Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap: Free Agency, everyone panic!!! Geno talk to the Geno thread only please

[Zirakzigil]

Off season time. New thread time apparently cause @Ugene Magic doesn’t like high page counts.

So how about them Malkin and Letang UFAs? Maybe we should sign one or both.

Geno thread. Keep Geno talk here:

Rumor: - Geno where art thou?

With all the Geno rumors and news, time for its own thread. Keep the Geno talk here please.

hfboards.mandatory.com

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[3ladesof5teel]

Ok I’ll play with this scenario….

The issue is keeping the correct wingers for Geno.

What we know: Zucker and Kapanen don’t work with Malkin.
What we also know: Rickard Rakell works well with not only Geno, but with Sid as well, bringing flexibility to his usage and he plays LW/RW

That right there should be something the team should be looking at, you aren’t going to find another Rakell, this team has tried to balance Rust up and down at times, Kapanen isn’t being used correctly and neither is Zucker so why keep either at this point? Create the cap to sign Rakell, pass on Heinen and Rodrigues, leave a spot for Puustinen to fight for, he seems idiot Sully proof.

So if they’re going to keep Malkin, but then let Rakell walk, keep Zucker, do more damage to Kapanen before his value is worse, then what’s the f***ing point for Malkin to even say yes?

”Hey guys, you will totally f*** me yet again for line-mates, but boy oh boy, I really love getting f***ed over in these jersey colors more than any other one!”

The sad part is we could have known what we had in Puustinen if we saw more than 1 game on the 3rd line with Carter, what we did see was that he was smart at both ends, created a lot of chances of which ended up being an assist to a goal. We also could have found out how DOC played with Geno, but Sullivan really wanted him to learn how to suck with Boyle and Simon/ZAR for most of his call-up, so that was wasted.

Instead we saw that Heinen got a ton of opportunities that he whiffed on more than he capitalized, same for Rodrigues. That can’t be the options.

I've been on the resign RR train since day 1. It would be pretty disappointing not to b/c I think we are going to be hard pressed to find that skillset with someone else that is affordable as we sit.

Your probably a little higher on Puusy than I am but thats ok, I def dont want him starting the year in the top 6 but sure lets see him a little

View attachment 564722

If we're looking at Kap's whole time collectively as a Penguin, it hasn't been as much of a disaster as some people make it out to be. He's 2 points behind Rust at 5v5 after 2 seasons, averaging 1:55 less TOI per game.
He's played with worse players on average too.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kap back but I think we need to get who we need signed 1st than go from there. He couldn't cost that much and as you said, he hasn't been a disaster but ya he hasn't lived up to expectations.

He might figure something out......right?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

View attachment 564722

If we're looking at Kap's whole time collectively as a Penguin, it hasn't been as much of a disaster as some people make it out to be. He's 2 points behind Rust at 5v5 after 2 seasons, averaging 1:55 less TOI per game.
He's played with worse players on average too.

The best is the argument that he got top pp time to start the season and didn't do well so that's it. That's not the special teams Kapanen excelled at in Toronto. Again, Penguins hugely miscast him and ignorant bunch here want to blame him for not fitting into lines he didn't fit in. I think the fact that they were using him the way they were given the player he was developing into in Toronto shows how little the Pens did their own scouting when they wanted to use him.

Min 100 Games:
From 2015-2020 he average 0:49 mins per game on the powerplay. 12th most in that time frame of all their forwards.

From the same time period he average 1:27/gm shorthanded, 4th for forwards.

So Sullivan & Co figure yeah sure let's put him on the powerplay and In his two seasons he's averaged 0:01 per game short handed. Gee I wonder why a bloke that barely plays on the powerplay isn't comfortable there than say...the penalty kill. They miscast him. They got wrapped up into the potential of what he could do with only Geno and not what he's already done in his time in Toronto.

So it's Kaps fault the coaching staff didn't understand the player? They did the same with Pearson.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Funny how the 5th best even strength scorer on the team, sucks. 4th best for forwards.

Only forwards better - Crosby, Guentzel, Rust.

 

[Giskard]

The only contract Geno should had been offered is 7.1m x 4 years.
This would fix the gap between the 12-year contract che Crosby signed and Malkin couldn't because of the 8-year max.
And because 7.1 you know.

