Salary Cap: Pens Off Season Thread: Pre Free Agency Shenanigans!

[Empoleon8771]

This is a much different roster than the one you posted.

The roster you posted originally looks like an NHL23 roster with no rhyme or reason to player types and a defense that is without question the worst in the metro.

"Much different roster", as in 2 players swapped for 2 other players.

I don't think I'd understand it tbh. I don't see a coherent identity to that team, and I don't see that team as either rebuilding or trying to make noise. It's just plastering over the holes from last year in the cheapest way with no attempt to improve.

Could you make a potentially interesting third line around Granlund as a third liner? Maybe. I think you'd want the other guys to either have the shooting skill to mesh with him, or the playmaking ability to carve open opportunities together. I don't think Kampf fits that. Really, I'm not sure how to make such a line work without either spending too much money or getting some unlikely bargains.

For Granlund to remain on this team requires one of the following things imo

a) Use in the top six where that cap hit belongs
b) Using our other assets to gain enough undercosted players that he can have some good players to play off in the bottom six without sacrificing on necessary strength elsewhere
c) A mistake

I strongly disagree with this. Frederic and Kampf should be sizable upgrades on who the Penguins had in their bottom-6 last year. That team is built like the Penguins are going to be built, as an offensive top-6 and a defensive bottom-6. That 3rd line is more suited to fit what Sullivan wants out of his bottom-6 than what they had last year.

I also don't think the Penguins agree with your stance on Granlund being a top-6 player or bust. Teams have historically used him in a 2-way role and he wasn't actually bad defensively in that role last year with the Penguins. The idea of a Frederic-Kampf-Granlund line would be that it's a defensive line where all 3 guys can handle themselves defensively while Granlund adds some playmaking talent for the line, Kampf is the defensive anchor at center and Frederic adds physicality and a goal scoring touch.

Would I like that idea? No, I'd much rather trade Granlund and bring in Connor Brown for that line. But it's an idea that I can at least squint and understand the thought process.

 

[Peat]

I mean the Tanev contract was gleefully taken by Seattle who is a successful team. He is a good player who we could use right now.

The regression in "the Brockstar" last year was strange and irritating. He had stretches where he ran hot as a way above average bottom sixer.

This.

A lot of people hate big contracts in the bottom six because they want to pump all the money into the top six and top four... but most teams have some big contracts in their bottom six. Just hard not to.

The trick is to pick good players to give them to.

And don't put them in front of an ass blue line that constantly gets them into trouble.

Plus, much as I prefer the "make your top half of the line up a death star and work out the rest of them" approach, I don't think we've got the horses for it or can acquire them, at which point "be very deep and well organised" is the next best option.

The defensive injuries were a major reason we missed the playoffs though.

For reals.

As ever, any predictions of "this team will be worse than last year's when the disaster injuries strike" needs to consider that the disaster injuries struck the year before. They always do. This team is just non-stop disaster injuries.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm cool to trade Granlund with $1.5M (30%) retained to Vancouver for Garland.

Cap Hit on Buyout after Retained Salary Trade | Puckpedia

When a player is bought out who was previously retained, the buyout cap hit is allocated by the same % as the retained transaction. The team that originally retained salary has that cap hit replaced by their portion of the buyout cap hit. Dion Phaneuf is a good example as Ottawa retained 25%...

puckpedia.com

From what I understand, then Vancouver's buyout would drop by 30% as well.

Seems fair.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Honestly, while I feel there's really not a lot to work with regarding revamping this team's roster (there's just not enough assets and the UFA crop isn't great), I think an area that Dubas could have a great impact on which would pay dividends is the skill coaches and trainers. IIRC we basically fired everyone Hextall brought in there, so it's clear that Dubas isn't happy with them.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Honestly, while I feel there's really not a lot to work with regarding revamping this team's roster (there's just not enough assets and the UFA crop isn't great), I think an area that Dubas could have a great impact on which would pay dividends is the skill coaches and trainers. IIRC we basically fired everyone Hextall brought in there, so it's clear that Dubas isn't happy with them.

