Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, and that's on the optimistic side.
Let's say it's 2029 then. What we want is 2025, 2026 high-end picks. We want their ELCs to completely overlap with our window.
McGroarty at 25 y/o at that time will only be helpful if his AAV is reasonable (or a bargain) relative to what he brings. Otherwise you can just find another top-six winger in free agency and get similar results.

I suppose there's also the consideration that high-end, young free agents don't choose the Penguins over others historically. That needs to be factored in as well. We may have to grow our own just for quality to be here, or only the trade (sacrifice) avenue is open to us.

What are you talking about? A prime aged McGroarty won't help the team unless he's on a super cheap deal?

Saying that this team needs top prospects on ELCs or bargain deals to have a window is one of the most bizarre things you've ever said here. What team in recent memory was built like that?

 

[Ugene Magic]

I take it on face value that we likely got better. It was a fair trade. Winnipeg didn’t have to trade him and there’d be other teams who would also want McGroarty.

Each to their own though and they are still prospects so people have their preferences.

Well, the other option is having both, so I would have opted for that. People are pining one against the other. One forces himself into opening day roster making the prospect pool taking a hit.

What if he tanks?

There's a chance he doesn't take. What will he do or force the team into?

I think that's the bigger take on the situation.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, the other option is having both, so I would have opted for that. People are pining one against the other. One forces himself into opening day roster making the prospect pool taking a hit.

What if he tanks?

There's a chance he doesn't take. What will he do or force the team into?

I think that's the bigger take on the situation.

I don't think this was an option. Saying it was is weird tbh. Cutter returned a similar package.

Goalies are f***in' weird, man. I would not feel comfortable throwing a buncha assets at a goalie, let alone one who has basically zero NHL experience. I get that a lot of people think he's a sure thing and will be fantastic, and he very well might, but again--goalies are just f***ing weird.

Russian goalies aren't really. Every high profile goalie from Russia has come over and been a stud in the NHL recently.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, the other option is having both, so I would have opted for that. People are pining one against the other. One forces himself into opening day roster making the prospect pool taking a hit.

What if he tanks?

There's a chance he doesn't take. What will he do or force the team into?

I think that's the bigger take on the situation.

Why should we think that was an option on the table?

I think the 2025 1st+ for McGroarty could have been a discussion, but that's about it. You're not getting McGroarty for a package centered around Pickering or Koivunen.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Need it for what? To make round 1 and lose there instead of getting 9th or 10th? To draft lower?
We need guys like him when we're contenders again, and it can make an actual difference with Cup chasing.
McGroarty's only real value to the team will come if he's traded for futures later on.
If they keep him, all it will accomplish is burning ELC years without reward, and improve their standings points at a time where it's better if they're worse.

His development just doesn't line up with our window, unfortunately. I wanna be clear that I like the trade, but there's only value in it if they take the right steps with him later.

This seems like complaining for the sake of complaining.

And if there's anyone on here who knows about complaining for the sake of complaining, it's me.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Shitty skaters scare the bejesus out of me. If I was a scout, I'd probably just ignore them entirely.

I hear he’s worked on his skating a lot, but Rutger still gets that comment quite a bit - his skating isn't there yet but he might get there. That's like three years worth of "he might get there" and at the College level it's difficult to say where he is at and how much his next steps have fixed that this summer. But jeez you wonder if he shows up to camp and can't keep up with Sid, lol.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

n't really. Every high profile goalie from Russia has come over and been a stud in the NHL recently.

Here's hoping Fedotov ruins that trend. Nothing against the guy personally, more power to older giants; rather, f*** Philly.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I take it on face value that we likely got better. It was a fair trade. Winnipeg didn’t have to trade him and there’d be other teams who would also want McGroarty.

Each to their own though and they are still prospects so people have their preferences.

Rutger didn't want to go to any team that he didn't feel he had a shot making the roster. So the Pens were one where he felt like he could, he seems to think he's NHL ready and the Jets didn't agree with that and wanted to start him in the AHL and then see if he could help in the playoffs if he showed he was ready. It would have burned his first year like he reportedly wanted to but in the end it was more about not being in the AHL and thinking he's NHL caliber now.

Given I've read a ton about his skating being somewhat of an issue, I'm not sure how this is gonna end. There's a very good chance he ends up in wbs to start the year because Sullivan is, well, Sullivan. If Rutger ends up spending most of the year in wbs, lol this could get very interesting and hey at least we'll have drama to distract us from the usual dipshit things Sullivan and now his pet gimp Quinn will do.