 

[Peat]

View attachment 564722

If we're looking at Kap's whole time collectively as a Penguin, it hasn't been as much of a disaster as some people make it out to be. He's 2 points behind Rust at 5v5 after 2 seasons, averaging 1:55 less TOI per game.
He's played with worse players on average too.

This is true and I think some people have forgotten it.

But then again, the reason they've forgotten it is he spent a long time being an unbelievably huge disaster. And maybe they remember that his points totals look healthy due to an unbelievable stretch of play his first season here, and don't believe it can be replicated. Which makes it kind of fair to concentrate on the disaster part...

I've been on the resign RR train since day 1. It would be pretty disappointing not to b/c I think we are going to be hard pressed to find that skillset with someone else that is affordable as we sit.

Your probably a little higher on Puusy than I am but thats ok, I def dont want him starting the year in the top 6 but sure lets see him a little


I wouldn't mind seeing Kap back but I think we need to get who we need signed 1st than go from there. He couldn't cost that much and as you said, he hasn't been a disaster but ya he hasn't lived up to expectations.

He might figure something out......right?

Unless he really wants to be here at all costs, he's going to cost his QO/Arb case (3.something) or his UFA price. That's too much in my book. Agree on bringing Rakell back.

I'm considering options if Geno's gone and Trocheck doesn't choose us.
There has to be a plan C, and it doesn't look like it's gonna be Kadri.

Not seeing other UFA 2C options who will have reasonable AAV. It would have to be through trade, and that'll cost us things Hex hasn't been keen on spending to this point. Trading our 1sts seems off the table.

Plus I'm suggesting a 1 out > 2 in scenario, using our ~8 mil.
This is not a Domi vs Malkin discussion. This is a Domi + new winger vs Malkin discussion. Like how much will Marchment cost, after one great year?
He's not established and the AAV may be palatable.

I could see Domi scoring 35-45 points here. What are we gonna get from Malkin next year? 60 in 65 games? 55 in 60 games? Think those are reasonable projections for him at 36 years old.
That disparity can be filled in through a winger acquisition, and we'd get younger, faster and deeper as a bonus.
In Marchment's case he'll make his line harder to score against for sure.

If the best C option is Domi, then hand Blueger the keys to the second line and go ham on his W support.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I love Blue but 2nd line C?

Lads, don't post high.

The only contract Geno should had been offered is 7.1m x 4 years.
This would fix the gap between the 12-year contract che Crosby signed and Malkin couldn't because of the 8-year max.
And because 7.1 you know.

6.9m/yr would be better.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Counterpoint: post high all the time, because how else you gonna deal with this nonsensical hellworld?

 

[jmelm]

Kapanen's been having rough seasons for his entire career. Dude's just not very good, and is nothing more than a streaky as hell 3rd liner with a squirrel's brain. I don't think Sullivan did him any favors in terms of usage, but Kap didn't give Sullivan any reasons to cater to him either. Kap being trash isn't on Sully, imo.

Just end the experiment and move on. Shouldn't be on the team in October, but I imagine he will be since the FO seems intent on switching out as few parts as possible and going with the same roster, more or less, for yet another go.

I think this is a balanced and fair take that I pretty much agree with.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I'd like to use Kapanen as a trade chip. For what? I don't know. I'm kinda just sick of him/disappointed.

Also, didn't a majority of us want to see Zucker-Crosby-Kapanen & Guentzel-Malkin-Rust?

 

[Pens x]

I'd like to use Kapanen as a trade chip. For what? I don't know. I'm kinda just sick of him/disappointed.

Also, didn't a majority of us want to see Zucker-Crosby-Kapanen & Guentzel-Malkin-Rust?

GCR is life

I really don’t want Erod or Heinen back. You signed them dirt cheap, move on. Erod was atrocious for most of the second half of the season. Heinen vanished at times considering he played some prime minutes.

I don’t trust Sully with either.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'd like to use Kapanen as a trade chip. For what? I don't know. I'm kinda just sick of him/disappointed.

Also, didn't a majority of us want to see Zucker-Crosby-Kapanen & Guentzel-Malkin-Rust?

