Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Pancakes]

I don't think this team is worse than the Ducks, Flyers, Sharks, or Hawks. Possibly not the Jackets as well.

But I could see them finishing around 5th worst which would give around 10% odds at the #1 pick.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Thank you for being rational.

Those saying that MS did nothing during those Cup runs are out to lunch. Skewer him for what he’s done over the past 5 years, but Sullivan’s tactics were on full display for those Cups.


- Can’t remember which playoffs it was, but he dummied Trotz twice in a series by double shifting Sid at the end of a period. Sully was on the road and he snuck Sid on, which he ended up scoring a goal.
- Same situation with Schultz, but the other way around. Everyone knew Schultz was a very limited defender and Sully deployed him in favorable places. I was at the playoff game in 2017 where we iced the puck a billion times (believe it was Game 5) and I witnessed this maneuver 1st hand. If there was a matchup after puck drop that Sully didn’t like (mostly Schultz going up against Ovi), Schultz would sprint to the bench.
- Sullivan should also get credit for the goalie carousel that was occurring due to Murray’s injuries. Remember that Murray didn’t get all 16 wins in either Cup run. Sullivan chose the right goalie each time.

I noticed in the 2018 series vs the Caps that Sullivan no longer kept doing points 1 and 2 above. That’s when I started to become concerned about him resting on his laurels. I was willing to offer some grace as the Caps were a good team that year and you can understand the fatigue.
But when he did nothing again vs the Islanders in 2019 is when I started calling for his head. Check my post history…I feel like I was 1 of the first people pointing this stuff out. So it’s been a frustrating 5 years for me. I cannot stand this dude.

So why did he change so radically, completely, and quickly and also forget how to coach in the remaining five years in between?

Like did he get kicked in the head by a Pygmy goat or something?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If this team continues to suck dong I don't see how you can justify not blowing up the roster, at least to the extent you can.

That being said, they also only have 1 retention slot left and you know you'll need one for Karlsson, so I'm not even sure how much this team can get blown up. Can you even trade Rust and Rakell with 4 years at $5 million left?

 

[HandshakeLine]

You could at least try, which is more than we’ve done in deadlines past.

If we’re not asking Rust to waive this year, it’s malpractice at best.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If this team continues to suck dong I don't see how you can justify not blowing up the roster, at least to the extent you can.

That being said, they also only have 1 retention slot left and you know you'll need one for Karlsson, so I'm not even sure how much this team can get blown up. Can you even trade Rust and Rakell with 4 years at $5 million left?

Maybe but not for anything that you'd really want or could hang your hat on as "rebuilding" IMO.

Could be wrong. But they are both (predictably) undesirable contracts. Though not quite toxic.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe but not for anything that you'd really want or could hang your hat on as "rebuilding" IMO.

Could be wrong. But they are both (predictably) undesirable contracts. Though not quite toxic.

I would absolutely move them and take back a terrible contract to get more assets, but I think that's really the only option they have.

Rust to Detroit for Copp++ seems like an option to pursue.

 

[Sideline]

I would absolutely move them and take back a terrible contract to get more assets, but I think that's really the only option they have.

Rust to Detroit for Copp++ seems like an option to pursue.

I was thinking Rust for Husso+, but it's the same idea. Detroit is a team on the way up that could benefit from a Rust type.

 

[Pancakes]

If this team continues to suck dong I don't see how you can justify not blowing up the roster, at least to the extent you can.

That being said, they also only have 1 retention slot left and you know you'll need one for Karlsson, so I'm not even sure how much this team can get blown up. Can you even trade Rust and Rakell with 4 years at $5 million left?

They should trade every single UFA at the trade deadline with the possible exception of DOC. DOC is worth keeping around as he's still reasonably young. Even him I would move depending on the return though and also depending on whether he's interested in staying.

As far as EK goes, you absolutely try to move him if you can. Sid/Geno/Letang get to stay unless they want out. I would move Rust but I don't think Sid would be okay with it so it probably won't happen. Rakell should definitely be dealt while he has any value at all left. He's had a good season and teams might actually be interested now.

