Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap: Free Agency, everyone panic!!! Geno talk to the Geno thread only please

[Zirakzigil]

Off season time. New thread time apparently cause @Ugene Magic doesn’t like high page counts.

So how about them Malkin and Letang UFAs? Maybe we should sign one or both.

Geno thread. Keep Geno talk here:

Rumor: - Geno where art thou?

With all the Geno rumors and news, time for its own thread. Keep the Geno talk here please.

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[HandshakeLine]

Come on, you're better that this

Well, then clearly it's NOT all about the stats, would we not agree?

I'm not saying CDS is the worst goalie we've ever played, nor am I the one claiming he's a 1B.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I know nobody wants to hear this but the goaltending woes against the Rangers comes down to sheer, old fashioned, what-can-ya-do rotten ass luck. They lost their starter, backup and the best guy in WB/S (going into the season) wasn't available due to injury, either. So in most ways you are dealing with their like 4th stringer. What can a team do about that? You can't sign Holtby and Fleury and stash them in the AHL just in case, ya know?

As for Jarry versus the Isles... fair enough. He didn't get a shot at redemption this year either so it just kicks the can further down the road which is frustrating. But I guess I just worry less about goaltending in favor of the rest of the roster based on the vast majority of results over the last 15 years. I'd rather just spend CDS money rather than roll the dice on like Holtby or Fleury money for what could be the same results or possibly worse while leaving parts of the roster weaker as a result.

This is why I mentioned availability.

CDS was not AVAILABLE the last two years. Could not go to him when Jarry sucked against the Isles. Could not ride him this year because he got hurt.

I mean, might be luck, might be lack of preparation, who knows. Thing is, we needed him two years in a row for various reasons and he was not available.

I am fine betting on Jarry. What I am not fine with is not having a satisfactory contingency plan.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you bash Malkin for being Injury prone then DeSmith should be as well. The guy has not been healthy when you need him for two years in a row.

....uh, no?

Malkin is called injury prone because he has a 15 year sample size of missing a boatload of games. DeSmith getting injured twice right at the end of the season doesn't mean he's injury prone.

He may be injury prone going forward because core muscle injuries are easy to reaggravate and reinjure, but DeSmith being hurt in the last 2 years doesn't mean he's injury prone.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Well, then clearly it's NOT all about the stats, would we not agree?

I'm not saying CDS is the worst goalie we've ever played.

Do you 'member Sebastien Caron? I 'member.

 

[Darren McCord]

He's borderline between a 1B and a backup. Having your 2nd goalie be playing at a 97 point pace is good for what the role expects.

I'll ask this again. For people who have a problem with DeSmith's results as a backup goalie, what do you think are good results out of your backup? Serious question.

DeSmith is about to be 31 and has 96 NHL games.

He is not anywhere near a 1B. He also has been injured when they need him most for multiple years now. He is an ok backup but definitely not a 1B.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Meh I have more hope for Lindberg and Gauthier coming in and doing something than I do for DeSmith doing anything important for this team.

Me, too.

Signing a cheap option like CDS allows for one of those guys to actually get that shot, potentially. You sign Fleury for like 3+ million or whatever and there is zero shot.

Injury concerns re: CDS a legit gripe, though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, then clearly it's NOT all about the stats, would we not agree?

I'm not saying CDS is the worst goalie we've ever played.

No, I'm meaning that as in bringing up a 2 game sample size where Domingue played in the NHL last year is disingenuous to an insulting point.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[HandshakeLine]

Core muscle injury and possibly groin, although the team was fuzzy on that.

No, I'm meaning that as in bringing up a 2 game sample size where Domingue played in the NHL last year is disingenuous to an insulting point.

Well, then make your point better. I'm not the one arguing stats are the end-all-be-all of the goalie discussion because clearly, they have some issues.

In fact, I've always argued that goalie stats are way too team driven to be more than general metrics of performance for the position.

 

[Empoleon8771]

DeSmith is about to be 31 and has 96 NHL games.

He is not anywhere near a 1B. He also has been injured when they need him most for multiple years now. He is an ok backup but definitely not a 1B.

And in his 3 years where he's been a NHL regular, he's played in 36 games, 20 games (of 56 games) and 26 games while giving a .914 save%.

