Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[orby]

Bunting is a legitimately good player - as was Chris Kunitz, who is probably a decent comparable - but he's not going to move the needle because Sid no longer able to elevate linemates from good to great with his play. This team needs to be great on offense to have any shot of overcoming mediocre goaltending and defense. The Pens have a ton of good complementary pieces throughout the lineup like Rakell, Smith, Bunting, Eller...but they're still relying on Crosby and Malkin to be game breakers and that's just not a winning philosophy as they enter their late thirties. They need two Guentzel caliber players to elevate those lines, and frankly, I think one of them needs to be a center, because I have no confidence that Malkin is going to be a viable 2C next season.

Is getting both a really good top 6 winger and a really good 2C over the summer viable? If not, I don't think they have any chance of being a contender next season. They might make the playoffs - hell, they probably would have made the playoffs this year if not for Sullivan - but I don't see them icing a roster that could make a real cup run.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

Lol, I can't imagine the shame of watching my grandma try to publicly defend me in my late 30s.

Real grandmas complain about how much of a disappointment you are, like mine did.

 

[eXile3]

Bunting is a legitimately good player - as was Chris Kunitz, who is probably a decent comparable - but he's not going to move the needle because Sid no longer able to elevate linemates from good to great with his play. This team needs to be great on offense to have any shot of overcoming mediocre goaltending and defense. The Pens have a ton of good complementary pieces throughout the lineup like Rakell, Smith, Bunting, Eller...but they're still relying on Crosby and Malkin to be game breakers and that's just not a winning philosophy as they enter their late thirties. They need two Guentzel caliber players to elevate those lines, and frankly, I think one of them needs to be a center, because I have no confidence that Malkin is going to be a viable 2C next season.

Is getting both a really good top 6 winger and a really good 2C over the summer viable? If not, I don't think they have any chance of being a contender next season. They might make the playoffs - hell, they probably would have made the playoffs this year if not for Sullivan - but I don't see them icing a roster that could make a real cup run.

That’s funny because as I watching Bunting play I was thinking he reminds me of Chris Kunitz if he was devoid of any talent.

I mean he has the hustle but his skating and passing are no where near Kunitz. Kunitz was a much better player than Bunting.

 

[orby]

That’s funny because as I watching Bunting play I was thinking he reminds me of Chris Kunitz if he was devoid of any talent.

I mean he has the hustle but his skating and passing are no where near Kunitz. Kunitz was a much better player than Bunting.

You'll get no argument from me on that. Kunitz was a better player in his prime than Bunting is.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bunting is a legitimately good player - as was Chris Kunitz, who is probably a decent comparable - but he's not going to move the needle because Sid no longer able to elevate linemates from good to great with his play. This team needs to be great on offense to have any shot of overcoming mediocre goaltending and defense. The Pens have a ton of good complementary pieces throughout the lineup like Rakell, Smith, Bunting, Eller...but they're still relying on Crosby and Malkin to be game breakers and that's just not a winning philosophy as they enter their late thirties. They need two Guentzel caliber players to elevate those lines, and frankly, I think one of them needs to be a center, because I have no confidence that Malkin is going to be a viable 2C next season.

Is getting both a really good top 6 winger and a really good 2C over the summer viable? If not, I don't think they have any chance of being a contender next season. They might make the playoffs - hell, they probably would have made the playoffs this year if not for Sullivan - but I don't see them icing a roster that could make a real cup run.

Depends on what you mean by "really good".

For example. JVR was a great add for Boston and is probably something we could've used last summer at a million.

Dylan Strome was a player that Washington got cheap and is now their leading score on their path to a playoff run.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I feel like we could've got a much better player if we took an asset based package and tried to flip it.

Bunting is fine if we get rid of Smith, Rust or Rakell.

My biggest fear is that Dubas thinks this top six can get it done.

I've said it for years that this team settles for mediocre top six wingers because they're still envisioning Sid and Geno in their primes being able to score 100+ points playing next to 40 point wingers.

They still don't seem to understand that at their respective ages, Sid and Geno can no longer carry a line if their wingers are a bunch of 40-50 point middle six wingers.