Clear out a ton of cap space and take a big swing at Marner if he's available this summer. Pray like hell you get a top 5 pick or even win the lottery and getting a guy who can play next year. Hope that McGroarty is ready next year, and that some of the other bottom six prospects are ready.

There's a scenario where the Pens can actually be competitive for one of the final playoff spots next year but would require a big sell at the TDL and some draft luck as well as prospects being ready to go next year.

Unfortunately the more likely reality is the Pens have no shot at Marner, won't trade EK (or can't), won't fire Sullivan, and won't win the draft lottery and will get a good prospect but someone who won't be ready for 2-3 more years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They should trade every single UFA at the trade deadline with the possible exception of DOC. DOC is worth keeping around as he's still reasonably young. Even him I would move depending on the return though and also depending on whether he's interested in staying.

As far as EK goes, you absolutely try to move him if you can. Sid/Geno/Letang get to stay unless they want out. I would move Rust but I don't think Sid would be okay with it so it probably won't happen. Rakell should definitely be dealt while he has any value at all left. He's had a good season and teams might actually be interested now.

Clear out a ton of cap space and take a big swing at Marner if he's available this summer. Pray like hell you get a top 5 pick or even win the lottery and getting a guy who can play next year. Hope that McGroarty is ready next year, and that some of the other bottom six prospects are ready.

There's a scenario where the Pens can actually be competitive for one of the final playoff spots next year but would require a big sell at the TDL and some draft luck as well as prospects being ready to go next year.

Unfortunately the more likely reality is the Pens have no shot at Marner, won't trade EK (or can't), won't fire Sullivan, and won't win the draft lottery and will get a good prospect but someone who won't be ready for 2-3 more years.

Nah you absolutely trade O'Connor as well. Simply no reason to keep him. You'd get a nice return for him as a rental and you can go in UFA and hand out a 1 year deal for a guy to re-sign him.

Trading all of the UFAs is obvious, but they should really target even more than that. I'm just skeptical how much more you can realistically do, just because of how many of the contracts are bad.

I was thinking Rust for Husso+, but it's the same idea. Detroit is a team on the way up that could benefit from a Rust type.

I don't think Detroit goes for that due to the lack of term on Husso's deal. I think they'd want to give up someone with 2-3 years left.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think you even trade DOC. He has more value to anyone else than us, especially if we’re out of playoff position.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I feel a bit like @Andy99 here but Yohe was on some podcast yesterday and said that Sid doesnt want Sullivan fired and FSG loves him. He doesnt think Sullivan is getting fired no matter how bad the season gets.

I have have been trying to look for any inkling of Sullivan being on the hot seat but I cant find anything. Sullivan is gonna be here until Sid retires.

Sid has lived long enough to see himself become the villain

 

[Sideline]

Nah you absolutely trade O'Connor as well. Simply no reason to keep him. You'd get a nice return for him as a rental and you can go in UFA and hand out a 1 year deal for a guy to re-sign him.

Trading all of the UFAs is obvious, but they should really target even more than that. I'm just skeptical how much more you can realistically do, just because of how many of the contracts are bad.



I don't think Detroit goes for that due to the lack of term on Husso's deal. I think they'd want to give up someone with 2-3 years left.

I don't think the bad contacts are really that big of a problem if you are committed to a rebuild. You can always find a worse contract to take back turn turn a guy like Rakell or Rust into a really appealing asset.

Who cares if you get back a terrible player? The goal of tanking is to lose games.

 

[Pancakes]

Nah you absolutely trade O'Connor as well. Simply no reason to keep him. You'd get a nice return for him as a rental and you can go in UFA and hand out a 1 year deal for a guy to re-sign him.

I think you even trade DOC. He has more value to anyone else than us, especially if we’re out of playoff position.

Depends on the return. If they can get like...a second for him, sure. Less than that and I feel like he'd be more valuable to keep (assuming he'd re-sign).

Trading all of the UFAs is obvious, but they should really target even more than that. I'm just skeptical how much more you can realistically do, just because of how many of the contracts are bad.

I just don't see Rust as being likely to be dealt not only because of his contract/nmc but also because I don't think they'd be willing to alienate Sid by trading his other winger.

Rakell seems like a maybe given he's repaired his value so far by having a strong start to the season. But even him...he's signed for so friggin long. That might be a hard sell.

