Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Andy99]

 

[Khelandros]

I missed it, how did Tomasino get hurt?

Flying forearm to the head, courtesy of Sam* Carrick.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Flying forearm to the head, courtesy of Connor Carrick.

"a good hockey play"

 

[AuroraBorealis]

For all his faults I don’t buy the “Sullivan doesn’t like Euro players” thing. The legit NHL players (Hagelin, Hornqvist, Petts, EK etc.) we’re mostly put in positions to succeed. The euro players that are fringe NHLers maybe not so much but none of them were/are very good anyways.

It's about there being a different bar. A European has to do more to earn the same thing as an American born player, especially if they're from Massachusetts or played there. So if there's 2 fringe players, one European and one American, and both perform at the same level, the European with poor English will get sent down.

Zohorna would never get the rope Harkins got last year, if he played exactly the same way. He couldn't even stay in the lineup when he was outperforming most to all other bottom-sixers offensively and defensively.
Riikola got less rope and games than JJ despite outplaying him most of the time. Colin White got pushed to L2 duty with Malkin even though he did nothing in pre-season to even make the team.
Boyle's camp was tragic and he made the team anyway.
Grzelcyk has had huge minutes in critical roles even though he was analytically near the worst defenseman in the NHL earlier this year.
What about Rust? Where's the justification for any PP1 time the last 2 years?
Acciari? His rope is incredible. He's not even a high-level PK'er. He's completely replaceable there.
He blocks shots so he's a permanent fixture? How the f*** is he ahead of Pulju right now? What other coach would scratch him?
O'Connor? A European getting 15-16 mins a night when they go goalless in 23 games?

Nah, there's a problem here.

 

[SEALBound]

I think people would have less of a problem with it if he didn't force not very good, fringe NHLer, North Americans down our throats like Noel Acciari and Matt Nieto.

Agreed and I will take it a step further. If a 4th line is going to be a 4th line I think it's fair to say that the line may struggle in various aspects of the game. Nieto-Acciari-Hayes has a slew of problems with it just based on the known capabilities of the players. If a 4th line is going to be only semi-impactful and the best we hope for is even play, I'd rather struggle with a line like Poulin-Glass-Puljujarvi. Primarily because I think these young guys bring a much needed energy to the lineup. As a compromise, I'd be okay with Glass-Acciari-Puljujarvi because Acciari isn't the blackhole this year as he was last year.

I talked earlier in the year about how I would keep a set of rotations, one being a young guy rotation and the other a vet rotation but you always make sure there is a balance. For example, Nieto, Acciari, and Hayes rotate and then Glass, Puljujarvi, Puustinen, Poulin, etc rotate. But you would never have a line like Nieto-Acciari-Hayes.

It's about there being a different bar. A European has to do more to earn the same thing as an American born player, especially if they're from Massachusetts or played there. So if there's 2 fringe players, one European and one American, and both perform at the same level, the European with poor English will get sent down.

Zohorna would never get the rope Harkins got last year, if he played exactly the same way. He couldn't even stay in the lineup when he was outperforming most to all other bottom-sixers offensively and defensively.
Riikola got less rope and games than JJ despite outplaying him most of the time. Colin White got pushed to L2 duty with Malkin even though he did nothing in pre-season to even make the team.
Boyle's camp was tragic and he made the team anyway.
Grzelcyk has had huge minutes in critical roles even though he was analytically near the worst defenseman in the NHL earlier this year.
What about Rust? Where's the justification for any PP1 time the last 2 years?
Acciari? His rope is incredible. He's not even a high-level PK'er. He's completely replaceable there.
He blocks shots so he's a permanent fixture? How the f*** is he ahead of Pulju right now? What other coach would scratch him?
O'Connor? A European getting 15-16 mins a night when they go goalless in 23 games?

Nah, there's a problem here.

Riikola just wasn't a good dman though. Granted, JJ was bad too but Riikola stunk and it is easy to see via the eye test. The adv stats were pretty glaring, too, IIRC. He was doomed to be a bottom-pairing guy. I wish he had gotten more time, but really, he was a replacement-level player.

