Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Empoleon8771]

Kreider's had a poor 31 game run due to some back issues, which is the only reason he'd even be available. He also had 39 goals last year, which is one less than Guentzel's career high.

Wingers with his size, speed, and goal scoring are exceptionally rare, and his contract was considered a great one a few short months ago. Not to mention, he plays the type of game that wouldn't get neutered by Sully.

Considering his body of work vs. the small sample size of underperforming, I'd take the bet he'll be worth his contract the rest of the way, and then some.

And acquiring a soon to be 34 year old power forward with back issues severely impacting his play isn't a glaring red flag to you?

If Kreider was 27, this would be an entirely different discussion. But he's not, he's turning 34 later this season and has a playstyle that has historically fallen off a massive cliff very rapidly. It's not just a "poor 31 game run", he has been absolutely horrendous this year. His 5v5 production levels this year are even worse than what guys like Acciari and Carter had last year. Of the 388 forwards who have played in at least 200 minutes this year, Kreider ranks 379th in 5v5 points/60.

I'm not a complete no on acquiring him, but he's a guy that NY should be lucky if they give up without adding anything. The idea of trading actual assets for Kreider is a complete non-starter.

 

[Peat]

I think the real question here, given how Bylsma and Sullivan took forever to jettison, is what the f*** Mike Johnston did to get canned so quick. Did he steal Sid's parking spot? Use Mario's private toilet? Eat JR's general tso's? Because being a bad/stale coach doesn't seem like a fireable offense in these parts.

He made Sid look like he was done while aged 30.

 

[Turin]

He made Sid look like he was done while aged 30.

Even worse, 28

 

[Empoleon8771]

I still think people are missing the point when complaining that Nieto and Acciari are playing over Puljujarvi. In Sullivan's eyes, Puljujarvi is not competing with those two for spots, those two (or two similar players) have their spots locked in on L4 due to Sullivan's insistence on having PKers on his 4th line. Just like with Puustinen, the guys Puljujarvi is competing with for spots are guys like O'Connor, Beauvillier, Tomasino and Glass. That's a big reason why I'm asking "why is O'Connor still getting these chances", he's not producing nearly enough to warrant it. At least Beauvillier scores goals and Glass plays center, what is O'Connor offering?

Ultimately this team just has a lot of ick in its bottom-6, so it's hard to get too feisty about Puljujarvi. You could cut every guy in their bottom-6 outside of Lizotte and I wouldn't care even in the least. The only good bottom-6 guys they've had in their bottom-6 this year are Eller and Lizotte, and Eller isn't here anymore.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I still think people are missing the point when complaining that Nieto and Acciari are playing over Puljujarvi. In Sullivan's eyes, Puljujarvi is not competing with those two for spots, those two (or two similar players) have their spots locked in on L4 due to Sullivan's insistence on having PKers on his 4th line. Just like with Puustinen, the guys Puljujarvi is competing with for spots are guys like O'Connor, Beauvillier, Tomasino and Glass. That's a big reason why I'm asking "why is O'Connor still getting these chances", he's not producing nearly enough to warrant it. At least Beauvillier scores goals and Glass plays center, what is O'Connor offering?

Ultimately this team just has a lot of ick in its bottom-6, so it's hard to get too feisty about Puljujarvi. You could cut every guy in their bottom-6 outside of Lizotte and I wouldn't care even in the least. The only good bottom-6 guys they've had in their bottom-6 this year are Eller and Lizotte, and Eller isn't here anymore.

Understandable but how hard is it truly to throw JP out there on the PK? Don’t know enough of his game so assuming it’s simply because of his lack of defense.

Acciari and Nieto (I believe it was both of them but maybe it was just one) are among the slowest forwards in the NHL.

Is learning the PK truly that hard comparative to keeping these aging/slow/non producing 4th line plugs around?

I just hate the “they PK” argument to keeping non impactful players over youth.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And acquiring a soon to be 34 year old power forward with back issues severely impacting his play isn't a glaring red flag to you?