If traded, Kap's probably part of a one-for-one swap with a similar guy with tools who hasn't put them together. Poolparty, maybe?

 

[Deport Ogie]

If traded, Kap's probably part of a one-for-one swap with a similar guy with tools who hasn't put them together. Poolparty, maybe?

JP is another of those players where the numbers dudes love him and believe him to be a useful, positive value player but the traditional production looks lacking.

I'd make this trade in a second personally but I'd be very curious to see what kind of tangible results he might provide and how he is valuated.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Re-sign Malkin, give him 4 years to keep the cap hit down

He said "stroke"

 

[Power Surge]

GCR is life

I really don’t want Erod or Heinen back. You signed them dirt cheap, move on. Erod was atrocious for most of the second half of the season. Heinen vanished at times considering he played some prime minutes.

I don’t trust Sully with either.

Because hes not a top 6 player.

 

[ColePens]

I would just encourage anyone/everyone to have an open mind going into the offseason. I personally want Geno, Letang, and Sid to retire a Penguin, but we did lose in the first round 4 straight years. So I'm okay with it getting worse or getting better. I'm not okay with status quo. Detroit wouldn't let go of their playoff "streak" and it has haunted them in their rebuild. The writing was on the wall for them earlier.

So I'm just thinking an open mind is a good thing. Status quo is the only unacceptable mark. I personally would have fired Sully. Not that he's a bad coach, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" league and 4 exits in the first round with this group is unacceptable.

 

[Peat]

I'd like to use Kapanen as a trade chip. For what? I don't know. I'm kinda just sick of him/disappointed.

Also, didn't a majority of us want to see Zucker-Crosby-Kapanen & Guentzel-Malkin-Rust?

I'll take a 3rd for him today.

A lot of me would like to keep him because the speed/skill combo can really get things done and I back most guys to bounce back after tough years, but that year was so tough I think it'd be better for everyone to have a fresh start.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Deport Ogie]

I would just encourage anyone/everyone to have an open mind going into the offseason. I personally want Geno, Letang, and Sid to retire a Penguin, but we did lose in the first round 4 straight years. So I'm okay with it getting worse or getting better. I'm not okay with status quo. Detroit wouldn't let go of their playoff "streak" and it has haunted them in their rebuild. The writing was on the wall for them earlier.

So I'm just thinking an open mind is a good thing. Status quo is the only unacceptable mark. I personally would have fired Sully. Not that he's a bad coach, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" league and 4 exits in the first round with this group is unacceptable.

This is why GM's get the big bucks eh? While I agree that status quo is unacceptable, making change simply for the sake of change can be equally damning.

Quoting 4 consecutive first round exits is valid and we are all doing it but I think it's valid to look deeper. Why were they beaten? Did they lose to NYI or MTL for the same reasons they lost to NYR?

 

[td_ice]

Puljujärvi can't score with Mcd that's the red flag. Look what Kane has done with that opportunity

Reportedly the Oilers feel he is a 3rd liner. Which I'm reading as neither McDavid or Draisaitl want him on their line. If either did, he wouldn't be available.

He played 66 games , same as Brain Boyle. Jesse P with 14 goals, Boyle with 11.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I would just encourage anyone/everyone to have an open mind going into the offseason. I personally want Geno, Letang, and Sid to retire a Penguin, but we did lose in the first round 4 straight years. So I'm okay with it getting worse or getting better. I'm not okay with status quo. Detroit wouldn't let go of their playoff "streak" and it has haunted them in their rebuild. The writing was on the wall for them earlier.

So I'm just thinking an open mind is a good thing. Status quo is the only unacceptable mark. I personally would have fired Sully. Not that he's a bad coach, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" league and 4 exits in the first round with this group is unacceptable.

As a sports person, I agree with you 100%. You need to shake things up a little bit. However, what options are out there that are better than Letang and Malkin? None, IMHO.

As a marketing guy, I disagree. Status quo is 100% the way to go to maximize revenue and interest in the team. Malkin, Crosby and Letang retiring together is worth more than winning one more round. Of course, winning a Cup would be what works best for business and fans... but would letting go of Geno gives us a better chance of winning? Debatable. Letting go of Letang? Absolutely not. The risk is probably not worth the reward.

