Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

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I find it so laughable that this idea that the Pens are going to start getting younger means Sid has to be gone. What a load of crap. There are what, TWO players on this roster under 26? Every journeyman Dubas recalls is either 26 or 25 years old. Hell, even re-signing Guentzel would not necessarily mean we can't get younger. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson and Guentzel are five players on a 23-man roster. Throw in Jarry, and we still have 17 roster spots to fill. Can we get younger with those 17 spots? YES! But not if we start the process of trading with P.O. Joseph! Then you are literally going backwards.

Trade:
- Reilly Smith. Another victim of Mike Sullivan, imo. He is this year's Tanner Pearson. Stanley Cups elsewhere mean nothing if you can't play Mike Sullivan hockey. I think we can get a second-round pick and maybe a long-range or AHL prospect.

- Lars Eller. He has value, but that second year on his contract could make it tricky. I would look for a one-for-one deal for a player who can step in and contribute. Aatu Raty in Vancouver would be great. Could we get Nikolai Kovalenko in Colorado? I doubt it. They tried Eller already, and it did not really work. But we can get a deal done here.

- Chad Ruhwedel. For the love of all things unholy, move on from this Mike Sullivan favorite. Get a draft pick and move on. His right-handedness and reputation are selling points.

- Matt Nieto. He is on the comeback trail. Also a player whose reputation is good. Edmonton wanted him last July, but he chose Pittsburgh. Get a late pick and move on.

- Alex Nedeljkovic. I think he has value now. Teams would likely take him over Jake Allen right now, based on 2023-24 performance. But Montreal's GM is pro-active, so will Dubas take advantage of Ned's strong season? Get a pick back, or a young prospect. Then, next year you can maybe try Blomqvist as the backup or bring in a vet. Even Fleury could work for a year. Yeah yeah I know. We need to get younger. But the backup goaltender is the last roster spot where youth is important. Personally, I would just try Blomqvist and have a strong third-string option in WB/S.

- Marcus Pettersson. So far, the decisions were super easy. This one is not. But after thinking about it recently, it would make sense to maximize on Pettersson's career season. He is by far our best left defenseman. He also plays a position where we actually have organizational depth. LD and G might be the only positions where that is the case. Graves is pretty much unmovable, AND you should never sell low. Get his game going and hope he turns it around. Joseph needs to get a shot. Play him as a top four and see what you have. Ludvig can play either side, but he is probably better on the left side, too. And then we have Pickering coming and a few decent prospects behind him (the two Finns, for example). I think we can get a first and a prospect for Pettersson. If you can, do it. If teams want to low-ball, you keep him obviously.

- Bryan Rust. This is the guy we need to find a taker for. I think if we moved Rust, we could then re-sign Guentzel. And that makes sense. You keep the better winger, and you keep the younger winger. But this is up to Rust. Dubas said he has not asked anybody to waive. OK, it is time, Kyle. Ask. Find out. He has value, but you cannot simply trade him to Winnipeg. He has trade protection. You might have to trade him to the Rangers. But the Rangers have a glaring hole at right wing and would probably offer a lot for him. Make the call, Kyle. Find out.

And now Guentzel. Personally, I think we should keep him. BUT, four assets would change my mind. If Edmonton really wants him, Broberg, a first, Holloway/Bourgault/Lavoie and an NHL player is what it takes. He is the best player available. Milk that.

Now, will guys like Karlsson, Crosby, Malkin and Letang hate this? Maybe. But what they probably hate more is having Vinnie Hinostroza, Colin White and Jansen Harkins filling out the roster.

So, Dubas needs to make change. He has been way too patient. Trade the veterans and bring in youngsters. Then you can send those youngsters to the AHL when Sullivan demands White, Harkins and Hinostroza to return to Pittsburgh because they play the right way. Rinse. Repeat.

Also, Dubas's quote regarding Sullivan sounded more like a man whose hands are tied, and has zero power to make a coaching change than a man who is 100 percent behind his coaching staff.