If Kreider was 27, this would be an entirely different discussion. But he's not, he's turning 34 later this season and has a playstyle that has historically fallen off a massive cliff very rapidly. It's not just a "poor 31 game run", he has been absolutely horrendous this year. His 5v5 production levels this year are even worse than what guys like Acciari and Carter had last year. Of the 388 forwards who have played in at least 200 minutes this year, Kreider ranks 379th in 5v5 points/60.

I'm not a complete no on acquiring him, but he's a guy that NY should be lucky if they give up without adding anything. The idea of trading actual assets for Kreider is a complete non-starter.

It's a variable for a calculated risk.

We aren't spending money on quality UFAs. We aren't moving high end assets. We aren't bad enough to acquire lottery talent in the draft. What other avenue is there to acquire talent?

We can keep thowing shit at the wall for Tomasinos and Glasses, but I'd roll the dice on an impact player whose value is at an all time low due to a small sample size with extenuating circumstances. Anyone we get is going to have some warts.

Kreider's historically very durable - only missed 3 games in the last 3 years. He's also scored more goals than any LW but Kaprizov over that span, including Ovy. And his production this year still has him on pace for 29 goals. Brings an awful lot we need that we simply wouldn't get anywhere else.

 

[Peat]

I still think people are missing the point when complaining that Nieto and Acciari are playing over Puljujarvi. In Sullivan's eyes, Puljujarvi is not competing with those two for spots, those two (or two similar players) have their spots locked in on L4 due to Sullivan's insistence on having PKers on his 4th line. Just like with Puustinen, the guys Puljujarvi is competing with for spots are guys like O'Connor, Beauvillier, Tomasino and Glass. That's a big reason why I'm asking "why is O'Connor still getting these chances", he's not producing nearly enough to warrant it. At least Beauvillier scores goals and Glass plays center, what is O'Connor offering?

Ultimately this team just has a lot of ick in its bottom-6, so it's hard to get too feisty about Puljujarvi. You could cut every guy in their bottom-6 outside of Lizotte and I wouldn't care even in the least. The only good bottom-6 guys they've had in their bottom-6 this year are Eller and Lizotte, and Eller isn't here anymore.

Poolparty had better possession, +/-. and p/60 than Eller. If Eller was good, why isn't Poolparty? It's not like he started hot and faded away either, 2 goals in his last 5 games.

Also Sully could absolutely run a Rust/DOC/Glass/Lizotte PK if he wanted with Sid/Hayes/Bunting as spares if he wanted.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Poolparty had better possession, +/-. and p/60 than Eller. If Eller was good, why isn't Poolparty? It's not like he started hot and faded away either, 2 goals in his last 5 games.

Because Eller has an entire career of being that caliber of player while Puljujarvi doesn't. I also contest that Puljujarvi didn't "start hot and faded away". He had 5 points in his first 6 games and then put up 3 points in his next 15 games.

Also Sully could absolutely run a Rust/DOC/Glass/Lizotte PK if he wanted with Sid/Hayes/Bunting as spares if he wanted.

But that's not what Sullivan does or has ever done. You can say it's dumb but the logic for playing Nieto and Acciari over Puljujarvi is based on Sullivan wanting established PKers on his 4th line.

 

[Peat]

Because Eller has an entire career of being that caliber of player while Puljujarvi doesn't.

Puljujarvi has better relative xGF and GF stats over the last three years as well as better 5v5 p/60. He spent 2/3rds of his last year in Edmonton away from McDavid and Drai with great results so that's not why his stats are better.

As such, I'd suggest this doesn't hold up. Puljujarvi has been posting better stats than Eller recently. He also has a history of being a useful bottom six player.

 

[SEALBound]

He was 6th in p/60 and 5th in xGF% on the team. He was one of very few forwards having a decent season in a frankly dogshit bottom six. I disagree about it being irrelevant and I wonder what the hell the story is here. If nothing else, I'd have thought "feed him minutes and flip him for picks" was a really obvious one. Although the fact he went to waivers suggests the NHL isn't falling over themselves to give him a go as a whole, which again makes me think what the hell is the story.

