If you have good management and scouting, you can build a contending team without top end picks. I think the Bruins are an absolutely golden example of this.

This team simply needs to be focusing on getting as many good player and high potential prospects as possible. McGroarty is the first piece that I feel is a part of their next "core", they just need to continue adding young players and prospects on par with him.

But Boston missed the playoffs a couple times and still added to their crop, as well as trading away some.

Like Phil Kessel to Toronto for 2 - 1st round picks 2010 and 2011 Tyler Seguin 2 OA and Dougie Hamilton 9 OA and having 3 1sts in 2015 one being a 1st from Calgary for Hamilton. Picks 13/14/15 OA with Jake Debrusk at #14 OA with their own pick.

David Pastrnak at 25 OA in 2014

Missing the playoffs in 2015 and in 2016

The following season 2016 they pick McAvoy with the 14 OA.

The Bruins had multiple top end picks to work off of even if they screwed some up.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Am I going crazy? Doughty was picked 2nd overall after Stamkos.

Not sure about the crazy part but Doughty was indeed #2 overall

 

[eXile3]

Am I going crazy? Doughty was picked 2nd overall after Stamkos.

You’re right. Not sure why I thought it was 6th. Kopitar went 11th.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Nikolai Knyzhov*

The defenseman who played for Quinn on those powerhouse Sharks teams.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

No chance. Why acquire EK for 4 years at age 33, at the cost of a 1st, if you're trying to rebuild as fast as possible? They could have easily just let the bad contracts run out and had them all off the books by summer 2025. Instead EK's on the books at 10M until he's 37.

Dubas has the same charge as Hextall did - try to send the Hall of Fame core out on a high note while working to restock the system so as to make the rebuilding process as short as possible. FSG does not want to suck for 5+ years. They're fine with 2 or 3, but that's it.

So, Dubas brought in reinforcements in the hopes that the Pens really were just a couple of changes away. They're not. He's suggested as much, that he misevaluated where the team was when he first came in.

In response, he's accelerated the rebuilding process by trading Guentzel and using cap space to acquire picks.

Why push to re-sign Sid when he's 37, for a boatload of money, if you're trying to build your new core? That's only gonna decelerate the process. They need that money for more important things than pushing for 8th-10th place finishes, and inevitable April golfing.

1. No GM wants to be the one to push Sidney Crosby out of Pittsburgh.
2. Crosby's contract will be completely fair and only for a few years
3. Crosby has a lot of value to a rebuilding team, too - namely, selling tickets as he chases this milestone or that milestone. And tickets will be in demand if he announces his final season ahead of time, as people will want to see him one last time.

Are Jarry and Graves supposed to be big parts of the future? How old are they gonna be when the team are contenders? Why sign them last summer to huge money? Those contracts won't align with the team's trajectory for Cups at all.

Every single contract on the Pens roster ends by 2027-28. Graves and Jarry can be moved before that. None of the Penguins' contracts is immovable.

Pettersson shouldn't be here anymore either. His value peaked after last year, and it's a great time to cash in.

He very well might not be here by the time the deadline passes.

 

[Andy99]

Saw this on a site…Puusty would be picked up on waivers more than Poulin…he better make the team or trade him…

• With the Penguins adding some extra forward depth over the summer, Matt Vensel of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggests that winger Valtteri Puustinen is no lock to make Pittsburgh’s roster in training camp. The 25-year-old became an NHL regular in December and picked up 20 points in 52 games after that, a respectable point total considering he averaged less than 12 minutes a game. Signed for two years at the league minimum, Puustinen could be an intriguing potential waiver claim should he not break camp with Pittsburgh.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But Boston missed the playoffs a couple times and still added to their crop, as well as trading away some.

Like Phil Kessel to Toronto for 2 - 1st round picks 2010 and 2011 Tyler Seguin 2 OA and Dougie Hamilton 9 OA and having 3 1sts in 2015 one being a 1st from Calgary for Hamilton. Picks 13/14/15 OA with Jake Debrusk at #14 OA with their own pick.

David Pastrnak at 25 OA in 2014

Missing the playoffs in 2015 and in 2016

The following season 2016 they pick McAvoy with the 14 OA.

The Bruins had multiple top end picks to work off of even if they screwed some up.

Okay? Most teams don't make the playoffs for 15+ straight years like the Penguins did.

You bolded the "Bruins are a golden example of this" when completely ignoring the previous sentence:

"If you have good management and scouting, you can build a contending team without top end picks"

That is factually what the Bruins did and mentioning "they got lucky with Pastrnak and McAvoy" is literally ignoring the previous sentence.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Saw this on a site…Puusty would be picked up on waivers more than Poulin…he better make the team or trade him…

• With the Penguins adding some extra forward depth over the summer, Matt Vensel of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette suggests that winger Valtteri Puustinen is no lock to make Pittsburgh’s roster in training camp. The 25-year-old became an NHL regular in December and picked up 20 points in 52 games after that, a respectable point total considering he averaged less than 12 minutes a game. Signed for two years at the league minimum, Puustinen could be an intriguing potential waiver claim should he not break camp with Pittsburgh.

If there was enough interest in Puustinen to make him likely to be claimed off waivers, I don't know why Puustinen re-signed here in the first place. He was a Group 6 UFA after last year, but still re-signed with the Penguins for 2 years at league minimum.

I really doubt Puustinen re-signs here for the role and contract he got if there was more interest in him around the league than how the Penguins view him.

 

[Pancakes]

I mean… the Hawks, Pens won 3? LA won 2 and Doughty was 6th overall?

