Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Buddy Bizarre]

I dunno, I think Sullivan played a big part in those cups. He pushed the right buttons back then and made the right lineup decisions and had the team playing in a way that suited their strengths. Bylsma was the same way in 09.

I know everyone hates Sullivan right now and rightfully so but he was good once upon a time.

The issue is like Bylsma he failed to adapt to an evolving league and only seems to know one way to have success. When that way no longer works, he's out of ideas.

Thank you for being rational.

Those saying that MS did nothing during those Cup runs are out to lunch. Skewer him for what he’s done over the past 5 years, but Sullivan’s tactics were on full display for those Cups.


- Can’t remember which playoffs it was, but he dummied Trotz twice in a series by double shifting Sid at the end of a period. Sully was on the road and he snuck Sid on, which he ended up scoring a goal.
- Same situation with Schultz, but the other way around. Everyone knew Schultz was a very limited defender and Sully deployed him in favorable places. I was at the playoff game in 2017 where we iced the puck a billion times (believe it was Game 5) and I witnessed this maneuver 1st hand. If there was a matchup after puck drop that Sully didn’t like (mostly Schultz going up against Ovi), Schultz would sprint to the bench.
- Sullivan should also get credit for the goalie carousel that was occurring due to Murray’s injuries. Remember that Murray didn’t get all 16 wins in either Cup run. Sullivan chose the right goalie each time.

I noticed in the 2018 series vs the Caps that Sullivan no longer kept doing points 1 and 2 above. That’s when I started to become concerned about him resting on his laurels. I was willing to offer some grace as the Caps were a good team that year and you can understand the fatigue.
But when he did nothing again vs the Islanders in 2019 is when I started calling for his head. Check my post history…I feel like I was 1 of the first people pointing this stuff out. So it’s been a frustrating 5 years for me. I cannot stand this dude.

 

[pistolpete11]

If past years are any indication, they will give Sullivan enough rope and then the team will snap out of it enough for them to say "See!?!?! He IS a good coach" even though they will have dug themselves too big of a hole to climb out of.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

If past years are any indication, they will give Sullivan enough rope and then the team will snap out of it enough for them to say "See!?!?! He IS a good coach" even though they will have dug themselves too big of a hole to climb out of.

Yup, it's annoying to see people get credit for "fixing" the issue they created in the 1st place.
Maddening...

 

[Ugene Magic]

What I hate the most is the narrative that these gms went and ruined the team for Sullivan and poor old Sullivan was helpless in all of this while a high number of players performed poorly for him and it wasn't his fault.

When in reality his clashes with players, idiotic usage, etc caused them to lose more value on players in trades and having to make trades while adding value to quickly turn the roster over again. Sullivan has done more damage to this team than any of those Gm's that did have some bad moves but seeing how much this ownership and even Mario and Co loved Sullivan and wanted him to have who he needs to win, most of the shit moves are because of him.

Yeah, my larger point is, that Occam's Razor has it much more likely that the Cups were a product of ALL the coaches and players on staff than the head coach, given the body of work we have at our disposal to analyze.

I think also the focus on head coaches kind of obscures the fact that head coaches rely on their ACs to fashion the game plans for their respective portfolios. People are keen to point out that Sullivan isn't in charge of the PP, for example, but I don't think that supports the argument that we have a good HC with bad assistants. I think, on the other hand, it reinforces the idea that we should be looking at coaching staffs as a unified whole and hiring them based on their roles and responsibilities, the same way we build lines (or should build lines).

Here are the coaching crews through the good and the very bad.

Which I'm surprised they ever brought back, Reirden.

The good:

Savard, Yeo/HM Fitzgerald
Tocchet. Martin/HM Gonchar

The very bad:

Rierden and any form of a coaching staff, including the entire current coaching staff.

Recchi was no Tocchet.

He has his fingerprints on all the suckage. Talk about a guy who road Generational coat tails.

Team staff history

 

[Andy99]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851246696707010822

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851245989241209268

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Reunite Grzelcyk-Letang or remove Grzelcyk from the lineup altogether.

Grzelcyk - Letang
Graves - Karlsson
Pettersson - St. Ivany

Just use the best combinations you can in this situation. Roll the pairings, balance the ice time. Leave no clear 1st, 2nd and 3rd pairing.
If Karlsson and Letang can't tighten things up defensively then they deserve to have some of their minutes eaten up by JSI. Remind them what their primary job is.
It would take minimal effort from St. Ivany to defend as well as those two have, even against top Forwards of the opposition.

