Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You're right. I forgot that.
Well then I'll change it to trade Kap.

Perhaps even possible now that he's not simply warming a chunk of pine.

...I mean for now. He better pop in another rando hat trick again soon though or he's f***ed.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

LW you say? JVR at $4.5M for 3 years.



I should probably find a better way to spend my time on my vacation days.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

A paltry 4M investment for L2's wing seems foolish but obviously YMMV.

4M is a reasonable cap hit for me, given the winger won't see PP1. You can fill in Zucker's contributions with that most likely, given how much time he misses.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

4M is a reasonable cap hit for me, given the winger won't see PP1. You can fill in Zucker's contributions with that most likely, given how much time he misses.

I'm more interested in making the team dangerous beyond one line again. But frankly I'm not even sure that's really possible these days regardless so I'm not gonna fight too hard for it.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

4M is a reasonable cap hit for me, given the winger won't see PP1. You can fill in Zucker's contributions with that most likely, given how much time he misses.

So Geno gets boned....again with wingers. For the first time in I don't know how long, he's got 2 guys who are capable of driving and/or supporting play. It's no coincidence he's having 1 of the better starts in recent memory. This team appears quite balanced in terms of personnel. They've shaken up the defense and it's paying dividends.

If you give to the defense, then you're taking from the forwards. We might as well rewind the clock to 2019 when JJ and Schultz were making a billion dollars on the 3rd pair

If Zucker goes, then they should be prepared to spend $5-6M on his replacement. I'm firm on that unless they get someone to come in super cheap who is high quality

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'm more interested in making the team dangerous beyond one line again. But frankly I'm not even sure that's really possible these days regardless so I'm not gonna fight too hard for it.

I can understand the entertainment perspective on that. I just feel that bringing in a solid D will help us win more than shelling out extra for a ES+PP2-only winger.
The production vs goals against differential wouldn't justify it imo.

 

[Gurglesons]

I do think we should be careful about how we use cap space as well. Like what is better, giving Malkin a legit top six winger to pair with him and Rust, or using that cap space on a top 4 d?

I dunno the answer to that. But I do know if we let Zucker walk and use that cap space on defense instead, Malkin's line is probably gonna suffer for it. And the older Sid and Geno get, the more help they'll need from their wingers to play at a high level.

Ideally we find an answer at both top 4d and top 6 wing, but it will be tricky to navigate that cap-wise.

Realistically I would try and sign a Soucy or acquire that player set for 2nd LD and then try to move either Smith or POJ for the wing help.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I can understand the entertainment perspective on that. I just feel that bringing in a solid D will help us win more than shelling out extra for a ES+PP2-only winger.
The production vs goals against differential wouldn't justify it imo.

Nah it's not just entertainment. That of course helps. But hockey is definitely not a "defense is the one true path" sport and I think a ton of the Cup winners since the DPE bears that out. But I mean it's not like I'm hostile towards other ways of team building. Like I've said a ton lately... lots of ways to win in this league. Defense can of course improve your attack, as well. Sometimes significantly so. But I dunno... seems like L2 could use some reinforcement these days. Dude can still play but he ain't 27 anymore.

Frankly when I ponder over this I'm irked all over again that the team extended Rust without even giving it any thought. And I like Rust. There would be no "yeah but what about PP minutes" argument without Rust... you just stick mystery top-tier wing in Kessel's old office and call it a day. There would also be no "yeah but we need another even better wing" argument for L2 without Rust. Rust is SUPPOSED to already be that guy. But just isn't.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nah it's not just entertainment. That of course helps. But hockey is definitely not a "defense is the one true path" sport and I think a ton of the Cup winners since the DPE bears that out. But I mean it's not like I'm hostile towards other ways of team building. Like I've said a ton lately... lots of ways to win in this league. Defense can of course improve your attack, as well. Sometimes significantly so. But I dunno... seems like L2 could use some reinforcement these days. Dude can still play but he ain't 27 anymore.

Frankly when I ponder over this I'm irked all over again that the team extended Rust without even giving it any thought. And I like Rust. There would be no "yeah but what about PP minutes" argument without Rust... you just stick mystery top-tier wing in Kessel's old office and call it a day. There would also be no "yeah but we need another even better wing" argument for L2 without Rust. Rust is SUPPOSED to already be that guy. But just isn't.

