Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[MayorofWBS]

Quit crying over spilled milk. It done and over....move on. It's time to move on from this chapter and stop thinking that some weird combination of minor trades were the key to unlocking or ruining the mythical 4th cup win for the Sid/Geno era.

 

[Gurglesons]

The McCann thing was inexcusably bad. Whether or not he would have found the success he has in Seattle here, who knows, but I'm confident that he'd be our best bottom 6 forward right now. And we got 2 games of Hallander and a 7th for him.

Matheson got us Petry and honestly, I'd much rather have Matheson. We paid to get rid of Petry,

The Marino trade I'm torn on but I think what gripes me is that you get Smith and a 3rd for a top 4 guy. A third is nothing and they've sentenced Smith to the AHL for good.

So citing those three, we have NOTHING to show for any of it. It's fine if you want to trade or dump players but you have to get value back or find replacement. Hextall didn't. With that, both Hextall and Dubas with input from Sullivan have built non-competitive rosters. Electing to sign guys like Acciari, Nieto, and Eller instead of guys like Suter, ERod, Kostin, Sprong, Geekie, etc are a big part of the problem. It's a Hextall, Dubas, AND Sullivan problem.

Not really.

All of Matheson, Marino and McCann were moved to get out of their cap situations.

They weren’t giving McCann 5 mil and term.

Matheson and Marino had too much term for what they were providing.

 

[Coastal Kev]

8 playoff games last season with the kraken.
1 goal. ONE.

And???
FYI, last years entire Pens roster had zero playoff goals............ZERO

 

[SEALBound]

Not really.

All of Matheson, Marino and McCann were moved to get out of their cap situations.

They weren’t giving McCann 5 mil and term.

Matheson and Marino had too much term for what they were providing.

Not really.

Petry had ONE less year of term at $6.25 vs $4.85mil.
Marino maybe.
McCann had one more year at $3mil and who knows what he would have got. Seattle gave him $5mil after he potted 27g and 50pts as their top 6 center.

Matheson and Marino were moved because Hextall thought our defense got pushed around too much in the playoffs by the NYR and he wanted big physical crease cleares. A benefit of the Marino trade was getting rid of the term but that wasn't the driver of the trade.

Another thing all of these moves did was put us firmly down the road of what is plaguing us right now - age. Matheson was 28, Marino 25, and McCann 25. We replaced them with Petry, Rutta, and kept Carter all of whom were significantly older.

Dubas doubled down on it by getting Nieto, Acciari, and Smith instead of going after younger available talent.

 

[HandshakeLine]

McCann is an empty calorie scorer. Loved the guy just like Matheson, but we saw him disappoint in the playoffs in three consecutive years.

Matheson is just not a playoff player. He’s literally the dumbest player I’ve ever seen. Super fun to watch, but I have no problem with either of those trades.

It would be nice to see a player disappoint in the playoffs again, tbh.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not really.

Petry had ONE less year of term at $6.25 vs $4.85mil.
Marino maybe.
McCann had one more year at $3mil and who knows what he would have got. Seattle gave him $5mil after he potted 27g and 50pts as their top 6 center.

Matheson and Marino were moved because Hextall thought our defense got pushed around too much in the playoffs by the NYR and he wanted big physical crease cleares. A benefit of the Marino trade was getting rid of the term but that wasn't the driver of the trade.

Another thing all of these moves did was put us firmly down the road of what is plaguing us right now - age. Matheson was 28, Marino 25, and McCann 25. We replaced them with Petry, Rutta, and kept Carter all of whom were significantly older.

Dubas doubled down on it by getting Nieto, Acciari, and Smith instead of going after younger available talent.

Yes they were looking at the cap situation long term. Hextall was always signing and trading for players to blow up the team in two years. He wanted cap flexibility which is why we had 20 mil this summer.

It would be nice to see a player disappoint in the playoffs again, tbh.

McCann would have been the same thing every other bottom six forward is here and Sully would have refused to use him on the top PP. Glad he went somewhere they actually use him appropriately.

 

[chethejet]

Dubas deal for Karlsson was a very good deal. He can be moved for as much or more than what the cost was. So if Jake can bring future and a present asset back and flip Karlsson and Rust after next season, Pens rebuild is not a tank situation. Pens are done this year as to playoffs so Dubas can move on to the next chapter and still ice a decent team while doing so. But the very first thing is sullivan has to go after this year.

 

[SEALBound]

Yes they were looking at the cap situation long term. Hextall was always signing and trading for players to blow up the team in two years. He wanted cap flexibility which is why we had 20 mil this summer.

