Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[ChaosAgent]

Florida is going to sign Reinhart for like 7.5 x 6 without question.

Isn't he a complete bargain at that price? Feels like he could command $10m+

 

[66-30-33]

This team can't hurt me much more anyways.

Thoughts on Lindholm?

Doesn't matter who we bring in, Sully will coach the life out of them and they will fail here. Either get a new coach or rebuild, we can't compete with this guy so why force it?

 

[Ulf5]

Isn't he a complete bargain at that price? Feels like he could command $10m+

His production in FLA. is certainly right up there with Huberdeau's. More goals, less assists with a rising cap. Some GM will get all giggity.

 

[canadianguy77]

Doesn't matter who we bring in, Sully will coach the life out of them and they will fail here. Either get a new coach or rebuild, we can't compete with this guy so why force it?

Pittsburgh is a highly sought after hockey destination. Where else can you learn the strategies and tactics of mid-90s professional hockey in such engrossing depth and detail? We even have an anti-euro and anti-rookie coach to go along with it all, so you know it’s all authentic.

 

[Andy99]

Pittsburgh is a highly sought after hockey destination. Where else can you learn the strategies and tactics of mid-90s professional hockey in such engrossing depth and detail? We even have an anti-euro and anti-rookie coach to go along with it all, so you know it’s all authentic.

“This is a place where you can really tank your game and play 8 minutes a night of defensive hockey. Where else can your salary per-minute of play be so high? You’ll never get an opportunity like this again” — Dubas’ pitch to free agents..

 

[Gurglesons]

Isn't he a complete bargain at that price? Feels like he could command $10m+

Yes. But they just signed Forsling for 5.75 and he's a top ten LHD.

Not to mention, they can sell a rich guy living in Florida versus us selling a rich guy "restaurants that ChaosAgent thinks are good".

His production in FLA. is certainly right up there with Huberdeau's. More goals, less assists with a rising cap. Some GM will get all giggity.

I'd be shocked if FLA let's go of Reinhart.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Someone I'd like to take a run at in free agency is Sam Reinhart. Guaranteed to score 30+ goals a year.

We would be paying a lot for him but he's that high end winger / C we need.

We have cap space to go make that move, especially since it would allow us to ship out Smith or Rakell. I've been saying for a while that cap space needs to be weaponized into a Jake like impact winger. Reinhart would fit the bill. Lindholm to C and Malkin to LW is an option too.

 

[Darren McCord]

Florida is going to sign Reinhart for like 7.5 x 6 without question.

No they arent lol

He is going to get at least 9-9.5

He is their leading scoring and outscoring Barkov by 13 pts.

 

[DesertPenguin]

No they arent lol

He is going to get at least 9-9.5

He is their leading scoring and outscoring Barkov by 13 pts.

I think we have 10M available for this if Smith goes out without retention and we don't break the bank on a d-man. 3M left over for a D once all the depth roles are filled.

 

[Gurglesons]

No they arent lol

He is going to get at least 9-9.5

He is their leading scoring and outscoring Barkov by 13 pts.

Forsling just got 5.75. He’s their top defenseman and one of the best in the league.

Florida’s getting those Tampa discounts.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Pittsburgh wasn't a choice FA destination when Crosby and Malkin were in their primes.

Now that they're in the twilight of their careers, why would FAs prioritize Pittsburgh?

Whether taxes, climate, quality of the core, age of the core, quality of the pipeline, recent success, open roster spots, coaching staff, reputation, there are a lot of variables. Obviously individual players will make value decisions on the individual level. But in general, this team doesn't have a whole lot going for it to attract free agent talent.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Had close to 100 games before the Pens but whatever.

Had Sully coaching, neutering him for those games....

 

[Ulf5]

Had Sully coaching, neutering him for those games....

100 NHL games BEFORE Sully :smh:

No they arent lol

He is going to get at least 9-9.5

He is their leading scoring and outscoring Barkov by 13 pts.

48 goals, point per game player since leaving the cesspool that Buffalo was. GMs gonna go gaga. No state taxes doesn't add up to that much of a difference.

 

[Gurglesons]

48 goals, point per game player since leaving the cesspool that Buffalo was. GMs gonna go gaga. No state taxes doesn't add up to that much of a difference.