So yeah, if the Pens go into next season thinking a top six of Bunting, Rakell, Rust and Smith is good enough to be a playoff team, we'll be having this same sort of discussion next year as well.

You'll get no argument from me on that. Kunitz was a better player in his prime than Bunting is.

I don't like the Kunitz comparison because in his prime Kunitz was a heat seeking missile. Bunting doesn't hit nearly as much (or as effectively) as Kunitz.

Bunting's more of an agitator who yaps a lot and gets his nose dirty around the net. He's probably closer to Hornqvist than Kunitz.

 

[SEALBound]

I've said it for years that this team settles for mediocre top six wingers because they're still envisioning Sid and Geno in their primes being able to score 100+ points playing next to 40 point wingers.

They still don't seem to understand that at their respective ages, Sid and Geno can no longer carry a line if their wingers are a bunch of 40-50 point middle six wingers.

So yeah, if the Pens go into next season thinking a top six of Bunting, Rakell, Rust and Smith is good enough to be a playoff team, we'll be having this same sort of discussion next year as well.


I don't like the Kunitz comparison because in his prime Kunitz was a heat seeking missile. Bunting doesn't hit nearly as much (or as effectively) as Kunitz.

Bunting's more of an agitator who yaps a lot and gets his nose dirty around the net. He's probably closer to Hornqvist than Kunitz.

It's hard to find top 6 wings though. Honestly, this year:

Jake - Rust
Smith - Rakell

May be the most complete set of top 6 wings we've ever had in the Sid/Geno era. Realistically speaking, I don't think the issue is the top 6 wings. I would place MUCH more burden on the bottom 6 wings. Scoring for the top 6 wasn't an issue. Our issues were two-fold:
1. The bottom 6 was constructed as a defensive only unit and neither line played good enough defense to make up for the complete lack of goal scoring.
2. The defensive system we employ is not well suited for our defensive players, and we don't have a world-beating goalie to overcome it.

Now, obviously, this falls on coaching much more than anything but if we are looking to retool the roster next year for top 6 wings, I'm not entirely sure who you go out and get (sans Jake returning). Unless we are willing to take high-risk deals like Huberdeau, I'm not sure who they can even bring in.

 

[HandshakeLine]

If you can’t get players to play your system, you change your system.

This is not some huge mystery anywhere else, except here.

 

[Ryder71]

Bunting is a legitimately good player -

He is, solid pick up by Dubas in that haul of a trade.

 

[Pens1566]

If you can’t get players to play your system, you change your system.

This is not some huge mystery anywhere else, except here.

It's one of the main hallmarks of a "good coach".

In addition to team stick-to-it-iveness and getting to your game, that is.

 

[molon labe]

Bunting is a legitimately good player - as was Chris Kunitz, who is probably a decent comparable - but he's not going to move the needle because Sid no longer able to elevate linemates from good to great with his play. This team needs to be great on offense to have any shot of overcoming mediocre goaltending and defense. The Pens have a ton of good complementary pieces throughout the lineup like Rakell, Smith, Bunting, Eller...but they're still relying on Crosby and Malkin to be game breakers and that's just not a winning philosophy as they enter their late thirties. They need two Guentzel caliber players to elevate those lines, and frankly, I think one of them needs to be a center, because I have no confidence that Malkin is going to be a viable 2C next season.

Is getting both a really good top 6 winger and a really good 2C over the summer viable? If not, I don't think they have any chance of being a contender next season. They might make the playoffs - hell, they probably would have made the playoffs this year if not for Sullivan - but I don't see them icing a roster that could make a real cup run.

There are ALWAYS guys available - every.single.season - if you're either willing and/or able (salary cap).

This Summer will be no different. Loads and loads of teams will watch this utterly 'mid' playoffs unfold and want to shake up their rosters knowing they could have gotten in / done damage.

The glaring elephant in the room is going to be Calgary with Kadri/Huberdeau. I think both could be available in a straight up swap. Is that who we want though? I mean, I'd LOVE Kadri here as our 2C and have advocated as such. Huberdeau would be a tough pill to swallow if he's unable to mesh with Sid/Geno though. But that might be what it takes to get them talking (with the pieces we have).