Thank you, Fenway.
 
I find it so laughable that this idea that the Pens are going to start getting younger means Sid has to be gone. What a load of crap. There are what, TWO players on this roster under 26? Every journeyman Dubas recalls is either 26 or 25 years old. Hell, even re-signing Guentzel would not necessarily mean we can't get younger. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson and Guentzel are five players on a 23-man roster. Throw in Jarry, and we still have 17 roster spots to fill. Can we get younger with those 17 spots? YES! But not if we start the process of trading with P.O. Joseph! Then you are literally going backwards.

Trade:
- Reilly Smith. Another victim of Mike Sullivan, imo. He is this year's Tanner Pearson. Stanley Cups elsewhere mean nothing if you can't play Mike Sullivan hockey. I think we can get a second-round pick and maybe a long-range or AHL prospect.

- Lars Eller. He has value, but that second year on his contract could make it tricky. I would look for a one-for-one deal for a player who can step in and contribute. Aatu Raty in Vancouver would be great. Could we get Nikolai Kovalenko in Colorado? I doubt it. They tried Eller already, and it did not really work. But we can get a deal done here.

- Chad Ruhwedel. For the love of all things unholy, move on from this Mike Sullivan favorite. Get a draft pick and move on. His right-handedness and reputation are selling points.

- Matt Nieto. He is on the comeback trail. Also a player whose reputation is good. Edmonton wanted him last July, but he chose Pittsburgh. Get a late pick and move on.

- Alex Nedeljkovic. I think he has value now. Teams would likely take him over Jake Allen right now, based on 2023-24 performance. But Montreal's GM is pro-active, so will Dubas take advantage of Ned's strong season? Get a pick back, or a young prospect. Then, next year you can maybe try Blomqvist as the backup or bring in a vet. Even Fleury could work for a year. Yeah yeah I know. We need to get younger. But the backup goaltender is the last roster spot where youth is important. Personally, I would just try Blomqvist and have a strong third-string option in WB/S.

- Marcus Pettersson. So far, the decisions were super easy. This one is not. But after thinking about it recently, it would make sense to maximize on Pettersson's career season. He is by far our best left defenseman. He also plays a position where we actually have organizational depth. LD and G might be the only positions where that is the case. Graves is pretty much unmovable, AND you should never sell low. Get his game going and hope he turns it around. Joseph needs to get a shot. Play him as a top four and see what you have. Ludvig can play either side, but he is probably better on the left side, too. And then we have Pickering coming and a few decent prospects behind him (the two Finns, for example). I think we can get a first and a prospect for Pettersson. If you can, do it. If teams want to low-ball, you keep him obviously.

- Bryan Rust. This is the guy we need to find a taker for. I think if we moved Rust, we could then re-sign Guentzel. And that makes sense. You keep the better winger, and you keep the younger winger. But this is up to Rust. Dubas said he has not asked anybody to waive. OK, it is time, Kyle. Ask. Find out. He has value, but you cannot simply trade him to Winnipeg. He has trade protection. You might have to trade him to the Rangers. But the Rangers have a glaring hole at right wing and would probably offer a lot for him. Make the call, Kyle. Find out.

And now Guentzel. Personally, I think we should keep him. BUT, four assets would change my mind. If Edmonton really wants him, Broberg, a first, Holloway/Bourgault/Lavoie and an NHL player is what it takes. He is the best player available. Milk that.

Now, will guys like Karlsson, Crosby, Malkin and Letang hate this? Maybe. But what they probably hate more is having Vinnie Hinostroza, Colin White and Jansen Harkins filling out the roster.

So, Dubas needs to make change. He has been way too patient. Trade the veterans and bring in youngsters. Then you can send those youngsters to the AHL when Sullivan demands White, Harkins and Hinostroza to return to Pittsburgh because they play the right way. Rinse. Repeat.

Also, Dubas's quote regarding Sullivan sounded more like a man whose hands are tied, and has zero power to make a coaching change than a man who is 100 percent behind his coaching staff.