We shall see. Tkachuk signed for 9.5 at 25 after putting up 100 pts.

 

[Ulf5]

We shall see. Tkachuk signed for 9.5 at 25 after putting up 100 pts.

I'd definitely rather have Tkachuk. But the cap rising a little each of the next few years will see a return of GMs to their foolish, overspending ways imo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Pittsburgh is a highly sought after hockey destination. Where else can you learn the strategies and tactics of mid-90s professional hockey in such engrossing depth and detail? We even have an anti-euro and anti-rookie coach to go along with it all, so you know it’s all authentic.

This should be the sales pitch to any kid who came up through NCAA or is from the Northeast USA.

"Come to Pittsburgh where you can suck for 40 games and still play ahead of that stinking Euro"

Forsling just got 5.75. He’s their top defenseman and one of the best in the league.

Florida’s getting those Tampa discounts.

Forsling isn't a comparable because defensemen like him always get lower than they're probably worth due to the lack of offensive stats.

It's why a guy like Jaccob Slavin only makes $5.3 million per year despite being arguably the best defensive defenseman in the league.

 

[BusinessGoose]

NMCs, contact lengths of 6+ years, payouts at 30% over market, and zero expectations

Some players' paradise

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd definitely rather have Tkachuk. But the cap rising a little each of the next few years will see a return of GMs to their foolish, overspending ways imo.

I think if Reinhart goes to UFA he is easily getting 9-10 mil.

My point is if he re-signs in Florida. I guarantee he’ll take a huge discount.

 

[SEALBound]

I expect Smith to be traded once the new cap takes over. I also wonder if Dubas tried to make a trade involving Rakell. It could accomplish one of two things: 1. Brings in a different player in an attempt to spark different chemistry ala Perron for Hagelin. 2. Let him go for cheap to gain space so that you can go to a cap-strapped team and get a good, skilled player.

Then you could also afford to bring Jake back.

Jake-Sid-Rust (Hey, it works...)
Bunting-Geno-Trade/FA
DOC-Pono-XXXX
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi

An example that I've used in the past is Huberdeau for Rakell+Graves. Something like that. The infusion of the Poulin, Puljujarvi, Pono, Koivunen/Yager/etc opens the cap space door for us to swing big on a trade/FA.

 

[Freeptop]

Guentzel's the only guy who's legitimately elite. Rust's numbers wouldn't be anywhere close to what they are if he wasn't used by Sullivan as the #1 winger on the team. He'd fall into that 40-50 point range on any other team, largely because he wouldn't be the top option all the time.

Yeah, Guentzel was the only elite winger, but that wasn't the claim?

As for Rust - I'm not sure why he gets trashed as much as he does around here. Once upon a time, he's exactly the kind of player we clamored for - a former third round pick developed entirely by the Pens who improved over time into becoming a regular 20-30 goal scorer while still being defensively responsible? We would have killed for a Rust on the wing for most of the between-Cups Shero years!

He's not elite, but he's still a good player. Plus, as was originally pointed out - Crosby and Malkin don't add 10 points to their wings anymore, so why is Rust a magic exception there? It certainly isn't due to the power play, since everyone has been terrible there this year, and if it was just due to getting to play with Crosby and Malkin, one would think that Smith or Rakell (or Zucker before them) would have gotten such a boost.

I'm not sure where you're getting Smith's numbers from. He's hit 60 points exactly ONE time in his career, so I'm not sure how he's usually at 60 points or more. Not to mention, the most recent seasons (past 4 seasons) are more indicative of the type of player a player is NOW and Smith's got 152 points in 249 games, or a exactly at a 50 point pace (which is what I said - 40 to 50 point winger).

I said around a 60 point pace.
Here are the last five seasons before this one:
53 points in 74 games = 0.72 pts/g -> 58 point pace
54 points in 71 games = 0.76 pts/g -> 62 point pace
25 points in 53 games = 0.47 pts/g -> 38 point pace (okay, this one was terrible)
38 points in 56 games = 0.68 pts/g -> 56 point pace
56 points in 78 games = 0.72 pts/g -> 59 point pace

58, 62, 56, 59 are all values that are "around" a 60 point pace, and rather closer to 60 than 50. The one bad season in there drove down the average, but his median pace over those five seasons was 58 points. That's not a 40-50 point player.