Ottawa? Would they be interested in a shakeup considering they've been a metric-f-ton of a letdown the past two seasons?

It starts with the system and the coach. He should have been fired already and the work should be starting for a new-look Penguins next year.

But you're absolutely 100 percent spot on with the reliance on Sid/Geno. Outright unacceptable for Geno and genuinely puzzling for Sid (that you did not at least have bench-strength to step in when he has slumps). Like, Geno went from a nearly 10M player to a 6M player and the org thought, hell, here's a guy in his LATE 30s who will just carry on with the hot garbage we feed him??

- 2C
- Top 6 threat.

Unsurprisingly - a need we've had for SEVERAL seasons now that have been met with Eller/Granlund/Smith and a whole bunch of other top-6 nonfactors that GM Sullivan saw something in.

 

[SEALBound]

It's one of the main hallmarks of a "good coach".

In addition to team stick-to-it-iveness and getting to your game, that is.

It worked 7-8 years ago. Twice. Ignore 7 years of recent failure though.

 

[molon labe]

If you can’t get players to play your system, you change your system.

This is not some huge mystery anywhere else, except here.

Those damn egotistical players won't skate faster or block every shot that their goalie depends on post-allstar break because he's a 1B. Who woulda thought.

I seriously looked at Eller and Smith and thought - man, Ian Cole's shot blocking prowess will be challenged this year with these additions. Acciari? Who needs depth scoring when you have that HEAVY (Getzoff) forecheck. Graves? Finally the anchor EK / Letang are going to need. This system is proven. You just have to trust the process. You see, once we miss 2-3 years in a row, 40 year olds Sid/Geno will once again take hold of crappy linemates and lead the art ross race for a playoff push while the other 10 forwards grind and forecheck.

It worked 7-8 years ago. Twice. Ignore 7 years of recent failure though.

It's funny how the organization is straight up ignorant to how hockey has changed since then.

You all remember how, leading into the 2016 playoffs - the Sharks were considered a fast team? The Pens system took what Chicago did and made it better before anyone else caught on.

Hell - half the analysts still talked (go watch those games) about how the Pens were not physical enough to win. That was hockey then. (Frankly might work again now)....

Since then - everyone skates fast and we've gotten older. But Sullivan insists that having less scoring in the lineup, so long as we can sit 10th on a PK is a recipe to repeat the former glory. Unbelievable.

 

[SEALBound]

It's funny how the organization is straight up ignorant to how hockey has changed since then.

You all remember how, leading into the 2016 playoffs - the Sharks were considered a fast team? The Pens system took what Chicago did and made it better before anyone else caught on.

Hell - half the analysts still talked (go watch those games) about how the Pens were not physical enough to win. That was hockey then. (Frankly might work again now)....

Since then - everyone skates fast and we've gotten older. But Sullivan insists that having less scoring in the lineup, so long as we can sit 10th on a PK is a recipe to repeat the former glory. Unbelievable.

Yeah, I just cannot for the life of me understand the "two scoring lines, two defensive lines" structure when it hasn't worked for this team in literally a decade. There were two-three where we deviated from that and we won two cups doing it.

You look at other Cup winners, they all had scoring throughout the line up. No one has done the "two defensive lines" bottom 6 and won.

If they wanted to start the season with:

Jake-Sid-Rust
DOC-Malkin-Puustinen
Smith-Eller-Rakalle
Harkins-Accairi-Carter

I would have at least understood that though I still would have had issues since Eller has NEVER been an offensive center and I think Geno needs more help than DOC and Puustinen.

A reason why I am so adamant about adding another scoring center to the prospect group is because it is something we severely lack, and it's extremely hard to find. You can find wings, you can find dmen, you can occasionally find goalies. But scoring centers? Tough.

I think the sooner we can shift Malkin to wing, the better honestly.

Bunting-Sid-Malkin
Rakell-Yager-Rust
DOC-Pono-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Nieto

Something like that would be nice to see.

