Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Gurglesons]

I think that's a valid argument but they're basically the same thing in value.

Well Koivunen and Pono are “top five prospects in the Canes pool” despite being ranked outside of the top five by most publications at the time…

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well Koivunen and Pono are “top five prospects in the Canes pool” despite being ranked outside of the top five by most publications at the time…

It's almost like Koivunen and Ponomarev were both 2nd round prospects valued at about 2nd rounders, and 3 mid 2nds (which is what Ponomarev, Koivunen and pick #44 is) is roughly equal to a late 1st and a mid 2nd (which is what Ponomarev/Koivunen and pick #27 is)

 

[Honour Over Glory]

What was the other deal or team that was really interested?

Canucks, Rangers, and Hurricanes.

Rangers deal we mostly know, they didn’t want to give up the 1st and Kakko. Canucks couldn’t really afford Guentzel with their cap and likely wanted retention, I think there was an issue for one of the players they didn’t want to give up as well. I don’t get this need NOW to bitch and moan about that trade. What because the Penguins got Bunting? A career 50pt player that is under 30 isn’t a bad get, the issue here is that Sullivan isn’t going to maximize any of this and that part being Dubas’ fault, I 100% get. To keep a dipshit coach that will likely make this trade look terrible, is well within the realm of making this a bad trade. I think the Canucks’ deal was something around Kuzmenko, the 1st, and a prospect they didn’t want to give up. Kuzmenko would have been destroyed under Sullivan.

But I also get the sense that most GM’s knew Jake’s camp wanted to test the market and wasn’t going to sign until the off season so that was a massive risk. Horvat signed less than a week after getting to the Islanders, that was a Cap move and also internal leadership issues that the Canucks can say wasn’t an issue but apparently was with players siding with Miller and Horvat and splitting the room, reportedly. Horvat’s cap was also going to make it harder for them to keep a lot of others so they moved him and the Isles gave up more to get him.

Lindholm? Typical JR move, giving up too much for a rental but he made up for it the year before by moving Horvat for a 1st and a mediocre prospect, then turned that mediocre trade into a better one by getting Hronek. Dubas getting a trio of solid prospects, a top 6 winger, and a pick isn’t bad business for a player that was never going to sign until he was a free agent and got to test the market. The Pens got a conditional 1st and another pick, it’s too bad that first didn’t convert.

 

[Gurglesons]

When you say the return is a top six winger, a bunch of solid prospects and a 2nd, sure it looks like a solid trade.

I just have a very tough time believing that is the return.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's almost like Koivunen and Ponomarev were both 2nd round prospects valued at about 2nd rounders, and 3 mid 2nds (which is what Ponomarev, Koivunen and pick #44 is) is roughly equal to a late 1st and a mid 2nd (which is what Ponomarev/Koivunen and pick #27 is)

I still don’t hate this deal as much as others seem to right now.

Cruz Lucius, Vasily Ponomarev, Ville Koivunen, the 2nd that turned into Harrison Brunicke, and Michael Bunting.

That is a pretty decent return for a player that made it harder to get a better return because he was vocal about wanting to test the market and not negotiate an extension.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What was the other deal or team that was really interested?

Canucks, Rangers, and Hurricanes.

Rangers deal we mostly know, they didn’t want to give up the 1st and Kakko. Canucks couldn’t really afford Guentzel with their cap and likely wanted retention, I think there was an issue for one of the players they didn’t want to give up as well. I don’t get this need NOW to bitch and moan about that trade. What because the Penguins got Bunting? A career 50pt player that is under 30 isn’t a bad get, the issue here is that Sullivan isn’t going to maximize any of this and that part being Dubas’ fault, I 100% get. To keep a dipshit coach that will likely make this trade look terrible, is well within the realm of making this a bad trade. I think the Canucks’ deal was something around Kuzmenko, the 1st, and a prospect they didn’t want to give up. Kuzmenko would have been destroyed under Sullivan.

But I also get the sense that most GM’s knew Jake’s camp wanted to test the market and wasn’t going to sign until the off season so that was a massive risk. Horvat signed less than a week after getting to the Islanders, that was a Cap move and also internal leadership issues that the Canucks can say wasn’t an issue but apparently was with players siding with Miller and Horvat and splitting the room, reportedly. Horvat’s cap was also going to make it harder for them to keep a lot of others so they moved him and the Isles gave up more to get him.

Lindholm? Typical JR move, giving up too much for a rental but he made up for it the year before by moving Horvat for a 1st and a mediocre prospect, then turned that mediocre trade into a better one by getting Hronek. Dubas getting a trio of solid prospects, a top 6 winger, and a pick isn’t bad business for a player that was never going to sign until he was a free agent and got to test the market. The Pens got a conditional 1st and another pick, it’s too bad that first didn’t convert.