Rust is pacing at 50 pts. Solid winger IMO. Once his usage has been adjusted he’s been great. Not really sure there was anything comparable on the market unless you went Marchment or Nino which just adds size but gives you a similar player.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

So Geno gets boned....again with wingers. For the first time in I don't know how long, he's got 2 guys who are capable of driving and/or supporting play. It's no coincidence he's having 1 of the better starts in recent memory. This team appears quite balanced in terms of personnel. They've shaken up the defense and it's paying dividends.

If you give to the defense, then you're taking from the forwards. We might as well rewind the clock to 2019 when JJ and Schultz were making a billion dollars on the 3rd pair

If Zucker goes, then they should be prepared to spend $5-6M on his replacement. I'm firm on that unless they get someone to come in super cheap who is high quality

Right, top 4 D who can do special teams influence results more than 2nd line wingers who don't PP1. I don't want the left side D left vulnerable, reliant on 3 guys to play better than expectations relative to their careers.
This is especially the case with Petry and Letang being old already. I'd like a proper support system when shit hits the fan.

I think you could find a pretty good 2-way winger for Malkin at 4mil that will support him and Rust nicely. Maybe we could push that to 4.5. Rust may perform better next year than he has so far as well.
I would never spend 6 mil on a 2nd line, non PP1 winger though for next season. Perhaps when the cap goes up a lot in the future, but not now.

 

[Andy99]

Allegedly the Arizona GM has set the price of 2 1sts and a 2nd/good prospect. He doesn't appear to be budging but that's not how this league works. I'm sure it'll end up being something more along the lines of what pixies is mostly-fine with (1st, 2nd, prospect).

And that’s why the player hasn’t moved…also GMRH will not be giving up first round picks for him…

 

[Gurglesons]

Right, top 4 D who can do special teams influence results more than 2nd line wingers who don't PP1. I don't want the left side D left vulnerable, reliant on 3 guys to play better than expectations relative to their careers.
This is especially the case with Petry and Letang being old already. I'd like a proper support system when shit hits the fan.

I think you could find a pretty good 2-way winger for Malkin at 4mil that will support him and Rust nicely. Maybe we could push that to 4.5. Rust may perform better next year than he has so far as well.
I would never spend 6 mil on a 2nd line, non PP1 winger though for next season. Perhaps when the cap goes up a lot in the future, but not now.

If we are acquiring a player in UFA, he will likely make 6 million or we will be paying 4 million for a slightly better McGinn type which is arguably a worse investment.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean I'll say this... fit and chemistry probably override most things so if you can find the RIGHT 4-5M dollar player for L2 LW then I'm all ears.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Nah it's not just entertainment. That of course helps. But hockey is definitely not a "defense is the one true path" sport and I think a ton of the Cup winners since the DPE bears that out. But I mean it's not like I'm hostile towards other ways of team building. Like I've said a ton lately... lots of ways to win in this league. Defense can of course improve your attack, as well. Sometimes significantly so. But I dunno... seems like L2 could use some reinforcement these days. Dude can still play but he ain't 27 anymore.

Frankly when I ponder over this I'm irked all over again that the team extended Rust without even giving it any thought. And I like Rust. There would be no "yeah but what about PP minutes" argument without Rust... you just stick mystery top-tier wing in Kessel's old office and call it a day. There would also be no "yeah but we need another even better wing" argument for L2 without Rust. Rust is SUPPOSED to already be that guy. But just isn't.

Rust was a top 10 RW over the last 3 years who PP1'd and was just great last year. He had proven chemistry with both centers. So I understood the signing at that cap hit.
He's turning it up now at least. 9 points in the last 6 despite being removed from the first unit.

If we think back to why we were losing games early, Dumoulin and Letang was a massive part of that. Now with Dumo improving (especially on the PK) we're winning again.
Letang kept us alive yesterday too.

Like I said above, I don't think pushing a winger's AAV from 4 to 5.5 mil or whatever is a guarantee of anything. A lot of guys are overpaid at those prices.
We could get a sneaky good 2-way one at 4M, like LA got with Moore recently.

 

[Peat]

He may cut it, but my question is if rolling the dice on him is the best move. That could very well be a decision management needs to make during free agency already, before his NHL sample size grows and there's more evidence to go off of.
We'll have enough cap space bring in someone pretty strong to replace Dumo.

I'm a little concerned with Smith's fit here. PP1 would obviously be ideal, but will Reirden+Sully really hand over the reigns to a kid in his first year with the big club? They're gonna strip the job from veterans like Letang and Petry? Maybe, but I'm not optimistic on that front. Reirden is pretty close with Letang. It would take a lot for him to lose the spot, as we saw this year.
I don't expect the 2D approach either if we're healthy. That would involve demoting a Forward, and who would that be?