But was he having a good season? What does that even mean really? Unfortunately, we are at a juncture with this organization where there's a certain level of irrelevancy of where someone ranks on the xGF% list. It's not a good think that Puljujarvi is ranked 5th for us. That said, all that mattes is whether the team takes home the W or gets the L. If we are a legit contender and need to know very specific weak points to address, evaluating xGF% would make sense.

With him, we were 6-11-4. The last month without him, we've been better. Not saying it all hinges on him, because it doesn't, but let's be real - this isn't a huge loss. This isn't waiving Tolvanen or Fabbro here. This is our 14th forward.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

lol the pretzel logic

This isn't half as complicated as some of you are making it.

We can argue til we're blue in the face whether it "matters or not" - that's not entirely the point, is it?

 

[Gurglesons]

Puljujarvi has better relative xGF and GF stats over the last three years as well as better 5v5 p/60. He spent 2/3rds of his last year in Edmonton away from McDavid and Drai with great results so that's not why his stats are better.

As such, I'd suggest this doesn't hold up. Puljujarvi has been posting better stats than Eller recently. He also has a history of being a useful bottom six player.

He’s a depth forward from Europe. What did you expect?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Puljujarvi has better relative xGF and GF stats over the last three years as well as better 5v5 p/60. He spent 2/3rds of his last year in Edmonton away from McDavid and Drai with great results so that's not why his stats are better.

As such, I'd suggest this doesn't hold up. Puljujarvi has been posting better stats than Eller recently. He also has a history of being a useful bottom six player.

He's such a better player that he's been waived multiple times and only signed a $800k contract

Idk I feel like this is a pretty obvious example of how the advanced stats aren't painting a real picture. Eller is a good bottom-6 center on a legitimate contending team right now, and has been a good bottom-6 center on a contending team basically his entire career. Puljujarvi is a AAAA player in the category of guys like Nylander and Bemstrom that has had like 2 good seasons in the NHL. And those 2 good seasons were like 4 years ago.

Had Puljujarvi not put up a great pre-season this year, he would have been waived before the season started and no one would have even batted an eye.

 

[Ryder71]

But was he having a good season? What does that even mean really? Unfortunately, we are at a juncture with this organization where there's a certain level of irrelevancy of where someone ranks on the xGF% list. It's not a good think that Puljujarvi is ranked 5th for us. That said, all that mattes is whether the team takes home the W or gets the L. If we are a legit contender and need to know very specific weak points to address, evaluating xGF% would make sense.

With him, we were 6-11-4. The last month without him, we've been better. Not saying it all hinges on him, because it doesn't, but let's be real - this isn't a huge loss. This isn't waiving Tolvanen or Fabbro here. This is our 14th forward.

I doubt there's a correlation here regarding the improved record since JP's been a healthy scratch in anyway, but yes, that didn't help his cause. Which is why being upset about it as some here are clearly indicates some bizarre and unremarkable agenda.

 

[Pancakes]

I firmly believe the core wanted him fired so he was fired, just like the core doesn't want Sullivan to be fired so he's not getting fired.

I don't think Dubas cares what Letang, EK, or Malkin think, but Sid is a different story.

Like if Sid wanted a new coach but Malkin/Letang didn't, I think we'd have a new coach.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think Dubas cares what Letang, EK, or Malkin think, but Sid is a different story.

Like if Sid wanted a new coach but Malkin/Letang didn't, I think we'd have a new coach.

I tend to agree but I don't have any reason to think that the core is on different pages with Sullivan.

 

[Ryder71]

I don't think Dubas cares what Letang, EK, or Malkin think, but Sid is a different story.

Like if Sid wanted a new coach but Malkin/Letang didn't, I think we'd have a new coach.

Which is why rooting for this team to succeed this year only enables Sullivan all the more.

Seems as though there are quite a few talking out of both sides. If you want them to make the playoffs that inevitably means you want Sullivan around longer.