And Graves deserves to move up too. He's holding the fort, but getting no help offensively. Petts is getting nuked so reduce his minutes and give them to another.

 

[eXile3]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851246696707010822

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851245989241209268

Number 2 is something that’s been very noticeable to me.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Number 2 is something that’s been very noticeable to me.

Same. And so has everyone else, evidently.

It's funny to me that somehow this team is simultaneously painfully scripted and also utterly befuddled and confused. Quite the feat!

 

[Gurglesons]

View attachment 923325
Reunite Grzelcyk-Letang or remove Grzelcyk from the lineup altogether.

Grzelcyk - Letang
Graves - Karlsson
Pettersson - St. Ivany

Just use the best combinations you can in this situation. Roll the pairings, balance the ice time. Leave no clear 1st, 2nd and 3rd pairing.
If Karlsson and Letang can't tighten things up defensively then they deserve to have some of their minutes eaten up by JSI. Remind them what their primary job is.
It would take minimal effort from St. Ivany to defend as well as those two have, even against top Forwards of the opposition.

And Graves deserves to move up too. He's holding the fort, but getting no help offensively. Petts is getting nuked so reduce his minutes and give them to another.

Ryan Graves the new Michael Bunting that you are misreading per 60s on in a small sample?

 

[Malkinstheman]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851246696707010822

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851245989241209268

Another thing to add to this: the way they breakout of the Dzone is infuriating. Often they'll just throw the puck around the boards and it gets easily picked off by the other teams. Then this will result in sustained zone time for the other team.

 

[Pens x]

That isnt an NHL roster. I blame Dubas as much as Sully. The team has absolutely no depth.

 

[cygnus47]

Thank you for being rational.

Those saying that MS did nothing during those Cup runs are out to lunch. Skewer him for what he’s done over the past 5 years, but Sullivan’s tactics were on full display for those Cups.


- Can’t remember which playoffs it was, but he dummied Trotz twice in a series by double shifting Sid at the end of a period. Sully was on the road and he snuck Sid on, which he ended up scoring a goal.
- Same situation with Schultz, but the other way around. Everyone knew Schultz was a very limited defender and Sully deployed him in favorable places. I was at the playoff game in 2017 where we iced the puck a billion times (believe it was Game 5) and I witnessed this maneuver 1st hand. If there was a matchup after puck drop that Sully didn’t like (mostly Schultz going up against Ovi), Schultz would sprint to the bench.
- Sullivan should also get credit for the goalie carousel that was occurring due to Murray’s injuries. Remember that Murray didn’t get all 16 wins in either Cup run. Sullivan chose the right goalie each time.

I noticed in the 2018 series vs the Caps that Sullivan no longer kept doing points 1 and 2 above. That’s when I started to become concerned about him resting on his laurels. I was willing to offer some grace as the Caps were a good team that year and you can understand the fatigue.
But when he did nothing again vs the Islanders in 2019 is when I started calling for his head. Check my post history…I feel like I was 1 of the first people pointing this stuff out. So it’s been a frustrating 5 years for me. I cannot stand this dude.

Out of desperation for good hockey, I rewatched all of the games from 2016 and 2017 playoffs about a year ago, and I read posts from all the games too. 2016 I give Sully 100% credit. He changed the system and it fit the guys JR brought in. Brought up AHLers that fit, went full line blender to get guys going, double shifted Sid with the 4th line in key moments, did his best to put everyone in a position to succeed. We played high in our zone and encouraged our opponents to attempt to make tough passes to get behind us. If anyone else goes back and watches, you'll be shocked at how aggressive and risky we were playing. And we buzz-sawed everyone. Tampa got so lucky and still couldn't stop us.

2017 IMO is where everything went wrong. We were giving up too many goals and then Letang got injured and Sully changed the system to make it more passive in our zone, loaded up the top 6 and we just hung on hoping to score on mistakes. But then no-one was ready for Guentzel. Sid, G and Kessel all went on hot streaks and we had both of the top goalie performances of the playoffs. Nothing Sully did had any impact on us winning in 2017 IMO. It was just crazy clutch scoring plus a bunch of key injuries to opponents.