POJ had at least a history of playing fairly acceptable defense at this level. Smith has a different skillset. He can't be used on the PK either.
How much offense could he realistically provide with 3rd pairing + PP2 minutes, and would that be the best thing for the team?
Going with that LD layout also banks on POJ keeping this up, and doing well in a 2nd pairing role. We've seen D fall off cliffs from one year to the next here many times before. I don't think we should rely on Petts being this good again either.

It's fairly likely that we'll end up needing a top 4 level LD, or at least a 2nd/3rd pair tweener like Rutta. We won't be in a cap situation where we're forced to gamble on youth.

Fair points.

I think the designed use with Smith would be third pairing PMD and 2nd unit PP guy with room to climb. That's not unlike how Schultz got here, so it's not unlikely they'd run it again. That requires them to trust Pettersson and POJ as the top 4 minute absorbers but while I take the point on them potentially falling off, arguably that's a problem that doesn't touch Smith's role at all. Upgrade them, leave Smith in place.

But that depends on how much they like him.

He was in that role the majority of the year last year for the Devils and he put up 20 points in 65 games.

I don't think having Pettersson, POJ and Smith as our LDs makes sense either, but I'm not sure who I'd want to move out because we desperately need goals from someone that isn't Letang or Petry and Smith has shown he is capable of doing that in the NHL.

The top dmen in the league are looking at 8 goals a season at 5v5. The 66th ranked dman for 5v5 goals over the past 3 seasons is John Klingberg with 10 goals... short seasons so maybe call that 4 or 5 a season?

The difference between that and Pettersson getting 2 or 3 doesn't feel enough to care about. Sure, there's the PP... but if Smith is PP2, and if only 36 dmen got more than 5 goals on the PP in the last 3 seasons, it feels unlikely to matter.

Direct goal scoring from dmen just never feels desperate to me and a long way down the list of how dmen affect the game.

You guys need to chill on Smith. He'll get his shot at a few NHL practices where he can bask in the presence of Mike Sullivan in the next 7-8 years geez. Until then he has training camps which are definitely consequential on this team.

I know you're being facetious but since you've touched on a pertinent point I'll say it - since Smith runs out of waiver exemption this season, we can't do this. It'll be defecate or extricate time, just like it was with POJ.

I do think we should be careful about how we use cap space as well. Like what is better, giving Malkin a legit top six winger to pair with him and Rust, or using that cap space on a top 4 d?

I dunno the answer to that. But I do know if we let Zucker walk and use that cap space on defense instead, Malkin's line is probably gonna suffer for it. And the older Sid and Geno get, the more help they'll need from their wingers to play at a high level.

Ideally we find an answer at both top 4d and top 6 wing, but it will be tricky to navigate that cap-wise.

Imo that should not be a major issue. Dumo will vacate the t-77th highest D cap hit in the league, Zucker the t-30th LW. Assume the cap raise and JJ's buyout penalty going down will pay for Jarry and it's money in, money out. Just got to identify the guys.

I mean I'll say this... fit and chemistry probably override most things so if you can find the RIGHT 4-5M dollar player for L2 LW then I'm all ears.

Aka clone Rakell.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rust was a top 10 RW over the last 3 years who PP1'd and was just great last year. He had proven chemistry with both centers. So I understood the signing at that cap hit.
He's turning it up now at least. 9 points in the last 6 despite being removed from the first unit.

If we think back to why we were losing games early, Dumoulin and Letang was a massive part of that. Now with Dumo improving (especially on the PK) we're winning again.
Letang kept us alive yesterday too.

Like I said above, I don't think pushing a winger's AAV from 4 to 5.5 mil or whatever is a guarantee of anything. A lot of guys are overpaid at those prices.
We could get a sneaky good 2-way one at 4M, like LA got with Moore recently.

Using a player that was previously acquired and got a contract on a team is a bad judgement call IMO.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Right, top 4 D who can do special teams influence results more than 2nd line wingers who don't PP1. I don't want the left side D left vulnerable, reliant on 3 guys to play better than expectations relative to their careers.
This is especially the case with Petry and Letang being old already. I'd like a proper support system when shit hits the fan.

I think you could find a pretty good 2-way winger for Malkin at 4mil that will support him and Rust nicely. Maybe we could push that to 4.5. Rust may perform better next year than he has so far as well.
I would never spend 6 mil on a 2nd line, non PP1 winger though for next season. Perhaps when the cap goes up a lot in the future, but not now.