And make no mistake and as you alluded to, the CORE is the biggest problem. Sullivan is tethered to the core.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Wait a minute, are you holding out hope this team makes the playoffs?

To be fair the east is horrendous this year. Just have to catch Ottawa at this point.

 

[Ulf5]

I doubt there's a correlation here regarding the improved record since JP's been a healthy scratch in anyway, but yes, that didn't help his cause. Which is why being upset about it as some here are clearly indicates some bizarre and unremarkable agenda.

The reason people are mildly upset isn't that hard to understand. Puljujarvi isn't much, everyone is well aware of that fact. The issue is Nieto and the ilk. They also are nothing. But they've reached the plateau of their nothingness. There's still a slim chance, infinitesimal as it may be, that Puljujarvi could become something more than nothing.
So logic dictates the wise move is to dump Nieto, give JP some pt. If it fails, both are easily replaceable.

 

[Ryder71]

To be fair the east is horrendous this year. Just have to catch Ottawa at this point.

I'm not saying they will or won't. I think the next couple of weeks will tell us though. All I'm suggesting is that would not help this team in the long run. You might not be tired of this on ice product but many are. I welcome change even if it means some lean years. We're just delaying the inevitable. Hopefully this road trip tells us more.

 

[Ryder71]

So logic dictates the wise move is to dump Nieto, give JP some pt. If it fails, both are easily replaceable.

But since we know that won't happen why does it keep getting brought up? You're talking about a relatively innocuous circumstance where by this nowhere team still goes nowhere. And honestly, the PK has been much better. But this team is what it is. Why are so many consumed by curtain jerkers on a mediocre team?

And remember, IF this team makes the playoffs, which I still doubt, it only helps Sullivans cause. Is that what you guys want?

 

[Ryder71]

I picked a lane prior to the season. I want the team to fail in the short term to help promote change then success in the long run. I'm not changing that mindset.

If however you pick a lane where by your pushing for a last ditch playoff position you're rooting for Sullivan whether you admit it or not. Their success becomes his success. And if you cannot see that then you better reexamine that opinion.

Considering their abysmal start, IF they make the playoffs, Sullivan would be closer to winning the Jack Adams than he would to be fired. You think about that.

 

[Pancakes]

Which is why rooting for this team to succeed this year only enables Sullivan all the more.

Seems as though there are quite a few talking out of both sides. If you want them to make the playoffs that inevitably means you want Sullivan around longer.

And make no mistake and as you alluded to, the CORE is the biggest problem. Sullivan is tethered to the core.

I don't think them making the playoffs or not has any bearing on Sullivan's status here. I think Sullivan is here for the remainder of his contract.

I'd like to see them make the playoffs even though they'd probably get killed. It'd be entertaining. The tank will happen soon anyways. No need for me to rush it.

What I don't want is for them to make a run at a playoff spot only to fall just short and pick 14th again. I'd rather they either get that last spot or totally collapse and get a high pick. Unfortunately them just barely missing seems like the most likely outcome.

 

[Andy99]

Oh man…lol

 

[Ryder71]

I don't think them making the playoffs or not has any bearing on Sullivan's status here. I think Sullivan is here for the remainder of his contract.

I'd like to see them make the playoffs even though they'd probably get killed. It'd be entertaining. The tank will happen soon anyways. No need for me to rush it.

What I don't want is for them to make a run at a playoff spot only to fall just short and pick 14th again. I'd rather they either get that last spot or totally collapse and get a high pick. Unfortunately them just barely missing seems like the most likely outcome.

If they miss the playoffs three straight seasons they'll be more pressure put on Sullivan. Also, maybe another head coaching job would appeal to him more and he'd skip town. Who wants to coach a team that is getting worse when better options would be available? He'd have the ability to find a much better team to coach. That would also possibly lead to Geno going back home. Three straight playoff misses, yeah, I think that would help the long term cause actually.

If you want to see them make the playoffs then don't complain about Sullivan. That wouldn't make sense. You picked your lane, stick to it.