Boyle, I'm less mad about. At the time, it's not like we had a gluttony of young talents eager to make the lineup. Boyle was "taking time away from" the likes of Hallander, Bjorkqvist, and Angello, who are all nobodies. Boyle, however, had a long-tenured history in the league and was a good 4C. I think he also gets the benefit of being a center too, not unlike Acciari vs, say, Puljujarvi.

Gryz sucks, you're right, but Pickering's emergence and Gryz's existence are frequently keeping Graves out of the lineup. That's a good thing.

Rust is getting the benefits of tenure with the team. It's a coin flip each night on whether it's worth it but I also think there's a level of comfort there with the core having him on the PP. He's a known quantity which can make things easier at times.

DOC this year is like Rakell last year. Rakell, for a $5mil long-term deal, was producing horrifically. But at the same time, he was doing things away from the puck that still helped the play.

I don't really know of anyone that didn't get the chance that went on to accomplish greatness, ya know? I think sometimes when we like a guy and really want them to succeed and they don't, we look for other causes so that we don't have to come terms with the idea that he probably wasn't very good to begin with.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Riikola just wasn't a good dman though. Granted, JJ was bad too but Riikola stunk and it is easy to see via the eye test. The adv stats were pretty glaring, too, IIRC. He was doomed to be a bottom-pairing guy. I wish he had gotten more time, but really, he was a replacement-level player.

The point is JJ was worse and was prio'd.
He could have became more under a better coach probably. Good toolbox. Speed, rifle slapper, good at boxing out in the paint and pretty decent at goals against suppression.
We'll never know though, since he wasn't supported as he should have been.

Boyle, I'm less mad about. At the time, it's not like we had a gluttony of young talents eager to make the lineup. Boyle was "taking time away from" the likes of Hallander, Bjorkqvist, and Angello, who are all nobodies. Boyle, however, had a long-tenured history in the league and was a good 4C. I think he also gets the benefit of being a center too, not unlike Acciari vs, say, Puljujarvi.

I'm glad Boyle made it in the end, because he had a strong year. But that was just luck and happenstance.
He got in in the first place due to nepotism, not his play. Veteran, American, former Sully player in New York.
By the time camp had ended, he was looking like a massive liability. Plus he was coming off 1.5 years away from the game.
If he was a European 37 y/o who never played under Sully, he doesn't get his chance.

Gryz sucks, you're right, but Pickering's emergence and Gryz's existence are frequently keeping Graves out of the lineup. That's a good thing.

I would say Graves has had more serviceable to good games than bad ones this year.
Can't say the same for Gryz. Although he's contributing offensively. I'll give him that.

Rust is getting the benefits of tenure with the team. It's a coin flip each night on whether it's worth it but I also think there's a level of comfort there with the core having him on the PP. He's a known quantity which can make things easier at times.

Doesn't help having someone familiar on the PP if he doesn't help the unit produce. Makes him worthless.
Tomasino should be on the left wall right now and Bunting in front of the net. Couldn't be more obvious.

DOC this year is like Rakell last year. Rakell, for a $5mil long-term deal, was producing horrifically. But at the same time, he was doing things away from the puck that still helped the play.

Those guys aren't good enough for top-six. You have to score in the top-six, especially with Malkin being 38 and needing help.
Plus like I said, a European league minimum guy wouldn't have gotten as much leeway as O'Connor. He'd be told to pack his bags.

I don't really know of anyone that didn't get the chance that went on to accomplish greatness, ya know? I think sometimes when we like a guy and really want them to succeed and they don't, we look for other causes so that we don't have to come terms with the idea that he probably wasn't very good to begin with.

The post was about fairness, not greatness.
I'm not looking for other causes. I saw all the games and followed all the pressers and news bites. I know what happened.
The same pattern over and over. There's a nepotism problem here. It's become his biggest weakness as a coach.

 

[SEALBound]

The point is JJ was worse and was prio'd.
He could have became more under a better coach probably. Good toolbox. Speed, rifle slapper, good at boxing out in the paint and pretty decent at goals against suppression.
We'll never know though, since he wasn't supported as he should have been.

I'm glad Boyle made it in the end, because he had a strong year. But that was just luck and happenstance.
He got in in the first place due to nepotism, not his play. Veteran, American, former Sully player in New York.
By the time camp had ended, he was looking like a massive liability. Plus he was coming off 1.5 years away from the game.
If he was a European 37 y/o who never played under Sully, he doesn't get his chance.