Rakell's similar. He had a great year last year with the Pens, but before that he hasn't been close to a 50-60 point winger since 2017-18 (which ironically is the last time this team was relevant).

With Rakell, most of his career was around 50-60 points, but your point about looking at the last few years is apt, so let's look at the same five seasons:
42/65 = 0.65 pts/g -> 53 point pace
28/52 = 0.54 pts/g -> 44 point pace
28/51 = 0.55 pts/g -> 45 point pace
13/19 = 0.68 pts/g -> 56 point pace
60/82 -> 60 point pace by definition

So, three out of the past five seasons he was a 50-60 point player, but the other two he was not, putting his median at 53 points, but still, I'll cop to that one. He's closer to being a 40-50 point player these days than a 50-60 point one, even if he was closer to a 60 point player earlier in his career.

Also, if you look at the discussion it's about going into NEXT year. Including Guentzel skews my point since the discussion was about going into next year with Bunting, Rust, Rakell and Smith as our top six.

Well, that's silly. We don't know that they will be our top six next year. This season hasn't even finished yet. The team just sold at the deadline. Saying that the team is expecting Sid and Geno to carry 40-50 point wingers based on Bunting, Rust, Rakell and Smith being the wingers right now would be like judging the Pens' roster for this season based on still having Granlund and Petry last March.

For that matter, saying the team is expecting them to carry 40-50 point wingers implies they expect to compete next year. Let's just say that if they don't change out at least some of the wings before next season starts, I won't be convinced they're actually trying to win...

----

Honestly, if Crosby takes a step back next year like Malkin has this year, it's going to be hilarious how bad our offense is. People insisting that our wingers are fine or that they're not just 40-50 point wingers are going to be in for a nasty shock when they don't have Sid or Geno to carry the load.

I didn't say the wingers are fine. I also don't think the team will be all that good next season. I'm just saying that the roster construction we've seen under Dubas seems to indicate that he's not expecting Crosby or Malkin to carry 40-50 point wingers these days. That's literally the only thing I was claiming.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yeah, Guentzel was the only elite winger, but that wasn't the claim?

As for Rust - I'm not sure why he gets trashed as much as he does around here. Once upon a time, he's exactly the kind of player we clamored for - a former third round pick developed entirely by the Pens who improved over time into becoming a regular 20-30 goal scorer while still being defensively responsible? We would have killed for a Rust on the wing for most of the between-Cups Shero years!

He's not elite, but he's still a good player. Plus, as was originally pointed out - Crosby and Malkin don't add 10 points to their wings anymore, so why is Rust a magic exception there? It certainly isn't due to the power play, since everyone has been terrible there this year, and if it was just due to getting to play with Crosby and Malkin, one would think that Smith or Rakell (or Zucker before them) would have gotten such a boost.



I said around a 60 point pace.
Here are the last five seasons before this one:
53 points in 74 games = 0.72 pts/g -> 58 point pace
54 points in 71 games = 0.76 pts/g -> 62 point pace
25 points in 53 games = 0.47 pts/g -> 38 point pace (okay, this one was terrible)
38 points in 56 games = 0.68 pts/g -> 56 point pace
56 points in 78 games = 0.72 pts/g -> 59 point pace

58, 62, 56, 59 are all values that are "around" a 60 point pace, and rather closer to 60 than 50. The one bad season in there drove down the average, but his median pace over those five seasons was 58 points. That's not a 40-50 point player.



With Rakell, most of his career was around 50-60 points, but your point about looking at the last few years is apt, so let's look at the same five seasons:
42/65 = 0.65 pts/g -> 53 point pace
28/52 = 0.54 pts/g -> 44 point pace
28/51 = 0.55 pts/g -> 45 point pace
13/19 = 0.68 pts/g -> 56 point pace
60/82 -> 60 point pace by definition

So, three out of the past five seasons he was a 50-60 point player, but the other two he was not, putting his median at 53 points, but still, I'll cop to that one. He's closer to being a 40-50 point player these days than a 50-60 point one, even if he was closer to a 60 point player earlier in his career.