Yeah one of Dubas' big strengths is doing a phenomenal job at filling out a front office, he did a really strong job at that in Toronto. I'm expecting to see him poach more and more guys from Toronto that he knows are good to fill out roles with the Penguins.

I believe I read that most were expecting Wendel Clark to become the new Penguins director of scouting but I haven't heard any update on that in a bit.

I'm cool to trade Granlund with $1.5M (30%) retained to Vancouver for Garland.

Cap Hit on Buyout after Retained Salary Trade | Puckpedia

When a player is bought out who was previously retained, the buyout cap hit is allocated by the same % as the retained transaction. The team that originally retained salary has that cap hit replaced by their portion of the buyout cap hit. Dion Phaneuf is a good example as Ottawa retained 25%...

puckpedia.com

From what I understand, then Vancouver's buyout would drop by 30% as well.

Seems fair.

I don't think Vancouver would spring for this tbh

 

[Peat]

I strongly disagree with this. Frederic and Kampf should be sizable upgrades on who the Penguins had in their bottom-6 last year. That team is built like the Penguins are going to be built, as an offensive top-6 and a defensive bottom-6. That 3rd line is more suited to fit what Sullivan wants out of his bottom-6 than what they had last year.

I also don't think the Penguins agree with your stance on Granlund being a top-6 player or bust. Teams have historically used him in a 2-way role and he wasn't actually bad defensively in that role last year with the Penguins. The idea of a Frederic-Kampf-Granlund line would be that it's a defensive line where all 3 guys can handle themselves defensively while Granlund adds some playmaking talent for the line, Kampf is the defensive anchor at center and Frederic adds physicality and a goal scoring touch.

Would I like that idea? No, I'd much rather trade Granlund and bring in Connor Brown for that line. But it's an idea that I can at least squint and understand the thought process.

The point isn't that Granlund's skill set is top 6 player or bust.

It is that his cap hit is top 6 player, the totem pole of a very good third line, or flushing money down the drain when the team needs major surgery.

He is probably not the middle of those options.

So I won't understand if he's still here unless he's a top 6 player - which I hate, but at least makes sense - or they've done so well on the surgery they can afford to flush money down the drain.



Also Frederic has a grand total of one season with Boston where his individual production and possession numbers don't look like DOC's or Poehling's, which makes him suspect to continue doing so (particularly when Boston were a train last year), and Kampf is a 3C/4C who shouldn't be a 3C unless he's being tentpoled by his wingers. Maybe they're upgrades on last year's bottom 6, but they're still gambles in terms of being good enough. They'd make 2/3rds of a pretty punchy looking 4th line, but as a 3rd line? Yuck.

I can understand them taking gambles on a cheap 3rd line with question marks. I can understand them assembling an expensive 3rd line with proven talent. I won't understand assembling an expensive 3rd line with question marks.

 

[Gurglesons]

The point isn't that Granlund's skill set is top 6 player or bust.

It is that his cap hit is top 6 player, the totem pole of a very good third line, or flushing money down the drain when the team needs major surgery.

He is probably not the middle of those options.

So I won't understand if he's still here unless he's a top 6 player - which I hate, but at least makes sense - or they've done so well on the surgery they can afford to flush money down the drain.



Also Frederic has a grand total of one season with Boston where his individual production and possession numbers don't look like DOC's or Poehling's, which makes him suspect to continue doing so (particularly when Boston were a train last year), and Kampf is a 3C/4C who shouldn't be a 3C unless he's being tentpoled by his wingers. Maybe they're upgrades on last year's bottom 6, but they're still gambles in terms of being good enough. They'd make 2/3rds of a pretty punchy looking 4th line, but as a 3rd line? Yuck.