Dubas showed us that he is willing to come in a shake up a roster. He needs to do the same this year. Nieto and Acciari have to be sent out. They need that cap space and the lineups. They need to push Eller to 4C and build a scoring 3rd line. More importantly, they need a new coach that can create a system around who is in place.

 

[vikingGoalie]

i dunno, i loved the EK trade over the summer. on paper most of the moves Dubas made looked good. until sully happened that is...

that said, I don't like EK's body language out there. am I reading to much into that? maybe. but he looks like he is quite content being on a loser team right now. Crosby on the other hand is diving for pucks and doing what his 36 year old self can.

so for me, the main d-guy i want gone is graves but that will be hard with that contract. but EK could command a L2 center in return, or a top 6 winger. EK did not solve our PP issues and if anything it was just another CHEF in the kitchen. we don't need this many cooks on the PP, someone needs to just run it and not defer so damn much.

Jarry never been a fan, his numbers always tail off this time of year, ALWAYS. He never plays big when it really matters. Has he been the cause of our demise this year? No, but he is not exactly helping us either. If there is any kind of decent market for him, ship him out, sign Ned and let Blom come up or get another goalie to platoon in. EK+Jarry off the books is over 15M in cap space to work with right there.
Get Smith out of here because he looks like a huge nothing burger out there and we have 20M in space plus whatever it's going up by.

All i'm saying is if find the partner to dance with we can do some significant re-tooling this summer.

 

[Pancakes]

Something like that would be nice to see.

Dubas showed us that he is willing to come in a shake up a roster. He needs to do the same this year. Nieto and Acciari have to be sent out. They need that cap space and the lineups. They need to push Eller to 4C and build a scoring 3rd line. More importantly, they need a new coach that can create a system around who is in place.

I'm highly skeptical that any roster changes will matter if Sullivan is still behind the bench next year.

Maybe if they change the players enough his message will start to resonate again though lol.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yeah, I just cannot for the life of me understand the "two scoring lines, two defensive lines" structure when it hasn't worked for this team in literally a decade. There were two-three where we deviated from that and we won two cups doing it.

You look at other Cup winners, they all had scoring throughout the line up. No one has done the "two defensive lines" bottom 6 and won.

If they wanted to start the season with:

Jake-Sid-Rust
DOC-Malkin-Puustinen
Smith-Eller-Rakalle
Harkins-Accairi-Carter

I would have at least understood that though I still would have had issues since Eller has NEVER been an offensive center and I think Geno needs more help than DOC and Puustinen.

A reason why I am so adamant about adding another scoring center to the prospect group is because it is something we severely lack, and it's extremely hard to find. You can find wings, you can find dmen, you can occasionally find goalies. But scoring centers? Tough.

I think the sooner we can shift Malkin to wing, the better honestly.

Bunting-Sid-Malkin
Rakell-Yager-Rust
DOC-Pono-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Nieto

Something like that would be nice to see.

Dubas showed us that he is willing to come in a shake up a roster. He needs to do the same this year. Nieto and Acciari have to be sent out. They need that cap space and the lineups. They need to push Eller to 4C and build a scoring 3rd line. More importantly, they need a new coach that can create a system around who is in place.

I'd argue the "two scoring, two defensive ONLY lines" thing hasn't ever worked.

If Sullivan is trying to recreate the 2009 Cup with Staal at 3C, he's missing a key element to what made that such a good third line. IT COULD SCORE AS WELL.

That line featured a guy who was a lock for 20+ goals and almost 50 points, a guy who was in the 15-20 goal range most years, and a guy who could score 13-15 goals most years. That's what made the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line so effective. It was good defensively but it was also a really good scoring line for a bottom six. Hell, that line's production is similar to what our SECOND line is like this year.

Sullivan insisting on his bottom six getting ridiculous defensive minutes and being full of defense ONLY types is killing this club. The best constructed teams also get offense from their bottom six, not this Sullivan nonsense of "their job is to play the opposition to a 0-0 draw every night".

 

[SEALBound]

I'm highly skeptical that any roster changes will matter if Sullivan is still behind the bench next year.

Maybe if they change the players enough his message will start to resonate again though lol.