Bunting has torpedoed his value so far this season so unless he starts playing well there's probably no way he's dealt as anything more than a cap dump and even then I doubt a team would want him.

Hayes is interesting because he actually looks good but I'm not sure many teams are willing to take a risk on the extra year that he has.

EK should be tradeable still but it might be hard to do that in season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tbh what I'd be going for is Rust for Chiarot++. Both because Chiarot sucks and has negative value while also Chiarot actually does kinda fill a need for this team. He's also the type of defenseman that teams love at the deadline if they're playing well, so it could be a calculated gamble to make.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Why are we committed to keeping every store brand Bob Errey on this roster just because we drafted or developed them?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

So why did he change so radically, completely, and quickly and also forget how to coach in the remaining five years in between?

Like did he get kicked in the head by a Pygmy goat or something?

Oh, you're treading into my bailiwick, Organizational Development stuff.

Lots of research on this and I'll try to not write a novel:

1. It's human nature to dial down the intensity once you get something you really want. Think about that girl you see and want to marry. You spend time thinking about her day and night and the courtship is intense where you buy gifts and stuff like that. After 5 years of marriage, do we do the same things and think about your spouse so intently? I love my wife with all my soul, but I have work to do and can't think about her all the time.

2. Doing the hard work that got you to where you want to be makes you wonder "did I have to work so damn hard?". "Can I be more efficient?". "When I climbed Mt Everest successfully last time, could I take an easier route?" Those are good questions to ask bc we should be thinking of ways to work smarter/efficient, but sometimes it's overcomplicated because the core of your success was the HARD WORK. And it's almost impossible to go 100% all the damn time. Think about a test you busted your ass on and you got an A. Depending on how that person is wired, they might put in the exact same work or they might conclude they don't want to go through that grind again and are happy with a B with less work.

3. Arrogance. We all have an ego. When you get to this level, you have to have a large one. You begin to assume your failures are due to other people/the people you manage. This leads to lack of introspection because "well I was successful in the past, so I can't be the problem"

That's the short version why people don't do the same things/effort that got them success.

Bill Parcells talks a bit about some of this stuff in his book. He mentioned the challenges he faced when he won early in his career. Everything from expectations by the media, to his own coaches to players

Amazon.com

 

[Pancakes]

Why are we committed to keeping every store brand Bob Errey on this roster just because we drafted or developed them?

Is that directed at me good sir?

My answer to that with DOC would be that this team is keeping Sidney Crosby around ergo still theoretically trying to make the playoffs again at some point in the remainder of his career. Given that goal, it's probably not the best idea to trade every single decent player they have. Plus, DOC is still young. Relatively anyhow.

If the return is there though or there's any concerns about being able to re-sign him, then might as well.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Is that directed at me good sir?

My answer to that with DOC would be that this team is keeping Sidney Crosby around ergo still theoretically trying to make the playoffs again at some point in the remainder of his career. Given that goal, it's probably not the best idea to trade every single decent player they have. Plus, DOC is still young. Relatively anyhow.

If the return is there though or there's any concerns about being able to re-sign him, then might as well.

Haha he means Rust I think.

I don't see why everyone (Crosby evidently included) sees Rust as so essential. He's OK but he's JUST OK and seemingly either always injured or just coming off of one. Not his fault but it's a factor. Rust hasn't moved the needle for years. Hey look at it this way... if the team fails to keep a decent wing next to Sid then he and Malkin will have even more they can relate to each other about!

Or shit at this rate they'll BE each other's only decent player lol

 

[Sideline]

Is that directed at me good sir?

My answer to that with DOC would be that this team is keeping Sidney Crosby around ergo still theoretically trying to make the playoffs again at some point in the remainder of his career. Given that goal, it's probably not the best idea to trade every single decent player they have. Plus, DOC is still young. Relatively anyhow.

If the return is there though or there's any concerns about being able to re-sign him, then might as well.

DOC feels very much like one of those 3rd/4th liners that gets a 3 year deal and immediately starts to slack off because he finally has job security. See Acciari, Noel.

 

[Pancakes]

Haha he means Rust I think.