I do expect business to win in the end and I do expect Malkin and Letang to both be back.

 

[Andy99]

I would just encourage anyone/everyone to have an open mind going into the offseason. I personally want Geno, Letang, and Sid to retire a Penguin, but we did lose in the first round 4 straight years. So I'm okay with it getting worse or getting better. I'm not okay with status quo. Detroit wouldn't let go of their playoff "streak" and it has haunted them in their rebuild. The writing was on the wall for them earlier.

So I'm just thinking an open mind is a good thing. Status quo is the only unacceptable mark. I personally would have fired Sully. Not that he's a bad coach, but it's a "what have you done for me lately" league and 4 exits in the first round with this group is unacceptable.

you can change the status quo AND resign Letang and Malkin…they’re not mutually exclusive…in fact, the middle six wingers and Dmen can and should be changed up and the mix improved…getting rid of Zucker, Kap, ERod and one or two overpriced Dmen should be in the works…now if you tell me they’ll resign the big guys and resign ZAR, Simon and MAF, I’ll be shaking my fist at the sky lol…

 

[ColePens]

This is why GM's get the big bucks eh? While I agree that status quo is unacceptable, making change simply for the sake of change can be equally damning.

Quoting 4 consecutive first round exits is valid and we are all doing it but I think it's valid to look deeper. Why were they beaten? Did they lose to NYI or MTL for the same reasons they lost to NYR?

Yeah I can't pinpoint the issue. IMO I am still in that same Bylsma-MJ-Sully transition. I feel it's coaching. I know it doesn't guarantee a Cup like I thought it did back in 2012-2015, but I definitely still look to coaching.

I think the team has one miracle run in them but it has to be well coached. It HAS to be well coached. So I keep going back there. I think it's the easier solution.

As a sports person, I agree with you 100%. You need to shake things up a little bit. However, what options are out there that are better than Letang and Malkin? None, IMHO.

As a marketing guy, I disagree. Status quo is 100% the way to go to maximize revenue and interest in the team. Malkin, Crosby and Letang retiring together is worth more than winning one more round. Of course, winning a Cup would be what works best for business and fans... but would letting go of Geno gives us a better chance of winning? Debatable. Letting go of Letang? Absolutely not. The risk is probably not worth the reward.

I do expect business to win in the end and I do expect Malkin and Letang to both be back.

I can't argue a single thing you said. It's just true/fact. However I do think the difference between the Pens and the Pirates is that business earnings are not the only thing being looked at. I think they'd have more interest in shaking things up.

Personally as I mentioned before, shaking things up to shake it up never really works. It has to have purpose. That's why I would have gone the coaching route unfortunately. They backed themselves into a hole to be honest.

you can change the status quo AND resign Letang and Malkin…they’re not mutually exclusive…in fact, the middle six wingers and Dmen can and should be changed up and the mix improved…getting rid of Zucker, Kap, ERod and one or two overpriced Dmen should be in the works…now if you tell me they’ll resign the big guys and resign ZAR, Simon and MAF, I’ll be shaking my fist at the sky lol…

Oh i'm REALLY open minded when it comes to the offseason. I've stated my opinion multiple times above on what I'd do. My point is just whatever happens... it is what it is. They backed themselves into a hole by losing 4 straight. To me that leaves no option off the table.

My perfect world exists with 87, 71, and 58 retiring as a Penguin. I don't know why but I feel the 3 Cups earned them that. If it was 1 cup, I change my mind completely.

 

[Andy99]

From RW’s latest blog … not in favor of ditching the pick but he’s right on the state of our roster…

“The Penguins have a recent example of using their 21st overall pick with Sam Poulin. Three years later and he is no closer to being a contributor on what is a team looking to compete. The odds of a Sam Poulin are bigger than a

I think the better path is to use the 21st overall selection in a draft day trade. There are different ways you can use it.

The classic way of using it individually in an attempt to acquire a player of value

Combining the first round pick with another rostered player to acquire a player of value

Or the less popular, but still useful, attaching the first round pick to a bad contract player in an effort to convince another team to take that player (ie Jeff Carter). It isn't palatable, but neither is falling victim to the sunken cost fallacy.