I am more annoyed that the world cup isn't before the season. Or at least first two months in. Because I want Sullivan to embarrass himself sooner to add fire to being fired for dipshit coaching decisions sooner.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

What are you talking about? A prime aged McGroarty won't help the team unless he's on a super cheap deal?

Saying that this team needs top prospects on ELCs or bargain deals to have a window is one of the most bizarre things you've ever said here. What team in recent memory was built like that?

It's very simple, and not bizarre at all. They will need sufficient net positive AAV's relative to performance at the time they're approaching Cup worthiness again.
If you have ELC's with highly touted prospects at that time, odds are they are giving you 3+ million performance at sub 1 mil AAV. Like what was Guentzel's performance in 2017 worth? A lot. Big net gain for the team there, based on his contract. They used that advantage to win. Same with Murray, twice.
McGroarty at 25 years old will have his ELC exhausted. So while he can contribute to a Cup, odds are at that time he will have gotten a hefty top-six contract and the odds of him outplaying it go down dramatically. And if that's the case, it's not difficult to find another top-six wing in free agency who will do the same. Or if he REALLY takes off and plays like an 8 mil guy and gets paid 8, you can simply find a 5 mil winger and a 3 mil winger, and take the balanced scoring approach. Probably will get similar or better results overall.
He's only really critical for the future if what he's bringing (when it matters) relative to what he's paid is irreplaceable.

This seems like complaining for the sake of complaining.

And if there's anyone on here who knows about complaining for the sake of complaining, it's me.

There was no complaining in my post whatsoever. I actually said I liked the deal, but that it only will impact the team positively if they take the necessary steps later.
But people here rarely read properly and start typing away after like sentence #2. It's a pretty exhausting thing, when so many people do this.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't think this was an option. Saying it was is weird tbh. Cutter returned a similar package.



Russian goalies aren't really. Every high profile goalie from Russia has come over and been a stud in the NHL recently.

Yeah if you go back a few, any goalie drafted as high or with as much hype as Askarov has gone on to be a #1 in this league.

Varlamov
Georgiev
Sheshterkin
Vasilievskiy
Sorokin
Samsonov - probably the only one that's really struggled to maintain being a #1 but could turn it around in Vegas.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's very simple, and not bizarre at all. They will need sufficient net positive AAV's relative to performance at the time they're approaching Cup worthiness again.
If you have ELC's with highly touted prospects at that time, odds are they are giving you 3+ million performance at sub 1 mil AAV. Like what was Guentzel's performance in 2017 worth? A lot. Big net gain for the team there, based on his contract. They used that advantage to win. Same with Murray, twice.
McGroarty at 25 years old will have his ELC exhausted. So while he can contribute to a Cup, odds are at that time he will have gotten a hefty top-six contract and the odds of him outplaying it go down dramatically. And if that's the case, it's not difficult to find another top-six wing in free agency who will do the same. Or if he REALLY takes off and plays like an 8 mil guy and gets paid 8, you can simply find a 5 mil winger and a 3 mil winger, and take the balanced scoring approach. Probably will get similar or better results overall.
He's only really critical for the future if what he's bringing (when it matters) relative to what he's paid is irreplaceable.

Vegas had literally zero ELC players of note on their cup winning team in 2023, so I have no clue what basis you're coming from to say "this team's window is only when their top prospects are on ELCs".

You're pointing out Guentzel in 2017 as if the Penguins core wasn't Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang and Fleury and all were making a significant amount of money. Especially the "if McGroarty is an $8 million player, you can simplify and find a $5 million winger and $3 million winger", the Penguins literally wouldn't have won a cup in either 2016 or 2017 had they done that with Kessel.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Rutger didn't want to go to any team that he didn't feel he had a shot making the roster. So the Pens were one where he felt like he could, he seems to think he's NHL ready and the Jets didn't agree with that and wanted to start him in the AHL and then see if he could help in the playoffs if he showed he was ready. It would have burned his first year like he reportedly wanted to but in the end it was more about not being in the AHL and thinking he's NHL caliber now.

Given I've read a ton about his skating being somewhat of an issue, I'm not sure how this is gonna end. There's a very good chance he ends up in wbs to start the year because Sullivan is, well, Sullivan. If Rutger ends up spending most of the year in wbs, lol this could get very interesting and hey at least we'll have drama to distract us from the usual dipshit things Sullivan and now his pet gimp Quinn will do.

I am more annoyed that the world cup isn't before the season. Or at least first two months in. Because I want Sullivan to embarrass himself sooner to add fire to being fired for dipshit coaching decisions sooner.