We tried the 2016 system at the start of 2018 from memory but Sully got scared after a few bad games, gave up on playing aggressive, JR lost his mind and threw away all our assets and the rest is history. Outside of a few weeks here and there in the last 5 years we haven't even tried to play the way that worked so well in 2016. The last couple years the roster hasn't been up to it anyway, but people saying 'the 2016 system doesn't work anymore' are wrong. I don't think we've even had a system in 6 years, other than 'don't you dare try to get the puck in our own zone until the opponent gives it to you'.

 

[Andy99]

Out of desperation for good hockey, I rewatched all of the games from 2016 and 2017 playoffs about a year ago, and I read posts from all the games too. 2016 I give Sully 100% credit. He changed the system and it fit the guys JR brought in. Brought up AHLers that fit, went full line blender to get guys going, double shifted Sid with the 4th line in key moments, did his best to put everyone in a position to succeed. We played high in our zone and encouraged our opponents to attempt to make tough passes to get behind us. If anyone else goes back and watches, you'll be shocked at how aggressive and risky we were playing. And we buzz-sawed everyone. Tampa got so lucky and still couldn't stop us.

2017 IMO is where everything went wrong. We were giving up too many goals and then Letang got injured and Sully changed the system to make it more passive in our zone, loaded up the top 6 and we just hung on hoping to score on mistakes. But then no-one was ready for Guentzel. Sid, G and Kessel all went on hot streaks and we had both of the top goalie performances of the playoffs. Nothing Sully did had any impact on us winning in 2017 IMO. It was just crazy clutch scoring plus a bunch of key injuries to opponents.

We tried the 2016 system at the start of 2018 from memory but Sully got scared after a few bad games, gave up on playing aggressive, JR lost his mind and threw away all our assets and the rest is history. Outside of a few weeks here and there in the last 5 years we haven't even tried to play the way that worked so well in 2016. The last couple years the roster hasn't been up to it anyway, but people saying 'the 2016 system doesn't work anymore' are wrong. I don't think we've even had a system in 6 years, other than 'don't you dare try to get the puck in our own zone until the opponent gives it to you'.

We don’t have the players to play it because it requires us to get on the forecheck hard and we just aren’t winning those puck battles…he’s trying to play 2016 to start the season again and we’re losing…badly lol

 

[Pens x]

No coach in the league could make this roster a playoff team.

We have three giant problems - ownership, management and coaching. They all vary in degrees of stupidity. The excitement around FSG buying the team is hilarious now.

We are headed for some very dark times. I have 0 faith in this franchise from top to bottom.

 

[SEALBound]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851246696707010822

https://x.com/i/web/status/1851245989241209268

There are some easy and not so easy answers here.

Yes, they absolutely lack the speed and tenacity to effectively dump and chase. When they could do this, they had the likes of young Rust, Hagelin, Hornqvist, and even Kunitz. They could legitimately outskate most of the defenses they were up against. Today? No, they cannot. So I don't blame them for not wanting to do it. I think it would lead to several one-and-dones in the offensive zone. To counter that, they believe that puck possession is the key which is not completely unreasonable. When Detroit had their core in place getting old, they maintained a level of success through consistent, smart possession and then hoped that the remaining skill left in the tank of their core guys would be enough to get it done. As we know, it eventually fizzled.

Dmen join the group because they still believe that the overall skill of Letang and Karlsson is a net benefit to the offensive rush. They still hold a deep-seated belief that offense off the rush is crucial. I think a part of that is preference and established, long-term habits. How many times have we seen Sid break into the zone and pull up at the top of the circle to hit the trailing dman? Great except we don't have a dman like Bouchard, Makar, Fox who can make good use of those opportunities (no matter how highly we think of Karlsson and Letang). More often that not, it's Pettersson who unleashes a wet noodle of a shot of the chest of the goalie. That's if anyone of them hit the net at all.