I would say Graves has had more serviceable to good games than bad ones this year.
Can't say the same for Gryz. Although he's contributing offensively. I'll give him that.

Doesn't help having someone familiar on the PP if he doesn't help the unit produce. Makes him worthless.
Tomasino should be on the left wall right now and Bunting in front of the net. Couldn't be more obvious.

Those guys aren't good enough for top-six. You have to score in the top-six, especially with Malkin being 38 and needing help.
Plus like I said, a European league minimum guy wouldn't have gotten as much leeway as O'Connor. He'd be told to pack his bags.

The post was about fairness, not greatness.
I'm not looking for other causes. I saw all the games and followed all the pressers and news bites. I know what happened.
The same pattern over and over. There's a nepotism problem here. It's become his biggest weakness as a coach.

If they could have paired Riikola with a solid, defense-first guy, I think it would have made a difference. Like Pettersson-Riikola could probably have been a decent 3rd pairing. It's basically Dumo-Letang-lite. With Riikola, it just came down the mere fact that he was getting caved in defensively. Everything else, I didn't have issue with. But I agree in that, a better coach and more importantly a better system would likely have yielded better results.

Boyle was going to get the preference though and that's not unusual. You can call up a guy like Hallander or Bjorkqvist if you need and you can merely scratch Boyle. I don't think US vs Europe matters for a guy like Boyle. It's not a stretch to see Euros in a similar position. Look at Eller for example. If Eller was 37 but wanted a 4C and PK role, I don't think the fact that he's European will handicap him in getting a contract, especially if the camp competition is similar to what Boyle had. Boyle gets the preference because he had a solid 15 year history as a reliable bottom 6 center. Best we had was Hallander who was a question mark at best and waiver-exempt. I don't think Boyle is a tragic anti-Euro example.

And while I appreciate the fairness aspect and I will agree there are multiple instances of injustice with Sullivan, I'm not convinced that it's an anti-European thing. Rakell gets top time. Karlsson gets top time. Eller got good time. Pettersson gets top time. Malkin gets top time.

I think the issue with Sullivan is more his stubborn viewpoint about what a 4th line should be. He wants low-event hockey, defense, and PK'ers. That being the case, it's not hard to see why he might want Acciari over Puustinen. That doesn't mean I think it's right. I'd much rather have Puljujarvi-Glass-Puustinen as a line than Nieto-Acciari-Hayes. The difference is I'm willing to sacrifice a smidge of PK'manship in hopes that the line produces more.

 

[Pancakes]

I think the issue with Sullivan is more his stubborn viewpoint about what a 4th line should be. He wants low-event hockey, defense, and PK'ers. That being the case, it's not hard to see why he might want Acciari over Puustinen. That doesn't mean I think it's right. I'd much rather have Puljujarvi-Glass-Puustinen as a line than Nieto-Acciari-Hayes. The difference is I'm willing to sacrifice a smidge of PK'manship in hopes that the line produces more.

Yeah the problem with Sullivan too is he wants a low event bottom six but the past few years under Sullivan the Pens are complete dog shit defensively even with his preferred rosters and they also have had trouble scoring because the bottom sixes we've trotted out not only get caved in but they also can't score.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

If they could have paired Riikola with a solid, defense-first guy, I think it would have made a difference. Like Pettersson-Riikola could probably have been a decent 3rd pairing. It's basically Dumo-Letang-lite. With Riikola, it just came down the mere fact that he was getting caved in defensively. Everything else, I didn't have issue with. But I agree in that, a better coach and more importantly a better system would likely have yielded better results.

Boyle was going to get the preference though and that's not unusual. You can call up a guy like Hallander or Bjorkqvist if you need and you can merely scratch Boyle. I don't think US vs Europe matters for a guy like Boyle. It's not a stretch to see Euros in a similar position. Look at Eller for example. If Eller was 37 but wanted a 4C and PK role, I don't think the fact that he's European will handicap him in getting a contract, especially if the camp competition is similar to what Boyle had. Boyle gets the preference because he had a solid 15 year history as a reliable bottom 6 center. Best we had was Hallander who was a question mark at best and waiver-exempt. I don't think Boyle is a tragic anti-Euro example.