But cap flexibility doesn't mean shit if you:

1. Have to replace guys like McCann, Tanev, Marino, etc with guys like Eller, Nieto, and Rutta.
2. You aren't getting the good value assets back to make trades for impact players.
3. You have to pay to get rid of the shit value guys you brought in while getting "cap flexibility".

Now that in no way forgives the meager job Dubas did with the signings but Sullivan deserves as much of the blame as the roster was built off a garbage philosophy to begin with. Dubas did a good job building the team that Sullivan wanted. The problem is, the team Sullivan wants is not a playoff team in 2024 given the makeup of the players you had.

 

[Gurglesons]

But cap flexibility doesn't mean shit if you:

1. Have to replace guys like McCann, Tanev, Marino, etc with guys like Eller, Nieto, and Rutta.
2. You aren't getting the good value assets back to make trades for impact players.
3. You have to pay to get rid of the shit value guys you brought in while getting "cap flexibility".

Now that in no way forgives the meager job Dubas did with the signings but Sullivan deserves as much of the blame as the roster was built off a garbage philosophy to begin with. Dubas did a good job building the team that Sullivan wanted. The problem is, the team Sullivan wants is not a playoff team in 2024 given the makeup of the players you had.

Defense was good enough to make the playoffs last year. He replaced McCann and Tanev with Rodrigues and Heinen who were great for us.

We got Poehling and Ty Smith back in both trades. Ty Smith has literally been given no NHL minutes with a healthy roster. Poehling was not signed and picked up by the Flyers and has been a wonderful 3C for them.

Hextall did good work in both of those trades. Losing McCann and Tanev in the ED was the best case scenario.

 

[Turin]

2023 Hextall: I want to rebuild I don’t believe in this core

FSG: no you gotta try *fired*

2024 Dubas: we’re just too old, I’m not going to do anything with the season circling the drain

FSG: hmm you may be right


What the F*** is this org doing? Sell this thing back to Burkle.

 

[SEALBound]

Defense was good enough to make the playoffs last year. He replaced McCann and Tanev with Rodrigues and Heinen who were great for us.

We got Poehling and Ty Smith back in both trades. Ty Smith has literally been given no NHL minutes with a healthy roster. Poehling was not signed and picked up by the Flyers and has been a wonderful 3C for them.

Hextall did good work in both of those trades. Losing McCann and Tanev in the ED was the best case scenario.

Tanev was replaced by McGinn who we had to pay to get rid of.

ERod was already with us and yeah, he was great, yet we refused to resign him because we thought Jeff Carter at 38 was the answer.

The best-case scenario was losing Carter and keeping McCann and Tanev and resigning ERod. At that time, you still could have run:

McCann-ERod-Heinen
ZAR-Bleuger-Tanev

Which would have been a much better bottom 6 than what we were forced to cobble together the last two years.

But thank god those bums are gone so we can have: Nieto, Acciari, Harkins, and Big Jeff Carter, amiright?

 

[Darren McCord]

Not really.

All of Matheson, Marino and McCann were moved to get out of their cap situations.

They weren’t giving McCann 5 mil and term.

Matheson and Marino had too much term for what they were providing.

Ya sure but keep McCann for a year and trade him at the deadline for a first after he pots 30. They kept players sullivan wanted even if they were lower in value overall than McCann with TB and Carter.

A Carter or TB is cheaper and easier to find than a 30 goal regular season scorer.

 

[SEALBound]

2023 Hextall: I want to rebuild I don’t believe in this core

FSG: no you gotta try *fired*

2024 Dubas: we’re just too old, I’m not going to do anything with the season circling the drain

FSG: hmm you may be right


What the F*** is this org doing? Sell this thing back to Burkle.

that's not how it was. Hextall said he wanted to "give them assets to win now while still building for the future." In essence, pay the 2nd to help now; keep the 1st for the future"

The problem is, he completely SUCKED at his job and couldn't do either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

that's not how it was. Hextall said he wanted to "give them assets to win now while still building for the future." In essence, pay the 2nd to help now; keep the 1st for the future"

The problem is, he completely SUCKED at his job and couldn't do either.

Yeah I keep saying this when it comes to Hextall as well. The idea of rebuilding the prospect pool while keeping the team competitive isn't a bad strategy. The issue is he did a terrible job at it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

2023 Hextall: I want to rebuild I don’t believe in this core

FSG: no you gotta try *fired*

2024 Dubas: we’re just too old, I’m not going to do anything with the season circling the drain

FSG: hmm you may be right


What the F*** is this org doing? Sell this thing back to Burkle.