I’d rather go down one of those three paths than to actually select a player with the pick. It think it is likely the Penguins will re-sign Kris Letang. If you’re doing that you are pushing your chips in now. You need players who can help now. Or you need to get rid of cap hits on your roster to give yourself more flexibility.

The Penguins do not have a lot of wiggle room for mistakes in this timeline. There are some paths to increase their chances of staying relevant. They need to take advantage of them.

Re-sign both Kris Letang and Evgeni Malkin

Use their first round pick for immediate help now

Ditch some mid-tier contracts for better roster flexibility. Candidates include: Brian Dumoulin, Kasperi Kapanen (don’t bring back), Brock McGinn, Marcus Pettersson, Jeff Carter, and Jason Zucker.

While these are all reasonable and actionable. I question the appetite Ron Hextall has for actually going through with them. I think it would be to the team’s detriment.”

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - The Pittsburgh Penguins and the 21st overall pick

www.hockeybuzz.com

 

[Peat]

This is why GM's get the big bucks eh? While I agree that status quo is unacceptable, making change simply for the sake of change can be equally damning.

Quoting 4 consecutive first round exits is valid and we are all doing it but I think it's valid to look deeper. Why were they beaten? Did they lose to NYI or MTL for the same reasons they lost to NYR?

Yes. The holy trinity of they had far better goaltending, our stars had issues (mostly injury related), and our depth underperformed their regular season while theirs overperformed (and continued to do so), with a side order of "run cold when in commanding positions" which you can interpret as a mental issue, or the natural consequence of only being able to keep up overperforming for so long, or both.

Considering how much the first two issues have been tied to luck, and the amount of luck needed to improve things there through trade and FA, that only really leaves the depth thing. Which I tie in to the way the reffing changes come playoff time and some weaknesses coming from having to go through the bargain bin for parts.

you can change the status quo AND resign Letang and Malkin…they’re not mutually exclusive…in fact, the middle six wingers and Dmen can and should be changed up and the mix improved…getting rid of Zucker, Kap, ERod and one or two overpriced Dmen should be in the works…now if you tell me they’ll resign the big guys and resign ZAR, Simon and MAF, I’ll be shaking my fist at the sky lol…

That sounds an awful lot like "trade all our bad players for their good players".


edit: Incidentally, this is why I find Sully chat irrelevant. We are locked into a roster that needs a lot to go right by Rutherford's decisions, and we have no luck but bad luck. Unless Hextall pulls of a small miracle, the coach's identity is moot.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Yeah I can't pinpoint the issue. IMO I am still in that same Bylsma-MJ-Sully transition. I feel it's coaching. I know it doesn't guarantee a Cup like I thought it did back in 2012-2015, but I definitely still look to coaching.

I think the team has one miracle run in them but it has to be well coached. It HAS to be well coached. So I keep going back there. I think it's the easier solution.



I can't argue a single thing you said. It's just true/fact. However I do think the difference between the Pens and the Pirates is that business earnings are not the only thing being looked at. I think they'd have more interest in shaking things up.

Personally as I mentioned before, shaking things up to shake it up never really works. It has to have purpose. That's why I would have gone the coaching route unfortunately. They backed themselves into a hole to be honest.



Oh i'm REALLY open minded when it comes to the offseason. I've stated my opinion multiple times above on what I'd do. My point is just whatever happens... it is what it is. They backed themselves into a hole by losing 4 straight. To me that leaves no option off the table.

My perfect world exists with 87, 71, and 58 retiring as a Penguin. I don't know why but I feel the 3 Cups earned them that. If it was 1 cup, I change my mind completely.

I would have fired Sully after the loss to the Isles.

This year? I mean, sure, he is the same old Sully and the reasons to fire him after 2021 still apply today. However, if management was okay keeping him after that debacle, it would be tough to blame him for this year's loss.

If Crosby does not get cheapshotted, we likely reach the ECF, IMO... with a 3rd-string goalie.

The mix and the coaching were not TOO bad this year. We are a healthy Jarry and Sid-not-being-cheapshotted away from at least winning against the Rangers.

That being said, as @Andy99 said, there are ways to avoid keeping the status quo and improving the roster. Keeping Geno and Tanger are, IMO, a must if we want to continue to contend. Geno less than Letang, but still.