And while I appreciate the fairness aspect and I will agree there are multiple instances of injustice with Sullivan, I'm not convinced that it's an anti-European thing. Rakell gets top time. Karlsson gets top time. Eller got good time. Pettersson gets top time. Malkin gets top time.

I think the issue with Sullivan is more his stubborn viewpoint about what a 4th line should be. He wants low-event hockey, defense, and PK'ers. That being the case, it's not hard to see why he might want Acciari over Puustinen. That doesn't mean I think it's right. I'd much rather have Puljujarvi-Glass-Puustinen as a line than Nieto-Acciari-Hayes. The difference is I'm willing to sacrifice a smidge of PK'manship in hopes that the line produces more.

I think examples like Boyle and Eller are irrelevant here. Both guys were "established" vets with proven results. Sully generally treats established players the same regardless of nationality.

It's the unproven/young guys where there is clear bias by Sullivan to favor NA players.

 

[SEALBound]

I think examples like Boyle and Eller are irrelevant here. Both guys were "established" vets with proven results. Sully generally treats established players the same regardless of nationality.

It's the unproven/young guys where there is clear bias by Sullivan to favor NA players.

That's pretty much what I am saying.

With young/unproven guys, I don't know. Puljujarvi and has been getting games, Puustinen got a few. Glass has gotten equal game when healthy. McGroarty got games but then got sent down...

While I don't think there's much evidence of a European player that is true NHL quality getting the shaft over a lackluster NA, I would support the premise that there is likely a bias with Sullivan there. I'm more in the "I just don't think Puustinen and Zohorna are good examples of clear anti-Euro bias". I mean, both a tweener players at best. It's not like we have a Rakell in WBS at 2PPG with Sullivan refusing to promote him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If they could have paired Riikola with a solid, defense-first guy, I think it would have made a difference. Like Pettersson-Riikola could probably have been a decent 3rd pairing. It's basically Dumo-Letang-lite. With Riikola, it just came down the mere fact that he was getting caved in defensively. Everything else, I didn't have issue with. But I agree in that, a better coach and more importantly a better system would likely have yielded better results.

And despite getting caved in defensively, he ended up as a +8 over 80 games. Everyone kept talking about his outlet passing and corsi when he was taking care of his #1 job, goals against suppression. I don't ask for any more from 3rd pairing D-men making close to league minimum than that.
Seems pretty good when you compare him to Grzelcyk at -13 through 29 games, doesn't it? Keep in mind he spent a fair chunk of time with JJ.
He probably would have only gotten more useful over time with a coach who wanted to help him get better instead of push him out the door.

When you see a player has physical gifts like that, it's probably not the most intelligent thing in the world to do everything you can to demoralize the guy.
He came here with a lot of belief in himself. A lot of swagger. Sullivan crushed his spirit completely.

 

[SEALBound]

And despite getting caved in defensively, he ended up as a +8 over 80 games. Everyone kept talking about his outlet passing and corsi when he was taking care of his #1 job, goals against suppression. I don't ask for any more from 3rd pairing D-men making close to league minimum than that.
Seems pretty good when you compare him to Grzelcyk at -13 through 29 games, doesn't it? Keep in mind he spent a fair chunk of time with JJ.
He probably would have only gotten more useful over time with a coach who wanted to help him get better instead of push him out the door.

When you see a player has physical gifts like that, it's probably not the most intelligent thing in the world to do everything you can to demoralize the guy.
He came here with a lot of belief in himself. A lot of swagger. Sullivan crushed his spirit completely.

Overall, I can say with confidence that I would rather have Riikola on the team vs Grzelcyk. At the moment, they are probably both providing the same level of skill and ability. That said, I don't think it's a 1:1, apples to apples comparison just based on the quality of the teams each of them have/had. Riikola was here in his hayday in the 2018-2020 then trailed off in 21? I would say the team in front of each was significantly better for Riikola vs Grzelcyk. I imagine if Riikola got saddled with present-day Letang or Karlsson, he'd struggle just as much as Gryz, but I think there's more to that than just the player himself in a vacuum.