I can understand them taking gambles on a cheap 3rd line with question marks. I can understand them assembling an expensive 3rd line with proven talent. I won't understand assembling an expensive 3rd line with question marks.

Yeah Frederic ain’t some third line savior.

Not to mention he has a long concussion history. He’s a nice coin flip and hope he outplays his contract but essentially building your third line around him as a goalscoring presence is bizarre.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also Frederic has a grand total of one season with Boston where his individual production and possession numbers don't look like DOC's or Poehling's, which makes him suspect to continue doing so (particularly when Boston were a train last year), and Kampf is a 3C/4C who shouldn't be a 3C unless he's being tentpoled by his wingers. Maybe they're upgrades on last year's bottom 6, but they're still gambles in terms of being good enough. They'd make 2/3rds of a pretty punchy looking 4th line, but as a 3rd line? Yuck.

I think a 3rd line based around Frederic and Kampf wouldn't be any worse than a 3rd line centered around Blueger and Tanev in the past. You just have to get the right guy to play with them.

That's why I really like Connor Brown as an option. I'd have no reservations about a 3rd line of Frederic-Kampf-Brown going into next year. It's not a sexy HBK style 3rd line, but it's built to play the exact way Sullivan will want it to play and provides some really nice elements that the 3rd line didn't offer in the past.

I want their 3rd line to be a recreation of ZAR-Blueger-Tanev but with an upgrade on ZAR. I think Frederic-Kampf-Brown would be exactly that.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah one of Dubas' big strengths is doing a phenomenal job at filling out a front office, he did a really strong job at that in Toronto. I'm expecting to see him poach more and more guys from Toronto that he knows are good to fill out roles with the Penguins.

Yeah, that is the thing I am honestly the most excited about with Dubas here. Not because I'm a fan of executives or anything, but I think the organization has been rotting from the head down for a while and it needs a good housecleaning to be effective.

A well-run organization just provides a better on-ice product.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

@bigdaddyk88 Both the bottom 6 and top 6 could improve.

The top 6 has a lot of good elements. 4 out of 6 shouldn't be moved and 5 out of 6 can fill roles well. But they shouldn't run back every single part of it. It would benefit from diversifying the skillsets.

Adding a guy like Bertuzzi would accomplish that. Not much pushback or zestiness in the current iteration, and Zuck and Rust serve similar roles.

 

[Peat]

I think a 3rd line based around Frederic and Kampf wouldn't be any worse than a 3rd line centered around Blueger and Tanev in the past. You just have to get the right guy to play with them.

That's why I really like Connor Brown as an option. I'd have no reservations about a 3rd line of Frederic-Kampf-Brown going into next year. It's not a sexy HBK style 3rd line, but it's built to play the exact way Sullivan will want it to play and provides some really nice elements that the 3rd line didn't offer in the past.

I want their 3rd line to be a recreation of ZAR-Blueger-Tanev but with an upgrade on ZAR. I think Frederic-Kampf-Brown would be exactly that.

You want our third line to look like what was officially, and actually the few times we have a healthy and impressive looking roster in the playoffs, our fourth line?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You want our third line to look like what was officially, and actually the few times we have a healthy and impressive looking roster in the playoffs, our fourth line?

Yes because that "4th line" was a 3rd line quality line when it was together.

In the years ZAR-Blueger-Tanev was together, both Blueger and Tanev were performing at 3rd line levels. In the 2 years Tanev was here, Tanev had 41 points in 100 games (pace of 34 points) and Blueger had 44 points in 112 games (pace of 32 points). Those are both 3rd line quality, they just needed a better player than ZAR and it would have been a legitimate 3rd line. Get an actual 3rd liner with those two instead of ZAR and it would be an entirely viable 3rd line.

I would expect a Frederic-Kampf-Brown line to all produce in the 30-40 point range while thriving in a role that has them eating tough defensive minutes. It's not a sexy 3rd line, but it is absolutely a good 3rd line and is built exactly how Sullivan is going to use it.