Yeah, I think FSG have no clue and are going to be TERRIBLE owners. Who could have foreseen that a group of venture capitalists with no enthusiasm for the game of hockey would be bad owners?

 

[Gurglesons]

Ya sure but keep McCann for a year and trade him at the deadline for a first after he pots 30. They kept players sullivan wanted even if they were lower in value overall than McCann with TB and Carter.

A Carter or TB is cheaper and easier to find than a 30 goal regular season scorer.

Blueger and Carter looked to be way better fits than McCann.

that's not how it was. Hextall said he wanted to "give them assets to win now while still building for the future." In essence, pay the 2nd to help now; keep the 1st for the future"

The problem is, he completely SUCKED at his job and couldn't do either.

Did way better job than Dubas lol. Dubas is going to lose our highest pick in years while having our worst finish in the Crosby era since 05-06.

 

[Turin]

that's not how it was. Hextall said he wanted to "give them assets to win now while still building for the future." In essence, pay the 2nd to help now; keep the 1st for the future"

The problem is, he completely SUCKED at his job and couldn't do either.

From most accounts it seemed like his preference was to rebuild, his mandate was the same crap this is. I agree rebuilding was a stupid choice in 2022 - but WTF is this then after you bring in Karlsson? There is zero excuse for this coaching staff to have been given another full season to fail.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah, if we rank Hextall as a failure, how on earth are people saying Dubas' season was better?

 

[Gurglesons]

Tanev was replaced by McGinn who we had to pay to get rid of.

ERod was already with us and yeah, he was great, yet we refused to resign him because we thought Jeff Carter at 38 was the answer.

The best-case scenario was losing Carter and keeping McCann and Tanev and resigning ERod. At that time, you still could have run:

McCann-ERod-Heinen
ZAR-Bleuger-Tanev

Which would have been a much better bottom 6 than what we were forced to cobble together the last two years.

But thank god those bums are gone so we can have: Nieto, Acciari, Harkins, and Big Jeff Carter, amiright?

Jeff Carter wasn’t traded because he was great for us cost 2 mil and we knew Sid potentially and Malkin were missing the start of the season. Carter was great for us the year after. McGinn scored as many playoff goals for Tanev for 1+ mil less.

Hextall re-signed Rodrigues.

 

[Andy99]

From most accounts it seemed like his preference was to rebuild, his mandate was the same crap this is. I agree rebuilding was a stupid choice in 2022 - but WTF is this then after you bring in Karlsson? There is zero excuse for this coaching staff to have been given another full season to fail.

Iron clad contract for Sullivan…didn’t anyone hear Dubas at the presser? Sullivan’s gonna be around for the next three years ruining all our prospects…I love how people on here are projecting his firing at the season’s end lol

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, if we rank Hextall as a failure, how on earth are people saying Dubas' season was better?

Because Hextall is the reason everything was so bad for Dubas! It’s all Hextall’s fault don’t you understand!

 

[Andy99]

Yeah, if we rank Hextall as a failure, how on earth are people saying Dubas' season was better?

It wasn’t…I think people are willing to give him another year because he came in late in the offseason and Sullivan has been here 8 years, so he probably was going defer a lot to him anyway…I’m willing to wait and see what he does at the deadline and this summer…

 

[HandshakeLine]

I just want people to show me the math as to how missing the playoffs by one game at the very end of the season is worse than being definitively eliminated from the playoffs before the trade deadline.

 

[SEALBound]

Because Hextall is the reason everything was so bad for Dubas! It’s all Hextall’s fault don’t you understand!

If you can't see how Hextall's mismanagement of the roster did not in some ways contribute to the current situation, then I have no idea what to tell other than "seek help".

If things were going so well for Hextall and we were on the right path, why was he fired?

Dubas has been here 1/2 a season. Hextall was here three. The majority of Dubas's work has been cleaning up Hextall's mess. And that's coming from someone who doesn't think Dubas has done all that great of a job. I can just recognize what a disaster the Hextall era was (both for the present and future of the team).

I just want people to show me the math as to how missing the playoffs by one game at the very end of the season is worse than being definitively eliminated from the playoffs before the trade deadline.

How many zero's are in "Head Coach Mike Sullivan"?

 

[HandshakeLine]

How many zero's are in "Head Coach Mike Sullivan"?

Probably as many as grains of sand on the beaches, my friend.

Don't get me wrong, Hextall was not good by any means. But Dubas could, if he wanted to, have fired Sullivan months ago.