So yeah, I'm not arguing that Gryz > Riikola by any stretch. I'm merely point out that Riikola was "meh" at best. He's a third-pairing guy who struggles with defense, the same as Gryz does this year. I also don't know who they put in place of Gryz. Pickering is getting the chance and appears to have usurp his role. Graves and Gryz are likely going to be in and out if Petts and Pickering are the 1-2 on the left side.

 

[Andy99]

Overall, I can say with confidence that I would rather have Riikola on the team vs Grzelcyk. At the moment, they are probably both providing the same level of skill and ability. That said, I don't think it's a 1:1, apples to apples comparison just based on the quality of the teams each of them have/had. Riikola was here in his hayday in the 2018-2020 then trailed off in 21? I would say the team in front of each was significantly better for Riikola vs Grzelcyk. I imagine if Riikola got saddled with present-day Letang or Karlsson, he'd struggle just as much as Gryz, but I think there's more to that than just the player himself in a vacuum.

So yeah, I'm not arguing that Gryz > Riikola by any stretch. I'm merely point out that Riikola was "meh" at best. He's a third-pairing guy who struggles with defense, the same as Gryz does this year. I also don't know who they put in place of Gryz. Pickering is getting the chance and appears to have usurp his role. Graves and Gryz are likely going to be in and out if Petts and Pickering are the 1-2 on the left side.

I’d rather have Grz in the Ozone and PP and Riikola defensively…my god does Grz stink in the D zone…it’s embarrassing…but he is a pretty good shooter and playmaker for a D man…I understand why he’s playing over others but he’s honestly our worst D man in the D zone lol

 

[SEALBound]

I’d rather have Grz in the Ozone and PP and Riikola defensively…my god does Grz stink in the D zone…it’s embarrassing…but he is a pretty good shooter and playmaker for a D man…I understand why he’s playing over others but he’s honestly our worst D man in the D zone lol

Gryz, Graves, Letang, and Karlsson all suck in the dzone. Petts can hold his own. Shea and JSI are meh. Pickering seems decent albeit new.

If 4 of your 6 are going to suck in the dzone, you either better have a DAMN good structure (we don't) or they better be contributing up front (they aren't at a level that justifies it).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yohe has an update on a few things, including Hoglander rumors.

Pens have definitely explored Hoglander trade, as Yohe notes other have also reported. Rossi says his profile fits exactly what Dubas is trying to do.

However, Yohe says, Hoglander has fallen out of favor with Rick Tocchet in Vancouver. Tocchet and Sullivan are still close and talk often. Sullivan trusts Tocchet a ton. So, if Tocchet isn't a Hoglander fan, Sullivan is going be very aware of that.

Yohe says Dubas has final call on player acquisition, but Sullivan obviously has a big voice in the process.

What I’m hearing on Jaromir Jagr, Penguins’ interest in Nils Höglander and much more

On a potential return to Pittsburgh for Jagr, Höglander speculation, Tristan Jarry's resurgence and more.

www.nytimes.com

Looking at Hoglander more, I'm starting to understand why he has fallen out of favor. Pointless in 16 straight games and taking a ton of undisciplined penalties. From my count, he has taken 9 penalties to put his team shorthanded while only having 5 points this year. A bunch of his penalties have been things like tripping, slashing and holding as well, so they're not good penalties either.

I'm growing more and more sour on the idea of adding him, especially if Vancouver wants something for him.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Our immediate future to turn things around quickly would look so much better if we didn’t have some pretty ugly contracts sitting there for gaining more draft capital.

Graves, Jarry, Letang, Rust (although there’s a way out with Rust shortly), the other 3 are just way too long in term.

Pretty sure the FO wants to get out from under Jarry and are just forcing him out there nightly. Thankfully he is holding up well so there is still hope for him having some positive value and getting out of the contract.

The Graves situation is just f***ed.

 

[Ryder71]

TBH I'm indifferent on HOG, it depends on the package that might accompany him. I don't necessarily view him as a cap dump but the assets that come with him are what tips the scale.

We don't have a 2hd rounder this coming draft, I WANT THAT REMEDIED! I also want a top five prospect, especially with retention.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But on the Sullivan talk, I'd be more inclined to believe that Sullivan somehow hated Europeans if the Euros the Penguins had would have done literally anything after leaving. But they all sucked and were non-factors in the NHL even after leaving the Penguins.