Why will the left side be vulnerable? POJ is making significant strides. Petts has shown he can handle 1st or 2nd pairing roles. Dumo is appropriately being played down the lineup. Ruh and Friedmann are in the wings in case of injury. Certainly not ideal, but the defense isn't lacking in depth.

If there should be any concern, it's the Right side where you have a stroke victim playing some terrible hockey prior to his episode and an older player who just got injured. Neither of them are spring chickens.

We're spending about $6M right now in Zucker as a L2 winger. He's proven valuable at that price because he does a ton of things well. He's injured and hasn't been great in that department unfortunately, but when he's played he's produced quality hockey for this team. The devil you know and all that...

This team's philosophy should be: "Support Sid and Malkin bc they can't do the same things they did 5 years ago". Taking away assets from them would be myopic.

Again they've rebuilt/retooled this defense on the fly, which was pretty impressive. Why fiddle with what is working?
I just don't see them succeeding with doing the same thing with the F group with allocating less assets to Geno/Sid.

 

[chethejet]

I would love for Hextall to do the upgrades he discussed when hired. Size some needed grit and playing more balanced vs the grinding smurf speed guys who sully likes. Heinen is a prime example of this. He has modest skill, plays with speed and adheres to the "system". But he simply doesn't make a dent as bigger D men just take him out of the play. I much rather invest in a DOC who can gain from PT and using his size and reach and modest offense to be a good winger. Just Sully has to get to that understanding that Hextall wants a little more bite and less bark. Get a LD like Dillon in a trade or a A like the Kraken LD. If POJ is your second line guy move Petts. Dillon is an example of a harder physical presence that I prefer.

Dillon? Letang
POJ Petry
Smith Rutta

 

[Pancakes]

Realistically I would try and sign a Soucy or acquire that player set for 2nd LD and then try to move either Smith or POJ for the wing help.

I'd probably move Smith before POJ at this point. I just love POJ's game.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think if you look at our cap picture it explains why you let Zucker and Blueger and possibly even Jarry all walk.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
X - Malkin - Rust
McGinn - Carter - Kapanen
X - X - X
X

Pettersson - Letang
POJ - Petry
X - Rutta
Ruhwedel

X
Desmith

We have 25,500,000 mil to fill in those 7 holes. If you commit 18 million in total to Top Six LW, your starting goaltender and a 2nd / 3rd pairing LD that gives you 6.5 million to fill in the 4th line and an extra forward.

It's why I think you go for Varlamov or Reimer over Jarry or target a goaltender like Bob at 50% versus paying him above 6 million.

 

[Josey Wales]

I think if you look at our cap picture it explains why you let Zucker and Blueger and possibly even Jarry all walk.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
X - Malkin - Rust
McGinn - Carter - Kapanen
X - X - X
X

Pettersson - Letang
POJ - Petry
X - Rutta
Ruhwedel

X
Desmith

We have 25,500,000 mil to fill in those 7 holes. If you commit 18 million in total to Top Six LW, your starting goaltender and a 2nd / 3rd pairing LD that gives you 6.5 million to fill in the 4th line and an extra forward.

It's why I think you go for Varlamov or Reimer over Jarry or target a goaltender like Bob at 50% versus paying him above 6 million.

THANK GOD YOU ARE NOT A GM How's that Russian Flop doing ??

 

[Gurglesons]

THANK GOD YOU ARE NOT A GM How's that Russian Flop doing ??

Bob at 50%, prospect and a pick for future considerations.

or Jarry at 7+x6.

What you taking?

 

[Josey Wales]

Bob at 50%, prospect and a pick for future considerations.

or Jarry at 7+x6.

What you taking?

Jarry

It's why I think you go for Varlamov or Reimer over Jarry or target a goaltender like Bob at 50% versus paying him above 6 million.

Which ones Nickname is Bob ?

 

[Gurglesons]

Jarry

Fair play. And what if we lose another 7 game series with him putting up pedestrian numbers in the playoffs?

 

[Gurglesons]

Jarry

It's why I think you go for Varlamov or Reimer over Jarry or target a goaltender like Bob at 50% versus paying him above 6 million.

Which ones Nickname is Bob ?

Bobrovsky.

I think I'd take Bobrovsky if we can get a decent NHL ready prospect from Florida for taking him at 50%. His contract matches up with the rest of our team's "window" and he's been a good goaltender in the regular season and playoffs when playing behind a competent defense.

I also think Flower 2.0 is probably ready for NHL duty in his second year.