 

[Andy99]

They missed the playoffs by 1 point last year after having massive goaltending and bottom-6 issues throughout the year.

They obviously shouldn't, but you could run back the same team next year and you probably make the playoffs.

You could argue that, outside of goaltending, they missed the POs precisely because of how Sullivan used the bottom six, not necessarily the players in it…with Sid and G getting 19-20 min at ages 36-37, and with our lack of finishing in the top six, theres a very good argument that just changing out bottom six players and the goalie (well goalie for sure to get more wins) isnt going to be enough…either we have to get a super good youngish top six player who can score 30-40 goals, or we have to move more, better offensive players into the bottom six and roll four lines, limiting the minutes and OZ times for Sid and G

 

[Empoleon8771]

You could argue that, outside of goaltending, they missed the POs precisely because of how Sullivan used the bottom six, not necessarily the players in it…with Sid and G getting 19-20 min at ages 36-37, and with our lack of finishing in the top six, theres a very good argument that just changing out bottom six players and the goalie (well goalie for sure to get more wins) isnt going to be enough…either we have to get a super good youngish top six player who can score 30-40 goals, or we have to move more, better offensive players into the bottom six and roll four lines, limiting the minutes and OZ times for Sid and G

No there's not?

You could argue that they need a young top-6 player who can score 30-40 goals if you want to be a legitimate contender, but this team absolutely makes the playoffs next year if they can just fix their bottom-6 and goaltending issues.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This team absolutely could have made the playoffs this year if they didn't keep forcing Jeff Carter as 3C for well past the point of no return.

It was honestly the worst possible way this season could have turned out. We should have either steered into the skid or just... adjusted and won ONE more game.

 

[Gurglesons]

Leafs fans on capfriendly are obsessed with trading us Brodie.

@Zirakzigil, he sucks on LD doesn't he?

If not, if we can get Brodie for a 3rd, I'd take that deal every day.

 

[Peat]

I am going to die on this hill because it is the correct hill -

The bottom six weren't shit because of the way Sully used them

Sully used them that way because they were shit (that and the blue line supporting them)

If you want the bottom six to have bottom deployments, get a better bottom six that doesn't just get caved in and which needs hidden from the offensive zone because they suck there

 

[Andy99]

No there's not?

You could argue that they need a young top-6 player who can score 30-40 goals if you want to be a legitimate contender, but this team absolutely makes the playoffs next year if they can just fix their bottom-6 and goaltending issues.

That’s fair…I guess I just don’t see the point of just making moves guaranteed to have you lose in the first round…if you’re trying to give Sid a last run before the rebuild, you really need to make moves to make them a legit contender

 

[Andy99]

I am going to die on this hill because it is the correct hill -

The bottom six weren't shit because of the way Sully used them

Sully used them that way because they were shit (that and the blue line supporting them)

If you want the bottom six to have bottom deployments, get a better bottom six that doesn't just get caved in and which needs hidden from the offensive zone because they suck there

Maybe, guess we’ll find out the chicken and egg issue next season, assuming Dubas reworks the bottom six…I personally think Sullivan caters to what Sid and G wants and they want an aggressive offensive team and for them to be leading the offensive charge, racking up the points…they did that…i think Dubas remakes the bottom six sith more energy players who are hard to play against precisely to get Sid and G more time in the OZ and playing less defense…if that happens, then Sullivan will be using the bottom six the same way he did last season, which is my point…that I don’t think he played the bottom six that way because he hated the players on it…

 

[Empoleon8771]

I am going to die on this hill because it is the correct hill -

The bottom six weren't shit because of the way Sully used them

Sully used them that way because they were shit (that and the blue line supporting them)

If you want the bottom six to have bottom deployments, get a better bottom six that doesn't just get caved in and which needs hidden from the offensive zone because they suck there

I don't agree with this, you want to be maximizing Crosby and Malkin by giving them as many offensive opportunities as possible, which by default gives the bottom-6 a ton of defensive opportunities. I'd rather build a pure defensive bottom-6 that can chip in decently offensively (like 30-35 points for L3 and 25-30 points for L4) and not get caved in the role, which allows Crosby and Malkin the prime offensive opportunities.