I think any discussion about making the team "better" next year comes with the universal * of "But it won't matter if they don't fire Sullivan"

I'd argue the "two scoring, two defensive ONLY lines" thing hasn't ever worked.

If Sullivan is trying to recreate the 2009 Cup with Staal at 3C, he's missing a key element to what made that such a good third line. IT COULD SCORE AS WELL.

That line featured a guy who was a lock for 20+ goals and almost 50 points, a guy who was in the 15-20 goal range most years, and a guy who could score 13-15 goals most years. That's what made the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line so effective. It was good defensively but it was also a really good scoring line for a bottom six. Hell, that line's production is similar to what our SECOND line is like this year.

Sullivan insisting on his bottom six getting ridiculous defensive minutes and being full of defense ONLY types is killing this club. The best constructed teams also get offense from their bottom six, not this Sullivan nonsense of "their job is to play the opposition to a 0-0 draw every night".

CSK was about as perfectly constructed 3rd line as it gets, unless you want to consider HBK a "third" line.

Staal potted 50pts that year, Cooke 31, and Kennedy 35 (in 64gp). They each did 9pts in the playoffs which is fine as well. The other thing to consider is that you had prime time Sid and Geno carrying the load offensively. So yeah, if you have two generational talents on L1 and L2, you can afford to have a pivot line like CSK and then a 4th line of misfits. But even then, you had a 4th line of Dupuis-Adams-Satan/Sykora which is nothing to shake a stick at.

Like I said, if they were putting Smith-Eller-Rakell out there as a third line, I'd see the logic in it - you have a good two line that can act as a pivot line. As constructed, the roster has nothing like that. We are close to the 2014/2015 roster construction where the goal of the bottom 6 was "give Sid and Geno a rest and don't get scored on". Not shocking, they were 1st and 2nd round exits to the NYR because of a severe lack of scoring.

And I do think there were centers available in FA that could have helped us build that third scoring line - Morgan Geekie of which, tops that list.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'd argue the "two scoring, two defensive ONLY lines" thing hasn't ever worked.

Only in 2020-21, when they won the division. And that's because we had a bunch of players play above their career averages at the same time.
We also had a bunch of guys do more than their roles should have allowed them to do. It was an unsustainable formula, especially because when guys play well like that, they price themselves out.

 

[chethejet]

Lots of wildcards here. Is Geno done? He can't play center and not sure he can play LW but he can't be moved and maybe his loss of speed can be offset with playing a less demanding position. Smith traded at the draft? Dubas after trading Smith will have 17 million or less if he retains a million on Smith. Blomqvist is back up next year in goal. D of the younger RD can be the third RD can play with Ludvig. Rust back due to NMC. Rakell, Puusitinen and then a 4th RW. Bunting. DOC, FA LW with Poulin, and Eller at 3rd line center.
Bunting Sid Rakell
Geno Eller Rust
DOC ? Puustinen
FA Poulin Acciari
Have a couple options here if Smith is moved for a second. This is not the best way to go but I am thinking Dubas changes the staff but doesn't eat 15 million on Sully. Center from the Canes, Ponomarev can be 3rd line center and RW from the Blue Jackets Norqvist at 4th line RW. But no question after next year Dubas has to purge the roster and Rust and Karlsson go. Geno is moved or retires. My guess us he retires. Dubas may be able to get some nice assets back with good contracts left of Karlsson and Rust deals. Pens want to extend Sid and maybe 10 million for a couple years may work.

 

[Freeptop]

I've said it for years that this team settles for mediocre top six wingers because they're still envisioning Sid and Geno in their primes being able to score 100+ points playing next to 40 point wingers.

They still don't seem to understand that at their respective ages, Sid and Geno can no longer carry a line if their wingers are a bunch of 40-50 point middle six wingers.

The Pens didn't try to make Sid and Geno carry a bunch of 40-50 point wingers this year, though?

Guentzel usually hovers around a point-per-game. Rust has turned into a 60-70 point pace player (last season being an exception - he's on pace for 70 points over 82 games this season). Smith over his career usually hit a pace of around 60 points or more per season. Rakell was usually good for a 50-60 point pace (he hit 60 just last year!)