That kind of usage which those results are completely 1B results. I think DeSmith is borderline between that level and just good backup, but I think people here are just showing they have no idea what kind of results players in DeSmith's role actually put up.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This is why I mentioned availability.

CDS was not AVAILABLE the last two years. Could not go to him when Jarry sucked against the Isles. Could not ride him this year because he got hurt.

I mean, might be luck, might be lack of preparation, who knows. Thing is, we needed him two years in a row for various reasons and he was not available.

I am fine betting on Jarry. What I am not fine with is not having a satisfactory contingency plan.

Yeah I mean... if we're going to sit here for weeks at a time holding Malkin's feet to the fire about availability then fair enough. But I guess I also very, very much do not want to see the Penguins dumping another 3-4M in the position or thereabouts so it's like... I suppose this is "just OK" or whatever. I get why people roll their eyes but I struggle to imagine a better solution.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, then make your point better. I'm not the one arguing stats are the end-all-be-all of the goalie discussion because clearly, they have some issues.

You trying to disingenuously use a 2 game sample size as a "gotcha!" on my point doesn't mean I need to make my point better.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Stats are literally all that matters when it comes to goalies. All that matters is how good they are at stopping a puck, period. This isn't like it is with skaters when non-statistical subjectivity can come in. All that matters with goalies is what percentage of shots they face go in the back of the net. That's all that matters.

The only possible knock you can have against DeSmith was his injuries in the playoffs in the last 2 years, that's it. That's the only reason I'm a but uneasy with him. Purely as a goalie, he is as good as you can reasonably hope for out of a backup goalie, unless you have completely out of wack expectations for what a backup goalie is.

Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that their job is to stop the damn puck.

No because there is context to analysis too. I prefer save above expectation. It is still the same core thing, but it is more statistically relevent. Save % is not a good stat.

 

[HandshakeLine]

You trying to disingenuously use a 2 game sample size as a "gotcha!" on my point doesn't mean I need to make my point better.

Frankly, I'd be happy to help you make your point, but I'm not even sure you know what it is at this point.

Let's back track-- you argue that CDS is a 1B do you not? So, tell me what that means for you and what you think a fair approximation of results are in that position?

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

With the CDS signing, hopefully this is the day that we learn more about the status of Letang, Malkin, and Rakell.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that their job is to stop the damn puck.

No because there is context to analysis too. I prefer save above expectation. It is still the same core thing, but it is more statistically relevent. Save % is not a good stat.

Yeah I agree entirely, but that takes into account analytics and I think that starts making things messy

My overall point is that there is a lot less subjectivity when it comes to goalies. There are no elements like physicality, defensive play, leadership, grit or anything similar that can be applied to players to show why they're more/less valuable than their stats suggest. With goalies, it's literally just stopping pucks.

Frankly, I'd be happy to help you make your point, but I'm not even sure you know what it is at this point.

I really think you're just trolling here

You literally quoted one of my posts where I explained what my point was, where you tried to extrapolate a 2 game sample size of what Domingue did in the NHL last year and say "so I guess Domingue is good enough!!!!!!", as if that wasn't insultingly disingenuous for what I was saying.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Yeah I mean... if we're going to sit here for weeks at a time holding Malkin's feet to the fire about availability then fair enough. But I guess I also very, very much do not want to see the Penguins dumping another 3-4M in the position or thereabouts so it's like... I suppose this is "just OK" or whatever. I get why people roll their eyes but I struggle to imagine a better solution.

Availability is definitely a concern with Malkin.

However, he is a team legend and a guy who still produces at an elite level.

Who do you sign if not CDS? I honestly do not know. Am I okay spending more to get a Holtby or a Fleury? Sure, I guess. What other sacrifices am I willing to make to make that work? No clue.

 

[Darren McCord]

And in his 3 years where he's been a NHL regular, he's played in 36 games, 20 games (of 56 games) and 26 games while giving a .914 save%.

That kind of usage which those results are completely 1B results. I think DeSmith is borderline between that level and just good backup, but I think people here are just showing they have no idea what kind of results players in DeSmith's role actually put up.

No people want something different and some change. Also DeSmith just got a surgery that can really affect play for sometime.