The Penguins have tried a ton of offensive guys in the bottom-6 that just didn't work out there at all. You want guys in the Blueger, Tanev or Gaudreau mold to be filling those bottom-6 roles. I don't think you want to go any further than say Rodrigues in terms of offensive vs defensive players for the bottom-6.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't agree with this, you want to be maximizing Crosby and Malkin by giving them as many offensive opportunities as possible, which by default gives the bottom-6 a ton of defensive opportunities. I'd rather build a pure defensive bottom-6 that can chip in decently offensively (like 30-35 points for L3 and 25-30 points for L4) and not get caved in the role, which allows Crosby and Malkin the prime offensive opportunities.

The Penguins have tried a ton of offensive guys in the bottom-6 that just didn't work out there at all. You want guys in the Blueger, Tanev or Gaudreau mold to be filling those bottom-6 roles. I don't think you want to go any further than say Rodrigues in terms of offensive vs defensive players for the bottom-6.

@Peat isn't saying offensive guys. He's saying playing that can dictate play in the bottom six minutes.

 

[Freeptop]

lol this team is going to look almost entirely the same

ready for another exciting season of watching jeff carter suck out loud!

Counterpoint: FSG didn't wipe out pretty much the entire front office just to run back the same roster.

That said, I'll be surprised if Carter isn't on the roster when the season starts, just because Hextall completely handcuffed the Pens with that contract.

Yeah one of Dubas' big strengths is doing a phenomenal job at filling out a front office, he did a really strong job at that in Toronto. I'm expecting to see him poach more and more guys from Toronto that he knows are good to fill out roles with the Penguins.

I believe I read that most were expecting Wendel Clark to become the new Penguins director of scouting but I haven't heard any update on that in a bit.



I don't think Vancouver would spring for this tbh

It's way too close to the Draft to make any changes to the scouting staff. Those sort of changes start happening in July, usually.

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Peat isn't saying offensive guys. He's saying playing that can dictate play in the bottom six minutes.

But that's what I was suggesting in here with guys like Tanev, Blueger, Brown and Kampf though.

You want guys who can thrive in a defense heavy role in the bottom-6. It's not Sullivan's usage of the bottom-6 that is a problem, it's that Sullivan doesn't have a good collection of players to use the bottom-6 like that.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Leafs fans on capfriendly are obsessed with trading us Brodie.

@Zirakzigil, he sucks on LD doesn't he?

If not, if we can get Brodie for a 3rd, I'd take that deal every day.

Hes by far better on his off side, Decent middle pairing defenseman at this point, not who Id want the Pens to pick up. Hes another skating guy who doesnt play physical. Our defense is already charmin soft as it is.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm with Empo. Kampf at 3.5m is ouchies. I don't think what's he done at Toronto merits a 2m bump from his last UFA deal. I'd like the player here but you're asking him to be a better player than he's been at 3.5m.

Also @Empoleon8771 that idea of putting Kampf and Granlund together is putting together one of the worst shooting lines in the NHL. That third guy would have to be one hell of a shooter to rescue them. I don't see that ending well, particularly for a 3rd line that most cost about 10m.

Every bottom six guy we sign in free agency is gonna be a barf contract. I feel like that's just how fa works. You generally gotta overpay in dollars or term to get the guy you want.

That's why I've been an advocate of giving DOC and Nylander a chance because I know that even if Dubas does find good players in free agency they're gonna cost more than I'd prefer.

If you want to plug every hole on this team you gotta find some bargains and it's hard to do that in FA. Easier perhaps via trade but we have limited assets.