The Canucks were the most interested team in Guentzel, but they didn't have a 1st or 2nd this year and weren't willing to trade Lekkerimaki for Guentzel. What did they have to offer? At best you were looking at something like Podkolzin (who was dumped for a 4th in the off-season), Raty and a 2025 1st, which isn't better than what the Penguins got.

There was a rumor that the Rangers offered Othmann for Guentzel, but without knowing what was on top of that, it's hard to say. Beyond that, there didn't seem to be a massive market for Guentzel.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

When you say the return is a top six winger, a bunch of solid prospects and a 2nd, sure it looks like a solid trade.

I just have a very tough time believing that is the return.

Because Mike Sullivan can’t even use a player like Puustinen properly let alone anyone else that is a young talented player, so yeah it may not look good because this coach will prioritize veterans over using any youth that is ready or deserves a longer look and better opportunity. I think another thing to remember is Lucius and McGroarty have played together before during Juniors (so has the other Lucius brother) so that might be a solid underrated add when he turns pro.

The Canucks were the most interested team in Guentzel, but they didn't have a 1st or 2nd this year and weren't willing to trade Lekkerimaki for Guentzel. What did they have to offer? At best you were looking at something like Podkolzin (who was dumped for a 4th in the off-season), Raty and a 2025 1st, which isn't better than what the Penguins got.

There was a rumor that the Rangers offered Othmann for Guentzel, but without knowing what was on top of that, it's hard to say. Beyond that, there didn't seem to be a massive market for Guentzel.

Yeah figured it was something like that, like I said, I am not mad about the deal at all. I think some blokes thought that Dubas should have gotten more, but I think Jake’s camp made that a near impossibility given his desire to test the market and not negotiate in season. The reason a player like Horvat brought back something more is because he was open to an extension the whole time and the Isles knew that and likely had the opportunity to discuss that before the deal as he was signed a few days after.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because Mike Sullivan can’t even use a player like Puustinen properly let alone anyone else that is a young talented player, so yeah it may not look good because this coach will prioritize veterans over using any youth that is ready or deserves a longer look and better opportunity. I think another thing to remember is Lucius and McGroarty have played together before during Juniors (so has the other Lucius brother) so that might be a solid underrated add when he turns pro.


Yeah figured it was something like that, like I said, I am not mad about the deal at all. I think some blokes thought that Dubas should have gotten more, but I think Jake’s camp made that a near impossibility given his desire to test the market and not negotiate in season. The reason a player like Horvat brought back something more is because he was open to an extension the whole time and the Isles knew that and likely had the opportunity to discuss that before the deal as he was signed a few days after.

I’ll be shocked if any of the prospects we got outside of Pono play more than 200 nhl games. Pono’s upside is a 4th liner.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

You all need to take a break.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I’ll be shocked if any of the prospects we got outside of Pono play more than 200 nhl games. Pono’s upside is a 4th liner.

If Sullivan is our coach, I'll be surprised if any of the lads, including McGroarty, plays 200 NHL games.

Sullivan will just press Dubas to add more veterans next summer - Just look up any player from the Boston area or played for BU or BC. The best hope these players have is to be waived and claimed.

 

[eXile3]

I still don’t hate this deal as much as others seem to right now.

Cruz Lucius, Vasily Ponomarev, Ville Koivunen, the 2nd that turned into Harrison Brunicke, and Michael Bunting.

That is a pretty decent return for a player that made it harder to get a better return because he was vocal about wanting to test the market and not negotiate an extension.

People just going to keep repeating that lie.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

People just going to keep repeating that lie.

What lie? That Jake was going to always test the market?

It's hilarious blokes here think he was always going to sign. He saw where the team was headed and was likely going to ask even more to stay. Whatever bullshit his camp is feeding everyone is typical sympathy horse shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

What lie? That Jake was going to always test the market?

It's hilarious blokes here think he was always going to sign. He saw where the team was headed and was likely going to ask even more to stay. Whatever bullshit his camp is feeding everyone is typical sympathy horse shit.

He literally came out and said it again that he wanted to sign here in Tampa camp.

 

[Gurglesons]

Puustinen on the PP. So good.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He literally came out and said it again that he wanted to sign here in Tampa camp.

Who
Gives
A
f***

Go weep into your crusty Jake Shake Cups.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

As we all know, players are always 100% honest and candid in interviews.

 

[Gurglesons]

As we all know, players are always 100% honest and candid in interviews.