Thank you, Fenway.
Completely agree with you, especially on Petts and Rust. I'd also add Rakell to that list as I think he can definitely help out a contender for the next couple of seasons and we can look to get a hockey deal with him and bring back a 24-25 year old player in return with potential.

This deadline is starting to scare me a little, but hopefully Dubas and company don't change their minds and think long-term along with the 4 core players as he mentioned yesterday.
 
I find it so laughable that this idea that the Pens are going to start getting younger means Sid has to be gone. What a load of crap. There are what, TWO players on this roster under 26? Every journeyman Dubas recalls is either 26 or 25 years old. Hell, even re-signing Guentzel would not necessarily mean we can't get younger. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson and Guentzel are five players on a 23-man roster. Throw in Jarry, and we still have 17 roster spots to fill. Can we get younger with those 17 spots? YES! But not if we start the process of trading with P.O. Joseph! Then you are literally going backwards.

Trade:
- Reilly Smith. Another victim of Mike Sullivan, imo. He is this year's Tanner Pearson. Stanley Cups elsewhere mean nothing if you can't play Mike Sullivan hockey. I think we can get a second-round pick and maybe a long-range or AHL prospect.

- Lars Eller. He has value, but that second year on his contract could make it tricky. I would look for a one-for-one deal for a player who can step in and contribute. Aatu Raty in Vancouver would be great. Could we get Nikolai Kovalenko in Colorado? I doubt it. They tried Eller already, and it did not really work. But we can get a deal done here.

- Chad Ruhwedel. For the love of all things unholy, move on from this Mike Sullivan favorite. Get a draft pick and move on. His right-handedness and reputation are selling points.

- Matt Nieto. He is on the comeback trail. Also a player whose reputation is good. Edmonton wanted him last July, but he chose Pittsburgh. Get a late pick and move on.

- Alex Nedeljkovic. I think he has value now. Teams would likely take him over Jake Allen right now, based on 2023-24 performance. But Montreal's GM is pro-active, so will Dubas take advantage of Ned's strong season? Get a pick back, or a young prospect. Then, next year you can maybe try Blomqvist as the backup or bring in a vet. Even Fleury could work for a year. Yeah yeah I know. We need to get younger. But the backup goaltender is the last roster spot where youth is important. Personally, I would just try Blomqvist and have a strong third-string option in WB/S.

- Marcus Pettersson. So far, the decisions were super easy. This one is not. But after thinking about it recently, it would make sense to maximize on Pettersson's career season. He is by far our best left defenseman. He also plays a position where we actually have organizational depth. LD and G might be the only positions where that is the case. Graves is pretty much unmovable, AND you should never sell low. Get his game going and hope he turns it around. Joseph needs to get a shot. Play him as a top four and see what you have. Ludvig can play either side, but he is probably better on the left side, too. And then we have Pickering coming and a few decent prospects behind him (the two Finns, for example). I think we can get a first and a prospect for Pettersson. If you can, do it. If teams want to low-ball, you keep him obviously.

- Bryan Rust. This is the guy we need to find a taker for. I think if we moved Rust, we could then re-sign Guentzel. And that makes sense. You keep the better winger, and you keep the younger winger. But this is up to Rust. Dubas said he has not asked anybody to waive. OK, it is time, Kyle. Ask. Find out. He has value, but you cannot simply trade him to Winnipeg. He has trade protection. You might have to trade him to the Rangers. But the Rangers have a glaring hole at right wing and would probably offer a lot for him. Make the call, Kyle. Find out.

And now Guentzel. Personally, I think we should keep him. BUT, four assets would change my mind. If Edmonton really wants him, Broberg, a first, Holloway/Bourgault/Lavoie and an NHL player is what it takes. He is the best player available. Milk that.

Now, will guys like Karlsson, Crosby, Malkin and Letang hate this? Maybe. But what they probably hate more is having Vinnie Hinostroza, Colin White and Jansen Harkins filling out the roster.