Well, that's silly. We don't know that they will be our top six next year. This season hasn't even finished yet. The team just sold at the deadline. Saying that the team is expecting Sid and Geno to carry 40-50 point wingers based on Bunting, Rust, Rakell and Smith being the wingers right now would be like judging the Pens' roster for this season based on still having Granlund and Petry last March.

For that matter, saying the team is expecting them to carry 40-50 point wingers implies they expect to compete next year. Let's just say that if they don't change out at least some of the wings before next season starts, I won't be convinced they're actually trying to win...



I didn't say the wingers are fine. I also don't think the team will be all that good next season. I'm just saying that the roster construction we've seen under Dubas seems to indicate that he's not expecting Crosby or Malkin to carry 40-50 point wingers these days. That's literally the only thing I was claiming.

This seems more like haggling over semantics rather than seeing the bigger point I was making. You're stuck on "40-50 point player" and ignoring the bigger point that at this stage of their careers, Sid and Geno need actual elite or at least higher end wingers, not just players who'll score in the 50 point range.

The point is while teams like Colorado, Edmonton, Toronto, Boston, Florida, and the like have the Rantanens, Draisaitls, Marners/Nylanders, Pastrnaks, and Reinharts/Tkachuks of the world, we're going into next season with Bryan friggin' Rust as our best winger. That shit needs to stop if this team actually wants to be a playoff team, because Crosby/Malkin can't carry the offense anymore to compensate for sub-par (compared to the good teams) wingers surrounding their centers.

Argue all you want about whether Smith, Rakell and Rust are 50-60 point wingers instead of 40-50 point wingers, the bottom line is they're vastly inferior to pretty much every good playoff team's top six wingers. And the days of Sid/Geno being able to compensate for that gap are gone.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Yeah they aren't gonna get any 90pt wingers

I think i could bet the farm on that

This shit is what it is and will be until we really bottom 3 in they league for 3 years

There's no way even with our bit of extra money, we are getting any FA signings besides middling guys

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I expect Smith to be traded once the new cap takes over. I also wonder if Dubas tried to make a trade involving Rakell.

I certainly hope both of these things happen. Smith has to go, and so does one of Rakell or Rust. I'm not picky. Two of the three need to go. This top six is playing below the sum of its parts. They're all fine players individually, but they're not working out together, or here in general.

 

[Andy99]

Saw this in the PG article about Ned today…lol…for those defending Jarry:

“His rate of goals saved above expected ranks 19th among NHL goalies, per Sportlogiq. That is a bit better than Jarry, who was 30th in the league entering Thursday.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/03/21/alex-nedeljkovic-pittsburgh-penguins-goalies-tristan-jarry/stories/202403200117

Jake was driving play here, regardless of what some fans think…I could see Dubas wanting to trade for Marner as a replacement lol

 

[SEALBound]

Latest Pens Buzz: Sullivan Coaching Chatter; Penguins gauged market for Marcus Pettersson to get ‘Value’ feeling before summer extension decision & More Buzz - Inside Pittsburgh Sports

PENGUINS DWINDLING PLAYOFF HOPES It was fun for a couple days while it lasted that just maybe the Penguins could put a string of games together and remain relevant in the playoff race for another week or so. Pittsburgh's slim playoff hopes, though, took a sizeable nosedive with the upcoming...

insidepittsburghsports.com

Interesting tidbits in here regarding Sullivan - does he WANT to be the head coach next year or does he fancy moving on to a larger role, whether with us or another team (NJ mentioned). I suggested this in the off-season that if you are bound by the contract but don't want him to be the head coach, promote him up to AGM or a VPOHO. Anything that gets him gone is good.

Does anyone have an account that can add more detail?

I certainly hope both of these things happen. Smith has to go, and so does one of Rakell or Rust. I'm not picky. Two of the three need to go. This top six is playing below the sum of its parts. They're all fine players individually, but they're not working out together, or here in general.

They should be doing a full analysis of "what do each of Sid and Malkin need?" and then seek out the best options available. I wouldn't beholden to Smith or Rakell but I think they will keep Rust around. He's still decent and still Sid's buddy so I can't see them moving him out.