What does Jake have to gain by saying he told his agent to make a deal and he thought he was going to be in Pittsburgh forever?

I didn’t want him to be re-signed so I’m not sure why we have to act like he is lying.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Puustinen on the PP. So good.

yes

 

[chethejet]

Dubas did the best deal he could and the draft puck RD looks like a keeper. Ponomarev will be on the Pens this year. Nice Right shot prospect in Lucius as well. This is real depth and Dubas has really changed the prospect pool and with multi picks coming in the next couple plus Dubas will move players for picks/prospects as well.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

What does Jake have to gain by saying he told his agent to make a deal and he thought he was going to be in Pittsburgh forever?

I didn’t want him to be re-signed so I’m not sure why we have to act like he is lying.

Why does any player say stuff like "I loved my time in X, great city, great fans, would've loved to stick around but it didn't work out" after they walked in FA and signed some huge deal elsewhere?

If Jake wanted to be on the Pens, he had to take a steep discount. He didn't want to, nor should he have, as this is his only shot at a huge deal before retirement. It's a business, plain and simple, imo. There's never been a reason to take a player, coach, or GM at face value for what they say in interviews. /shrug

 

[Gurglesons]

Why does any player say stuff like "I loved my time in X, great city, great fans, would've loved to stick around but it didn't work out" after they walked in FA and signed some huge deal elsewhere?

If Jake wanted to be on the Pens, he had to take a steep discount. He didn't want to, nor should he have, as this is his only shot at a huge deal before retirement. It's a business, plain and simple, imo. There's never been a reason to take a player, coach, or GM at face value for what they say in interviews. /shrug

That isn’t what he said though.

One year ago, he made it clear to his agent, Ben Hankinson, and Penguins president of hockey operations/general manager Kyle Dubas where he wanted to play in the second half of his career.

“Staying in Pittsburgh was always the goal,” he said. “That’s very fair to say. I told Hank at the beginning of last year, ‘Let’s get something done. This is where I want to be.'”

The deal never happened, and ultimately, Dubas traded him to Carolina.

“You realize that it’s a business really fast,” Guentzel said.

Jake was generally shocked. Which is a feather in Dubas' cap IMO. He resisted the urge to sign him and did what was right for the franchise. The issue was the return was utter shit.

Dubas did the best deal he could and the draft puck RD looks like a keeper. Ponomarev will be on the Pens this year. Nice Right shot prospect in Lucius as well. This is real depth and Dubas has really changed the prospect pool and with multi picks coming in the next couple plus Dubas will move players for picks/prospects as well.

Ponomarev has been an absolute ghost in the pre-season.

We'll see how Koivunen goes tomorrow.

I have little hope for either of them tbh.

Brunicke panning out could save the trade.

 

[PensandCaps]

Vancouver got a better return for Horvat. That's a joke.

They traded him with an extension in place. Guentzel was always going to test FA

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That isn’t what he said though.



Jake was generally shocked. Which is a feather in Dubas' cap IMO. He resisted the urge to sign him and did what was right for the franchise. The issue was the return was utter shit.



Ponomarev has been an absolute ghost in the pre-season.

We'll see how Koivunen goes tomorrow.

I have little hope for either of them tbh.

Brunicke panning out could save the trade.

Yeah, Jake was "shocked" lmao. I still don't give a shit what Jake or Dubas say about the situation publicly tbh. f*** 'em both. They'll both wax poetic about how difficult the situation was and how sad it made everyone, but it worked out best for each party. The team didn't hand a 30 year old an insane contract as the franchise circles the drain before a rebuild, and said 30 year old got his colossal pay day, gets to play for a team with a bit of a window left, and alongside one of the best players in the league in Kuch.

Dubas probably said "Here's our offer, this is what we're comfortable with term/AAV-wise." Jake's camp obviously didn't accept, and maybe even got offended by the offer, so he shifted to not entertaining extension discussions throughout the year, whether here or with his new team. Oh well. Wish Dubas would've gotten a better return but for a dude who was adamant about hitting FA I guess that's that.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Guentzel gets half his salary at no state income tax in Tampa on a better team. And lives in Florida during the winter.

Pens don’t pay a 30 year old $72M plus and weaponized the cap space properly already. Trade wise looks like they may have gotten a nice defender and we will see what happens with the F prospects.

Agent got a nice fee

Win-win for all parties.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

If Jake wanted to be on the Pens, he had to take a steep discount. He didn't want to, nor should he have, as this is his only shot at a huge deal before retirement.

It starts and ends here, imo. Not sure what else there is to be discussed.