Excluding the Knights because they had an expansion draft and Eichel. That’s three teams in almost 20 years.

Not really a good mix at all. Yes it can be done without tanking but you have to get lucky.

It's definitely harder without top 5 picks of course. Any idiot gm can draft Crosby. It takes a gm with some good luck and drafting skill to find a Pastrnak etc.

Point is though that it can be done and considering we're unlikely to be getting top 5 picks in the immediate future we should be happy that it's a possibility.

If there was enough interest in Puustinen to make him likely to be claimed off waivers, I don't know why Puustinen re-signed here in the first place. He was a Group 6 UFA after last year, but still re-signed with the Penguins for 2 years at league minimum.

I really doubt Puustinen re-signs here for the role and contract he got if there was more interest in him around the league than how the Penguins view him.

That's what I said as well but people have a boner for him around here.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Okay? Most teams don't make the playoffs for 15+ straight years like the Penguins did.

You bolded the "Bruins are a golden example of this" when completely ignoring the previous sentence:

"If you have good management and scouting, you can build a contending team without top end picks"

That is factually what the Bruins did and mentioning "they got lucky with Pastrnak and McAvoy" is literally ignoring the previous sentence.

But you're ignoring they had top end picks, in Kessel, Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, and yes hits in the first round count in Pastrnak, McAvoy and even to a lesser extent Debrusk.



They hit on some 2nd rounders in Bergeron, Krejci, and they hit on Marchand in the 3rd round the year they took Kessel 5th OA. No different than the Pens getting Letang the year Crosby was picked #1.

Boston had top high end picks.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think this is correlation rather than causation. Good teams win cups because they have good players. Getting high end draft picks is probably the easiest way to get good players, but it's not the only way.

I think Boston is the best example for being a consistent contender without needing to rely on top picks. They still got "lucky" with their draft picks by hitting with Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, McAvoy and such without high 1sts, but they just show that smart drafting and development can be another route to maintain a consistent contender.

This is a huge if, but if the Penguins can hit on their mid 1sts in the remaining years of Crosby and Malkin, I don't see why they can't have close to a contending caliber core very soon after Crosby and Malkin retire. You can get guys like Barzal, Boldy, McAvoy, Thomas, Miller and such with mid 1sts. If McGroarty hits that upside and you hit on your 3 mid 1sts from 2025-2027, I don't see why that can't be a contending caliber core.

It's not Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Kessel, but I feel like a core of say Barzal (#16 overall 2015), McAvoy (#14 overall 2016), Thomas (#20 overall 2017) and Boldy (#12 overall 2019) would be a contending caliber core.

This is why I keep bemoaning the fact we keep on picking guys like Poulin, Pickering, etc. You're dead in the water if those guys don't turn into the names you list above.

Whether it be scouting or development or a combination of both, the Pens can't afford to keep using 1st round picks on guys who end up being bottom line/bottom pairing filler (at best).

 

[Andy99]

If there was enough interest in Puustinen to make him likely to be claimed off waivers, I don't know why Puustinen re-signed here in the first place. He was a Group 6 UFA after last year, but still re-signed with the Penguins for 2 years at league minimum.

I really doubt Puustinen re-signs here for the role and contract he got if there was more interest in him around the league than how the Penguins view him.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was promised an opportunity to be here all season, or that he was told he was in the Pens’ plans to be a regular player…he signed so early that I’m sure something like that was the case and his agent probably didn’t explore anything…or maybe this is the place he thought had the best opportunity and he wanted to be settled…I’m sure things changed when Dubas started collected forwards like rabbits lol

 

[Empoleon8771]

But you're ignoring they had top end picks, in Kessel, Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, and yes hits in the first round count in Pastrnak, McAvoy and even to a lesser extent Debrusk.



They hit on some 2nd rounders in Bergeron, Krejci, and they hit on Marchand in the 3rd round the year they took Kessel 5th OA. No different than the Pens getting Letang the year Crosby was picked #1.

Boston had top high end picks.

Seguin and Hamilton were both high picks that came from good management (or bad management by Toronto if you'd rather call it that), and neither of those guys had a notable impact on the Bruins maintaining a consistent contender level for most of the last 20 years. The Bruins have maintained their contender level though good management and drafting well, it has nothing to do with tanking to get high picks.

Are you not reading the rest of the discussion on here? My point is that this team doesn't need to tank and get super high picks to get a championship caliber core. Hence why I've said some variation of this multiple times:

This is a huge if, but if the Penguins can hit on their mid 1sts in the remaining years of Crosby and Malkin, I don't see why they can't have close to a contending caliber core very soon after Crosby and Malkin retire. You can get guys like Barzal, Boldy, McAvoy, Thomas, Miller and such with mid 1sts. If McGroarty hits that upside and you hit on your 3 mid 1sts from 2025-2027, I don't see why that can't be a contending caliber core.

This entire discussion over the last few pages has been around the idea of the Penguins needing to suck as much as possible to get as high of draft picks as possible. The point I'm making is that this team can build a championship caliber core without tanking if they draft well with the mid 1sts they'll likely have over the next few years.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This is why I keep bemoaning the fact we keep on picking guys like Poulin, Pickering, etc. You're dead in the water if those guys don't turn into the names you list above.

Whether it be scouting or development or a combination of both, the Pens can't afford to keep using 1st round picks on guys who end up being bottom line/bottom pairing filler (at best).

Here's the thing, Boston didn't win 3 cups or get to 4 finals. They managed 3 finals and a single cup.

Would people here trade with Bostons results for the Pens?

I would think not, or they should not.