So, Dubas needs to make change. He has been way too patient. Trade the veterans and bring in youngsters. Then you can send those youngsters to the AHL when Sullivan demands White, Harkins and Hinostroza to return to Pittsburgh because they play the right way. Rinse. Repeat.

Also, Dubas's quote regarding Sullivan sounded more like a man whose hands are tied, and has zero power to make a coaching change than a man who is 100 percent behind his coaching staff.

Thank you, Fenway.

Sadly, I think they view Rust as one of the "Core" guys
 
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I find it so laughable that this idea that the Pens are going to start getting younger means Sid has to be gone. What a load of crap. There are what, TWO players on this roster under 26? Every journeyman Dubas recalls is either 26 or 25 years old. Hell, even re-signing Guentzel would not necessarily mean we can't get younger. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Karlsson and Guentzel are five players on a 23-man roster. Throw in Jarry, and we still have 17 roster spots to fill. Can we get younger with those 17 spots? YES! But not if we start the process of trading with P.O. Joseph! Then you are literally going backwards.

Trade:
- Reilly Smith. Another victim of Mike Sullivan, imo. He is this year's Tanner Pearson. Stanley Cups elsewhere mean nothing if you can't play Mike Sullivan hockey. I think we can get a second-round pick and maybe a long-range or AHL prospect.

- Lars Eller. He has value, but that second year on his contract could make it tricky. I would look for a one-for-one deal for a player who can step in and contribute. Aatu Raty in Vancouver would be great. Could we get Nikolai Kovalenko in Colorado? I doubt it. They tried Eller already, and it did not really work. But we can get a deal done here.

- Chad Ruhwedel. For the love of all things unholy, move on from this Mike Sullivan favorite. Get a draft pick and move on. His right-handedness and reputation are selling points.

- Matt Nieto. He is on the comeback trail. Also a player whose reputation is good. Edmonton wanted him last July, but he chose Pittsburgh. Get a late pick and move on.

- Alex Nedeljkovic. I think he has value now. Teams would likely take him over Jake Allen right now, based on 2023-24 performance. But Montreal's GM is pro-active, so will Dubas take advantage of Ned's strong season? Get a pick back, or a young prospect. Then, next year you can maybe try Blomqvist as the backup or bring in a vet. Even Fleury could work for a year. Yeah yeah I know. We need to get younger. But the backup goaltender is the last roster spot where youth is important. Personally, I would just try Blomqvist and have a strong third-string option in WB/S.

- Marcus Pettersson. So far, the decisions were super easy. This one is not. But after thinking about it recently, it would make sense to maximize on Pettersson's career season. He is by far our best left defenseman. He also plays a position where we actually have organizational depth. LD and G might be the only positions where that is the case. Graves is pretty much unmovable, AND you should never sell low. Get his game going and hope he turns it around. Joseph needs to get a shot. Play him as a top four and see what you have. Ludvig can play either side, but he is probably better on the left side, too. And then we have Pickering coming and a few decent prospects behind him (the two Finns, for example). I think we can get a first and a prospect for Pettersson. If you can, do it. If teams want to low-ball, you keep him obviously.

- Bryan Rust. This is the guy we need to find a taker for. I think if we moved Rust, we could then re-sign Guentzel. And that makes sense. You keep the better winger, and you keep the younger winger. But this is up to Rust. Dubas said he has not asked anybody to waive. OK, it is time, Kyle. Ask. Find out. He has value, but you cannot simply trade him to Winnipeg. He has trade protection. You might have to trade him to the Rangers. But the Rangers have a glaring hole at right wing and would probably offer a lot for him. Make the call, Kyle. Find out.

And now Guentzel. Personally, I think we should keep him. BUT, four assets would change my mind. If Edmonton really wants him, Broberg, a first, Holloway/Bourgault/Lavoie and an NHL player is what it takes. He is the best player available. Milk that.