Sullivan is 100% biased towards North American (especially USA born) grinders to play on the 4th line because that's what he was as a player. I think that fact is downright indisputable with how he has treated guys like Acciari, Nieto and such. That said, I don't think he "hates Euros", it's just that European players tend to not have his biased playstyle and most Euros on the Penguins have been shitty NHLers. I think it's a play style bias and it's just that a lot of European players don't have the playstyle that Sullivan favors.

If there was a European player that played a style that Sullivan liked, I have no doubt that he'd give that guy a very long leash. But for Sullivan, you either need to be defensively responsible/bringing grit or you need to produce. If you don't fall in either of those categories, he won't play you. A lot of the Euros the Penguins have had (namely guys like Puustinen, Riikola and Zohorna) both didn't produce and also didn't offer anything defensively or physically. If they had Euros who fell in either of those categories, I completely believe Sullivan would play them in notable roles. Look at Hornqvist, Hagelin, Rakell, Pettersson and Maatta as examples of that.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

If Hoglander didn’t sign his 3x3 extension, he would have been a Penguin 3 weeks ago. Young player, struggling massively, to be had on a steep discount is exactly what this team needs to be trading for.

But with his current play, hard to justify that salary sitting in a bottom 6 or worse case having even more salary sitting in the press box or AHL.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Hoglander didn’t sign his 3x3 extension, he would have been a Penguin 3 weeks ago. Young player, struggling massively, to be had on a steep discount is exactly what this team needs to be trading for.

But with his current play, hard to justify that salary sitting in a bottom 6 or worse case having even more salary sitting in the press box or AHL.

I think it's more about Vancouver wanting an actual return for him when he has been atrocious this year. Dubas shouldn't pay more than pocket lint for him especially with him being able to pull off Tomasino for a 4th.

If Vancouver wants actual assets for Hoglander, go call up Toronto about Robertson instead.

 

[Ryder71]

Petts, 40% retained and DOC for

HOG, 25' 2hd, D E.Petts

OR

HOG, 25' 2hd, 27' 3rd, Mynio

 

[DesertPenguin]

Don't really see why we need Hoglander or any other middle six forwards. The top 9 now has a good mix of those.

Rakell Crosby Rust
DOC Malkin Tomasino
Bunting Lizotte Puljujarvi

McGroarty is on the way to replace one of DOC or Bunting. We have some pluggera that need moved out out the way and some prospects that need to mature to fill the rest between now and opening day next year.

If we're adding a forward, I want a top line F or don't bother.

What we really need is LHD, while clearing Gryzelcyk, Graves or Jarry out. Hoglander doesn't do that for us.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think it's more about Vancouver wanting an actual return for him when he has been atrocious this year. Dubas shouldn't pay more than pocket lint for him especially with him being able to pull off Tomasino for a 4th.

If Vancouver wants actual assets for Hoglander, go call up Toronto about Robertson instead.

Don't really see the purpose in acquiring Robertson with Tomasino.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Don't really see why we need Hoglander or any other middle six forwards. The top 9 now has a good mix of those.

Rakell Crosby Rust
DOC Malkin Tomasino
Bunting Lizotte Puljujarvi

McGroarty is on the way to replace one of DOC or Bunting. We have some pluggera that need moved out out the way and some prospects that need to mature to fill the rest between now and opening day next year.

If we're adding a forward, I want a top line F or don't bother.

What we really need is LHD, while clearing Gryzelcyk, Graves or Jarry out. Hoglander doesn't do that for us.

This team is rebuilding, what's the point of adding a top line forward?

You add guys like Hoglander because you get them for cheap, pump up their value and trade them for more down the line. You trade guys like O'Connor, Puljujarvi, Bunting and possibly Rakell or Rust and take on young guys to increase their value. Not only that, but Puljujarvi isn't a top-9 forward for this team so I don't know why he's being included.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Don't really see the purpose in acquiring Robertson with Tomasino.

More about targeting just another young player rather than going with Hoglander. I'd be fine with up to their latest 3rd and Nieto for Hoglander, but anything more than that seems silly with the season Hoglander is having.