I don't see why everyone (Crosby evidently included) sees Rust as so essential. He's OK but he's JUST OK and seemingly either always injured or just coming off of one. Not his fault but it's a factor. Rust hasn't moved the needle for years. Hey look at it this way... if the team fails to keep a decent wing next to Sid then he and Malkin will have even more they can relate to each other about!

Or shit at this rate they'll BE each other's only decent player lol

I absolutely would trade Rust if it were up to me but I have a feeling that Dubas probably isn't going to want to make Crosby even more depressed by trading his other pal. And Dubas also has an easy excuse not to even try to move Rust since Rust has the nmc.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I absolutely would trade Rust if it were up to me but I have a feeling that Dubas probably isn't going to want to make Crosby even more depressed by trading his other pal. And Dubas also has an easy excuse not to even try to move Rust since Rust has the nmc.

I mean I'm not trying to be cold here... I love Sid... but he's far from dumb and had to know what he was signing up for. Believe me I wish it were otherwise... were it me I'd still be ACTUALLY trying to compete. But they aren't doing that and Crosby surely understands that.

Dubas would have more leeway to make some moves based on his heart and not his brain if he hadn't ALREADY dug himself such a hole.

Maybe fire the coach and see what happens? Oh that's right... he "isn't allowed." Heck of a GM we have.

 

[Pancakes]

DOC feels very much like one of those 3rd/4th liners that gets a 3 year deal and immediately starts to slack off because he finally has job security. See Acciari, Noel.

Maybe. He's still young so I'd have hope that we'd get a few good years out of him.

I mean I'm not trying to be cold here... I love Sid... but he's far from dumb and had to know what he was signing up for.

Dubas would have more leeway to make some moves based on his heart and not his brain if he hadn't ALREADY dug himself such a hole.

Maybe fire the coach and see what happens? Oh that's right... he "isn't allowed." Heck of a GM we have.

It is fascinating to wonder how ugly it's going to get here over the next while with Sullivan and the Pens and if that changes anyone on the Pens' thinking.

Does Sid want to ride it out if we suck this bad? I'm sure he was 100% for staying but now that reality is staring him in the face with how bad the Pens are...

Does Sullivan want to stay, or does Dubas want to keep him? Does FSG? I get that they love Sullivan but how much losing are they willing to take? Is being a bottom 5 team with Sidney Crosby still on the roster not enough for them to want to change something?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Does Sullivan want to stay, or does Dubas want to keep him? Does FSG? I get that they love Sullivan but how much losing are they willing to take? Is being a bottom 5 team with Sidney Crosby still on the roster not enough for them to want to change something?

They are going to have to do something soon unless they are cool with just straight up flushing millions down the shitter.

Today's game features MAF playing in Pittsburgh for the last time and AFAIK you can still get tickets right now. That would have been unthinkable just a few short years ago.

But hey... can you REALLY put a price on Boston Buddies? We should be happy they get their own little country club to like... talk about... uh... chowder and Tom Brady IDFK.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think there's much of a difference between being what the team's been this year versus being what the team's been the past two seasons, as far as revenue for ownership goes. I'm sure Investor Team Bravo™ has a ton of accountants and advisors so they knew just how meager the cashflow would be when they tossed a billion at a team teetering on the edge of like a decade of dwindling attendance, the departure of two legends via retirement, and no playoffs.

I really don't think they give too much of a shit about anything other than keeping Sid around, and they believe Sullivan is a genuine legend as far as coaches go.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think there's much of a difference between being what the team's been this year versus being what the team's been the past two seasons, as far as revenue for ownership goes. I'm sure Investor Team Bravo™ has a ton of accountants and advisors so they knew just how meager the cashflow would be when they tossed a billion at a team teetering on the edge of like a decade of dwindling attendance, the departure of two legends via retirement, and no playoffs.

I really don't think they give too much of a shit about anything other than keeping Sid around, and they believe Sullivan is a genuine legend as far as coaches go.

A lot of this rings true or at least likely.

But what dipshit jabroni morons consider a flippin' COACH as a franchise crown jewel and a legitimate reason to invest?

Boy I bet those Mike Sullivan jersey sales are just BURIN' up the card readers!