Last the powerplay is a mess because you have four special talents whose hockey IQs are off the charts that can't come to terms with the fact that their bodies aren't 25 anymore. Since entering the league the PP for Sid, Letang, and Malkin has been largely based on the belief that their overall skill and playmaking ability will be able to overcome the four-man disadvantage. This is no longer the case there and there is no good way to sit all of them down and tell them "you don't have it anymore" without there being major ego-driven consequences. Worse, it's not like there's a calvary coming to help them. There's no prime Neal on the roster where you can say "work it so you set him up at the top of the circle ala 2012". There's no prime-Hornqvist that will battle it out in front to the net. There's no highly skilled young guy that can single-handedly make something happen. We have who we have.

Bottom line, we went and got old. Worse, Sullivan is a f***ing fraud who can't make legitimate changes to help.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If past years are any indication, they will give Sullivan enough rope and then the team will snap out of it enough for them to say "See!?!?! He IS a good coach" even though they will have dug themselves too big of a hole to climb out of.

This is exactly what they've done with Sullivan for years. Ignore the bad stretches that ultimately cost the team a playoff spot and focus on the random 4 or 5 game winning streaks the team goes on when it's already too late.

So you're right. That's what will happen again. All it will take is for the Pens to beat the Wild and the Ducks and suddenly the narrative is the western swing wasn't all that bad.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

No coach in the league could make this roster a playoff team.

We have three giant problems - ownership, management and coaching. They all vary in degrees of stupidity. The excitement around FSG buying the team is hilarious now.

We are headed for some very dark times. I have 0 faith in this franchise from top to bottom.

You know I think this year you may be right on this.

It's just wild to see how a lot of players first come here don't know the system as well and play the game well.

Karlsson at the start of last year.
Bunting when he first got traded.

Our coaching stinks.

 

[vodeni]

Number 2 is something that’s been very noticeable to me.

Actually number 1 is money, that’s the biggest problem that’s why we got stuck in our zone for the extended period of time and bleed chances, I thought they do tons of dump and no chase, because they can’t get to the pucks most of the time, watch Geno, even he dumps 50 percent of time when carrying the puck in NZ

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You know I think this year you may be right on this.

It's just wild to see how a lot of players first come here don't know the system as well and play the game well.

Karlsson at the start of last year.
Bunting when he first got traded.

Our coaching stinks.

Even Rielly Smith got off to a hot start last season.

Sullivan has an uncanny ability to turn good players into trash once he gets a firm grip on them and "fixes" how they play.

 

[vodeni]

Number 2 is something that’s been very noticeable to me.

Actually number 1 is money, that’s the biggest problem that’s why we got stuck in our zone for the extended period of time and bleed chances, I thought they do tons of dump and no chase, because they can’t get to the pucks most of the time, watch Geno, even he dumps 50 percent of time when carrying the puck in NZ

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Even Rielly Smith got off to a hot start last season.

Sullivan has an uncanny ability to turn good players into trash once he gets a firm grip on them and "fixes" how they play.

Add in the fact that former Penguins are now going on to their new teams and largely doing fine or at least fitting in. Especially the last few years.

There was a time where the players the Penguins moved on from largely fizzled out afterwards. Not so much anymore.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Add in the fact that former Penguins are now going on to their new teams and largely doing fine or at least fitting in. Especially the last few years.

There was a time where the players the Penguins moved on from largely fizzled out afterwards. Not so much anymore.

It's not a coincidence players move on doing bigger better things else where.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

We are tied for 2nd last inngoal differential

Only the Sharks have the words one at -20.

It's like a 3 or 4 way tie at -13.

We are also bottom 4 in points %.

Time to make a plan to sell to get future assets. Players like Karlsson will need to be talked to about where they would want to play.
I think eating a % of that contract is the move.

 

[Ulf5]

Even Rielly Smith got off to a hot start last season.

Sullivan has an uncanny ability to turn good players into trash once he gets a firm grip on them and "fixes" how they play.

I'm starting to think it's more than Sully trying to shoe horn players into roles they're not suited for. Such as Granlund 15:00/games 3C with no one to setup.
I think these players aren't part of the culture and haven't been here for years. And they just tune Sully out. At least to a degree. They know what it takes to succeed at their individual games. And Sully is pretty good at diminishing that.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I feel a bit like @Andy99 here but Yohe was on some podcast yesterday and said that Sid doesnt want Sullivan fired and FSG loves him. He doesnt think Sullivan is getting fired no matter how bad the season gets.

I have have been trying to look for any inkling of Sullivan being on the hot seat but I cant find anything. Sullivan is gonna be here until Sid retires.