I can see him on opening night. Sully hate aside (from your end ) he hasn’t had a prospect this good.

I mean obviously Jake but he didn’t have the pedigree and had to go through WBS even if it was only briefly and a quick restint due to Kunitz coming back from injury until they could get him on the roster permanently.

Yeah if you go back a few, any goalie drafted as high or with as much hype as Askarov has gone on to be a #1 in this league.

Varlamov
Georgiev
Sheshterkin
Vasilievskiy
Sorokin
Samsonov - probably the only one that's really struggled to maintain being a #1 but could turn it around in Vegas.

Obviously lots of variables but still interesting

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825605436848181346

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I can see him on opening night. Sully hate aside (from your end ) he hasn’t had a prospect this good.

I mean obviously Jake but he didn’t have the pedigree and had to go through WBS even if it was only briefly and a quick restint due to Kunitz coming back from injury until they could get him on the roster permanently.



Obviously lots of variables but still interesting

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825605436848181346

Jake was a third round pick that needed booster seats in vehicles and restaurants that grew into a slightly bigger toddler and elite scorer. That was just lucky scouting and development in college where his skill kept opening doors for him.

Rutger is a prospect that was highly touted his draft year and was one of the better players on the WJC US team (played with Lucius as well), it Rutger had better wheels he was likely going top 10 but because his skating didn't look polished and he didn't have that high end speed or quickness, he was going to go around where he ended up. If Sullivan f***s around, he's gonna find out that Dubas actually does have a pair of bollocks afterall.

We hope anyway.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I can see him on opening night. Sully hate aside (from your end ) he hasn’t had a prospect this good.

I mean obviously Jake but he didn’t have the pedigree and had to go through WBS even if it was only briefly and a quick restint due to Kunitz coming back from injury until they could get him on the roster permanently.



Obviously lots of variables but still interesting

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825605436848181346

That list doesn't really mean anything. In most cases development is very important and how they're brought up in the system. A lot of those names took longer and a few goalie coach changes or trades before they got there.

I think the general consensus with Askarov was always that he was not just hype, but showed a lot of that hype was easier to justify seeing him play in North America the last couple of years. It's easier to get a read on him than say if he was in the KHL up until now and then San Jose dealt for him. There'd be some serious risk then.

If I'm Grier I fire Speer and find a very good goalie coach because you don't want to f*** around with this investment. Maybe ask Nabokov to personally work with Askarov or something.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Why should we think that was an option on the table?

I think the 2025 1st+ for McGroarty could have been a discussion, but that's about it. You're not getting McGroarty for a package centered around Pickering or Koivunen.

The package was the 1st + Pickering or Koivunen.

Dubas was probably the only GM to offer up a top prospect.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Vegas had literally zero ELC players of note on their cup winning team in 2023, so I have no clue what basis you're coming from to say "this team's window is only when their top prospects are on ELCs".

You're pointing out Guentzel in 2017 as if the Penguins core wasn't Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang and Fleury and all were making a significant amount of money. Especially the "if McGroarty is an $8 million player, you can simplify and find a $5 million winger and $3 million winger", the Penguins literally wouldn't have won a cup in either 2016 or 2017 had they done that with Kessel.

You can win without ELC's or bargain bridge contracts, but then you're banking on a lot of guys outplaying their contracts in the same year.
The math starts to get bad the more you rely on that. It puts more pressure on the GM to be great with his signings.
It's easier when you have big net positive AAV's happening with the youth. That allows wiggle room with the contracts of others.

It's about the cumulative. That net positive with contracts needs to be happening somewhere on the roster.
Kessel probably exceeded his AAV in the 2016 and 2017 playoffs, so that was fine. But for every Kessel, there's a ton of highly paid guys who play below it.
I believe in making high % decisions. We knew that when we got Kessel at 6.8, he had good odds of outplaying it with his linemate strength here, based on his history. And that's what happened.

I'm not opposed at all to having McGroarty here at 25 y/o, but the AAV needs to be right too.

As for the forced usage of "literally" (twice)...please stop. I can't take people seriously when they use it on repeat, and it makes me very likely to disengage entirely.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Need it for what? To make round 1 and lose there instead of getting 9th or 10th? To draft lower?
We need guys like him when we're contenders again, and it can make an actual difference with Cup chasing.
McGroarty's only real value to the team will come if he's traded for futures later on.
If they keep him, all it will accomplish is burning ELC years without reward, and improve their standings points at a time where it's better if they're worse.

His development just doesn't line up with our window, unfortunately. I wanna be clear that I like the trade, but there's only value in it if they take the right steps with him later.