Also DeSmith was below .900 against teams who actually made the playoffs

 

[Houston Penguin]

Constantly injured goaltenders, despite their stats, don’t and have not helped us. That’s the only reason why I’m not a fan of bringing CDS back.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Who do you sign if not CDS? I honestly do not know. Am I okay spending more to get a Holtby or a Fleury? Sure, I guess. What other sacrifices am I willing to make to make that work? No clue.

Exactly. That's the big rub with putting too much money in that position. It's a big risk with extremely low payoff going on 20 years, now.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No people want something different and some change. Also DeSmith just got a surgery that can really affect play for sometime.

Also DeSmith was below .900 against teams who actually made the playoffs

Change for the sake of change in positions that don't need it is dumb. Change positions that are problems. Move on from Zucker and Pettersson. Add some talent to help out Malkin. Wanting to move on from DeSmith because "we want change" is just stupid.

If you let DeSmith walk, you're just going to be bringing in someone like Holtby as a best case sceanrio, who's basically going to be doing the same exact thing here as DeSmith has done here. The difference is that you're very likely going to have to pay more because you'd be bidding against other teams.

 

[Darren McCord]

Change for the sake of change in positions that don't need it is dumb. Change positions that are problems. Move on from Zucker and Pettersson. Add some talent to help out Malkin. Wanting to move on from DeSmith because "we want change" is just stupid.

If you let DeSmith walk, you're just going to be bringing in someone like Holtby as a best case sceanrio, who's basically going to be doing the same exact thing here as DeSmith has done here. The difference is that you're very likely going to have to pay more because you'd be bidding against other teams.

I would rather have holtby at 2mil than desmith anyday.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Yeah I agree entirely, but that takes into account analytics and I think that starts making things messy

My overall point is that there is a lot less subjectivity when it comes to goalies. There are no elements like physicality, defensive play, leadership, grit or anything similar that can be applied to players to show why they're more/less valuable than their stats suggest. With goalies, it's literally just stopping pucks.



I really think you're just trolling here

You literally quoted one of my posts where I explained what my point was, where you tried to extrapolate a 2 game sample size of what Domingue did in the NHL last year and say "so I guess Domingue is good enough!!!!!!", as if that wasn't insultingly disingenuous for what I was saying.

I disagree.

I f***ing hate Patrick Roy, but that guy had huge intangibles. His leadership and resilience are what made him great. Sure, at the end of the day, he was great because he stopped pucks, I agree. However, his clutchness was because of his intangibles.

Martin Brodeur is another example. His save percentage was never flashy because the Devils did not give up a lot of shots. However, one of the big reasons why the Devils did not give up a lot of shots was because having Brodeur's puck handling abilities behind their defense enabled their system be even more effficient.

Carey Price with Canada in 2014 is a very similar example to Brodeur. Team Canada was able to play the style they played because Price was great at recovering dump ins and launching the break out. That team was the most efficient team I have ever seen. They would not have been that, despite their incredible talent, without Price's puck handling.

Of course, my examples are three HOF players, they are not the norm. My point is that limiting a goalie's impact to stopping the puck is not entirely true. It is the main factor, but in a sport like hockey where there are SO many variables, it is still not easy to measure. Easier than for a skater, I'll give you that.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Again, change for the sake of change only is no better a way to build a team than demanding to keep the band together.

Do you want better than CDS as a backup? Okay then, who? How do you get them? At what price? What if you go into UFA banking on a player and they sign elsewhere, who is your plan B? Is plan B actually worse than CDS and comes more expensive?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Nah, Emp. I'm trying to figure out what you're saying because you're being emotional and arguing about contradictory things and tilting at windmills. Put me on your ignore list again if I'm getting under your skin, I don't mind.

So, you don't think pure SV% is a good stat, fine. I agree. GAA has its warts too. So where is it in the position that stats are being so infallible?

Take our favorite horrible goaltender Domingue in two hypotheticals here-- he lets in a shorthanded goal in from the blueline on a dump-in while we're on the PP, terrible weak goal. The same night he also lets in a deflection around the crease that no goalie has a chance on. 5v5 here. According to the stats, both effect his overall stand the same, yet they're entirely different in terms of his ability to stop the puck. Letting in the 1st is, in my eyes, more indicative of his ability to properly play the position than the 2nd.

So, how do goalie stats here show that?