The team wasn't expecting Sid and Geno to carry lesser wingers, but Smith and Rakell both unexpectedly turned into pumpkins.

 

[DesertPenguin]

He is, solid pick up by Dubas in that haul of a trade.

If Smith goes out and and a better LW comes back, Jake or equivalent, then Im great with it. If Smith/Bunting are our top 6 LWs next season, that won't fly.

XXX Rakell
Bunting Rust
DOC Puustinen

Looks pretty nice assuming the mystery player is the best of the bunch. We have the cap space, but that's awful hard to do still.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The Pens didn't try to make Sid and Geno carry a bunch of 40-50 point wingers this year, though?

Guentzel usually hovers around a point-per-game. Rust has turned into a 60-70 point pace player (last season being an exception - he's on pace for 70 points over 82 games this season). Smith over his career usually hit a pace of around 60 points or more per season. Rakell was usually good for a 50-60 point pace (he hit 60 just last year!)

The team wasn't expecting Sid and Geno to carry lesser wingers, but Smith and Rakell both unexpectedly turned into pumpkins.

I'll do a 5v5 P/P60 comparison in the spirit of fairness, since the PP deployment is very different between these wingers over their careers.

This season vs career average:
Guentzel: 2.47 > 2.32
Rakell: 1.64 < 1.75
Smith: 1.79 < 1.85
Rust: 2.13 > 1.75

Rakell and Smith are marginally below their career norms at 5v5. This sounds like an unreasonable expectations thing, after Smith had an outlier year last year.
However, Smith is far below his Vegas average, which was well over 2.00.
Rakell's PP play drop-off from last year is the bigger concern. They were right to strip him of the spot.
Rust is having one of his strongest years pace-wise, although he's missed 20 games.

35-45 pts is what you get if you're giving top-six wingers PP2 only, if they're healthy. That's standard across the league. 4-5 mil AAV for that.
Last year Zucker had a very strong year and couldn't crack 50. At least his goal ratio was very strong.

 

[Pancakes]

Lots of wildcards here. Is Geno done? He can't play center and not sure he can play LW but he can't be moved and maybe his loss of speed can be offset with playing a less demanding position.

His demise has been greatly exaggerated. He's still creating chances at a high rate.

https://x.com/JFreshHockey/status/1769789825861763270?s=20

Sid and Geno need more help than they're getting but they're still capable of being good players with the right supporting cast.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The Pens didn't try to make Sid and Geno carry a bunch of 40-50 point wingers this year, though?

Guentzel usually hovers around a point-per-game. Rust has turned into a 60-70 point pace player (last season being an exception - he's on pace for 70 points over 82 games this season). Smith over his career usually hit a pace of around 60 points or more per season. Rakell was usually good for a 50-60 point pace (he hit 60 just last year!)

The team wasn't expecting Sid and Geno to carry lesser wingers, but Smith and Rakell both unexpectedly turned into pumpkins.

Guentzel's the only guy who's legitimately elite. Rust's numbers wouldn't be anywhere close to what they are if he wasn't used by Sullivan as the #1 winger on the team. He'd fall into that 40-50 point range on any other team, largely because he wouldn't be the top option all the time.

I'm not sure where you're getting Smith's numbers from. He's hit 60 points exactly ONE time in his career, so I'm not sure how he's usually at 60 points or more. Not to mention, the most recent seasons (past 4 seasons) are more indicative of the type of player a player is NOW and Smith's got 152 points in 249 games, or a exactly at a 50 point pace (which is what I said - 40 to 50 point winger).

Rakell's similar. He had a great year last year with the Pens, but before that he hasn't been close to a 50-60 point winger since 2017-18 (which ironically is the last time this team was relevant).

Also, if you look at the discussion it's about going into NEXT year. Including Guentzel skews my point since the discussion was about going into next year with Bunting, Rust, Rakell and Smith as our top six.

----

Honestly, if Crosby takes a step back next year like Malkin has this year, it's going to be hilarious how bad our offense is. People insisting that our wingers are fine or that they're not just 40-50 point wingers are going to be in for a nasty shock when they don't have Sid or Geno to carry the load.