They’re 9 months apart in age

 

[Gurglesons]

I’m not really worried about Sullivan with McGroarty. Much more concerned about him and Cody Glass.

 

[Pancakes]

I hear he’s worked on his skating a lot, but Rutger still gets that comment quite a bit - his skating isn't there yet but he might get there. That's like three years worth of "he might get there" and at the College level it's difficult to say where he is at and how much his next steps have fixed that this summer. But jeez you wonder if he shows up to camp and can't keep up with Sid, lol.

Rakell rates pretty poorly on those edge skating metrics and obviously just from the eye test he's not the quickest guy or even all that fast when he does get to his top speed. And he plays well with Sid.

I think Rutger will be fine unless his skating is even worse than that. Judging by the clips I've seen it's hard to say tbh because it's all against college skaters so who the f knows. We'll see in camp I guess.

But yeah whenever a prospect's weakness is his skating that makes me quite nervous.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Vegas had literally zero ELC players of note on their cup winning team in 2023, so I have no clue what basis you're coming from to say "this team's window is only when their top prospects are on ELCs".

You're pointing out Guentzel in 2017 as if the Penguins core wasn't Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang and Fleury and all were making a significant amount of money. Especially the "if McGroarty is an $8 million player, you can simplify and find a $5 million winger and $3 million winger", the Penguins literally wouldn't have won a cup in either 2016 or 2017 had they done that with Kessel.

Vegas also exploited the f*** out of the LTIR like Tampa did for two cups and ended up dealing away a lot of their prospects and picks to get players and retention as well as magically healing players that made miraculous recoveries for game 1 of the playoffs.

They got a taste of the finals and decided to ruin any and all relationships with players whenever they wanted, drafted a racist because of potential, Vegas literally doesn't give a shit so really f*** them and their process and they're a bad example unless you're using them for a bad example.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Rakell rates pretty poorly on those edge skating metrics and obviously just from the eye test he's not the quickest guy or even all that fast when he does get to his top speed. And he plays well with Sid.

I think Rutger will be fine unless his skating is even worse than that. Judging by the clips I've seen it's hard to say tbh because it's all against college skaters so who the f knows. We'll see in camp I guess.

But yeah whenever a prospect's weakness is his skating that makes me quite nervous.

One of the reasons I like Rakell back on the Ducks for years was because he was a solid skater. Weird to hear that as a knock on Rakell.

Literally the most opposite thing I've ever heard about Raks. Even in his draft year when I was a fan and hoped the Pens would draft him, one of his strengths was his speed/skating. But nah, we needed f***ing Joe Morrow.

Rutger meanwhile has had comments about his skating basically his entire scouting as a prospect and even after his draft. It's an area that most cited as a concern but then try to lessen the blow by saying "but he's not slow" lol.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

They’re 9 months apart in age

And? Where in my post did I say it was important to keep Yager?
What point are you trying to make?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

And? Where in my post did I say it was important to keep Yager?
What point are you trying to make?

Unserious posts get unserious replies

If you want my actual thoughts your logic is really stupid. Basically the Pens should have no good players until they are serious contenders again. How do you think you become a serious contender?

Like are they just not supposed to draft or add anyone until like 2032? they can’t fold the franchise until Aurora Borealis sees fit.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Unserious posts get unserious replies

If you want my actual thoughts your logic is really stupid. Basically the Pens should have no good players until they are serious contenders again. How do you think you become a serious contender?

Like are they just not supposed to draft or add anyone until like 2032? they can’t fold the franchise until Aurora Borealis sees fit.

This is effectively the argument being made, any improvements this team makes are negatives because they need to be as bad as possible as soon as possible to be good again in the future.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Unserious posts get unserious replies

If you want my actual thoughts your logic is really stupid. Basically the Pens should have no good players until they are serious contenders again. How do you think you become a serious contender?

Like are they just not supposed to draft or add anyone until like 2032? they can’t fold the franchise until Aurora Borealis sees fit.

It’s the sum of all the parts for a Stanley Cup roster. Some play better than their cap hit, some don’t. Some excel in particular skills , some are okay at everything, some are elite. Some are older, some are younger.

Now how do you get them. Well it’s a combo of drafting, trading and free agency. Sometimes a GM can make some of those happen, other times it’s waiting and sometimes you just gotta deal with what’s available.

Crazy that anyone thinks McGroarty can’t be a part of something here. He’s f***ing 20 There’s no time limits on rebuilds. It can be a quick turnaround or it can take a real long time (especially if you f*** up like Edmonton).