Now, will guys like Karlsson, Crosby, Malkin and Letang hate this? Maybe. But what they probably hate more is having Vinnie Hinostroza, Colin White and Jansen Harkins filling out the roster.

So, Dubas needs to make change. He has been way too patient. Trade the veterans and bring in youngsters. Then you can send those youngsters to the AHL when Sullivan demands White, Harkins and Hinostroza to return to Pittsburgh because they play the right way. Rinse. Repeat.

Also, Dubas's quote regarding Sullivan sounded more like a man whose hands are tied, and has zero power to make a coaching change than a man who is 100 percent behind his coaching staff.

Thank you, Fenway.

 
Dubas pretty much not going to be a fire sale. It sounds like he’s going with the half measure which is unlikely to rebuild or make us competitive. Just more purgatory. I hope I’m wrong there.
 
Sadly, I think they view Rust as one of the "Core" guys

There is no doubt that he was considered that with his NMC. But does Rust want to play the rest of this contract and not play in the playoffs? He gets the same money no matter where he plays.

If I am Rust, I would want to win more championships.

Also, he is still a very good player and they better get back good assets. I don't believe in just giving players away. The point is to get younger and rebuild the prospect pool.
 
My guess is that's the sentiment with all of the core guys, and probably why they are happy to keep Sullivan. And why they haven't taken themselves of the PP.

Well evidently at least one of them doesn't get the luxury to make that decision, himself.

But hey at least it fixed the powerplay.

*checks notes*

Oh.
 
I still wonder if the players are also pulling for Sully. They’re in the their late 30s and maybe they don’t want to be challenged? Just trying to make sense out of this.
I think this is without question happening. These guys have set their legacies in concrete. I would like to see them win one more and put themselves in that unquestioned class of stars, but that's just probably not going to happen. They enjoy being together, people will continue to show up to games and purchase stuff, they just got a new TV deal, their owners have infinitely deep pockets...life is good. If none of them wins another thing from here on out, no one would say anything.

As I said earlier in this thread, there are a multitude of timelines working in direct contrast with each other. The best thing for this team right now is hitting the NUKE button, and the only reason I said this is because Geno looks old and Karlsson looks oblivious. We have their contracts for a few more years. We are still carrying 2.5m in dead cap for 2 more years with Johnson and Petry. We have no picks. We have no prospects.

This moment right here, if Dubas can turn this team into a team that can make and compete in the playoffs, it will be a masterclass in NHL GMing.
 
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I think this is without question happening. These guys have set their legacies in concrete. I would like to see them win one more and put themselves in that unquestioned class of stars, but that's just probably not going to happen. They enjoy being together, people will continue to show up to games and purchase stuff, they just got a new TV deal, their owners have infinitely deep pockets...life is good. If none of them wins another thing from here on out, no one would say anything.

As I said earlier in this thread, there are a multitude of timelines working in direct contrast with each other. The best thing for this team right now is hitting the NUKE button, and the only reason I said this is because Geno looks old and Karlsson looks oblivious. We have their contracts for a few more years. We are still carrying 2.5m in dead cap for 2 more years with Johnson and Petry. We have no picks. We have no prospects.

This moment right here, if Dubas can turn this team into a team that can make and compete in the playoffs, it will be a masterclass in NHL GMing.
I think Geno is here, realistically, only next season. His contract is for two more seasons but the salary dips a lot the fourth year in anticipation (I think by Hextall and probably Geno) that he would retire and they would trade his contract to another team…
 
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Jake's definitely the big piece, and most pressing asset to move, but there are other assets that can definitely bring in value. Petts can for sure get you a 1st+ imo. But if you're moving Jake and Petts, you're just going full dismantle, and this team's too proud, cowardly and stupid for that.
 
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l would actually be curious as to what the fanbase would want more - Sid to only wear one sweater, or for them to trade Sid and return a bunch of picks.
 
l would actually be curious as to what the fanbase would want more - Sid to only wear one sweater, or for them to trade Sid and return a bunch of picks.
That's easy. One sweater. It's not even a question in my mind. Sid is not only a generational talent but also a generational human. I've never seen an athlete go out of his way so often no matter the cause. Youth hockey, children's hospital, etc, etc, etc.
If Sid's asked to participate in a non-team related event, activity, he's there. Doesn’t matter what else he has going on in his life.
 
l would actually be curious as to what the fanbase would want more - Sid to only wear one sweater, or for them to trade Sid and return a bunch of picks.

Well I'm a fan of the Penguins first and the players second.

But right now I really despise this team and the direction they have chosen.

So I'm leaning towards "let Sid go win somewhere else that is serious about being a competitive team as opposed to a monument to Mike Sullivan." Though it would be weird/awful to see him in a different sweater. So IDK.
 
I would prefer the team dismantle things around Sid if he wants to stay, but dismantle things regardless. I also wouldn't hold it against Sid to want to go elsewhere and chase one final Cup, but I really don't think he'd want to leave.

But this team's gotta accept reality and that reality is that the window's been closed for years, and it's time to start moving forward toward competing again down the road. Again, if Sid's fine puttering around on a miserable team (big change from what's happening lately lol) and he wants to stick with the one team thing, he's earned that right. If he wants out because he would like his final years to mean something as far as competing goes, he's also earned that right.
 
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I don't feel bad for Sid at all, he's partially responsible for this mess by simply being okay with it.
Interesting comment. We all know he's super competitive and I'm sure everyone on the team would love to win another cup (or with Karlsson, his first) but at the same time, Sid has achieved everything one possibly can in this league. Every trophy, every championship, and he keeps climbing the points/goals ladder and will end up top 10 most likely.

While we are sitting here thinking "they HAVE to put a good team around him...for Sid!", maybe Sid doesn't see it that way. Maybe he's okay with the team restocking with youth for the next generation at the expense of winning a cup. I could see the "mentor" role being the final piece of his legacy.

Malkin is a guy that I think is okay with not winning a cup as long as he thinks he's playing well and contributing to the team. Letang, who knows. Karlsson likely wants to win since he hasn't.

If Sid is truly okay with the "sell and restock with youth" it actually makes several decisions A LOT easier.
l would actually be curious as to what the fanbase would want more - Sid to only wear one sweater, or for them to trade Sid and return a bunch of picks.
One sweater. Easy choice. Unless Sid specifically asked to be traded, then I would want them to honor the request. But Sid says he wants to stay in Pit, so I think what we want is irrelevant. I think it's an unspoken agreement for Sid, Geno, and Letang to retire in Pens jerseys.
 
Guentzel out for a package around a 1st and good prospect, Pettersson out for a 2nd and decent prospect, and Smith and Nedejlkovic out for a couple mid round picks or whatever is a start. Let guys like Poulin, Puustinen etc play with the big boys for the rest of the year and see if they make the most of it. Draft the best players available regardless of position. Maybe look into moving Rust and Rakell in the offseason. This is the time to start loading up on draft picks and hoping a bunch of them hit. It ought to be a very different looking team next year.

Ultimately, I think they will end up trading Malkin and Letang before their contracts are up, but based on everything Sid has ever said, I think he's a Penguin until he retires. I see him reupping for 8.7 mil AAV for a couple more seasons after next year and 87 going into the rafters not long after. Maybe he'll get to play the Mario role for whoever ends up being the Pens' next captain.
 
Malkin is a guy that I think is okay with not winning a cup as long as he thinks he's playing well and contributing to the team. Letang, who knows. Karlsson likely wants to win since he hasn't.

Malkin has said on multiple occasions that the biggest goal left in his career is to be the only Russian with 4 Cups.

He's doing a piss poor job of that by being a good little soldier for Napoleon Beanpot but that's what he says, at least.
 
The downfall of teams like the Kings, Hawks and now Pens is always giving too many guys the "core" tag. The only core guys should be your original lottery picks and pillars of the franchise. You can't get attached to the other guys.
 
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