Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[SEALBound]

I don't think there's a shred of physical evidence of this from anywhere in the organization.

But in psychology, there are mountains of evidence for "escalation of commitment" and/or the "sunk cost fallacy." It's basic human behavior true of absolutely everyone.

I honestly don't think the longer-term commitment is an issue. If you fire Sullivan, he's going to get picked up pretty quick which alleviates you of his contract.

The only thing that I can see is "we believe in Sullivan and truly honestly believe that he is the right man to lead the team into the new era" mentality. Which is wrong for a lot of reasons. Right now, Sullivan is the worst possible one to be in charge of the development of our soon-to-be-had young guys.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Someone just posted elsewhere that the Pens had a scout at a Charlotte Checkers game this weekend…what prospects do the Panthers have that we would be interested in?

I don't think you can read much into this. Could be a situation where the scout was scheduled to be in the Charlotte area 4 months ago as part of their regular rotation. Media people flip out all the time over this "OMG THERE WAS A XYZ SCOUT AT THE ____ GAME. TRADE INCOMING!!!! ZOMG!!"

When the reality is that scouts have a general schedule they adhere to. Are there exceptions? Certainly, but you can't read much into this stuff. There are no diamonds in the rough when it comes to hockey players. Everyone knows who the prospects are in the age of the internet.

 

[HandshakeLine]

There may be no diamonds in the rough, but why are we still picking/claiming/trading for useless players?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I don't think you can read much into this. Could be a situation where the scout was scheduled to be in the Charlotte area 4 months ago as part of their regular rotation. Media people flip out all the time over this "OMG THERE WAS A XYZ SCOUT AT THE ____ GAME. TRADE INCOMING!!!! ZOMG!!"

When the reality is that scouts have a general schedule they adhere to. Are there exceptions? Certainly, but you can't read much into this stuff. There are no diamonds in the rough when it comes to hockey players. Everyone knows who the prospects are in the age of the internet.

Yep. Rule of thumb is if it's just a scout, it's standard operating procedure.

If it's a GM or assistant GM, there might be something more.

 

[SEALBound]

Someone just posted elsewhere that the Pens had a scout at a Charlotte Checkers game this weekend…what prospects do the Panthers have that we would be interested in?

They have NO ONE. Unless they are looking for a AHL swap of sorts. They played the Marlies but even then...no on there I that would make sense for us.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

There may be no diamonds in the rough, but why are we still picking/claiming/trading for useless players?

I don't have time to create such a doctorate thesis, but let's do a 10,000 foot overview:

- Sully liked the bottom 6 and was given certain players to start the season
-Dubas' history indicated he likes to churn through those bottom 6's if they aren't cutting it
- Sully's inability to find those bottom guys that play EXACTLY like he wants them to aren't really a function of ability/talent. It's basically the fact that only 1% of available regular NHLers are able to eat such deployment before they become worn out by it. Think about it. Name the 1 bottom 6 guy you can say "Exceeded expectations"? That would be Eller. ANd even he's starting to get ground down with such crappy deployment and linemates
- So when players begin to crumble, it's assumed "he's not an NHL regular". Well in some cases, that MAY be true, but the fact that those players have successful (not necessarily productive) roles on other teams leads you to believe that they are indeed NHL players, it's just they cannot succeed in Sully's system
- Dubas brings in new bottom 6 guys and the cycle starts all over again
- I'm awaiting the articles by the idiot local media to say "Eller sucks". I expect that article any day now. No, Eller is a good hockey player who gets put in the meat grinder every damn game

 

[66-30-33]

They have NO ONE. Unless they are looking for a AHL swap of sorts. They played the Marlies but even then...no on there I that would make sense for us.

Sully would play a scrub AHL er at the top 6.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Speaking of Eller (who I like just fine) I'm really loving him getting like 1:30 a game on the powerplay.

That'll fix it. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Ryder71]

He’s open to making more poor decisions.

Not at all, he just needs to sell off at the deadline. It all comes down to that. He will be judged on the next couple of weeks. He needs to trade Jake for a big return. Sell off Smith and maybe Petts if the return is tremendous. Trade NEJ ALSO.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

You know who 1) has sticktoitiveness 2) has a high compete level 3) plays the right way 4) plays low-event hockey 5) is from Massachusetts 6) is available? Zach Sanford.

 

[Ryder71]

You must have zero experience in the business world. Because people are granted title/salary/etc yet due to "politics" have little to no power to make certain maneuvers due to nepotism, cronyism, etc.

I don't think ownership or upper management believe Sullivan is the problem. It would take a lot for him to be removed. That said, if Dubas really believed Sully was an issue He could push for his removal. But it seems as though he likes Sully quite a bit so...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You know who 1) has sticktoitiveness 2) has a high compete level 3) plays the right way 4) plays low-event hockey 5) is from Massachusetts 6) is available? Zach Sanford.

 

[Ryder71]

There may be no diamonds in the rough, but why are we still picking/claiming/trading for useless players?

Grasping at straws, hoping to find found money. But unlikely to result in anything that's helpful. Maybe trying to appear as though you're leaving no stone unturned to the fan base and factoring in the limited cap space this is our reality.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I don't think ownership or upper management believe Sullivan is the problem. It would take a lot for him to be removed. That said, if Dubas really believed Sully was an issue He could push for his removal. But it seems as though he likes Sully quite a bit so...

I'm not seeing this.
I'm also not seeing that he hates Sully either.

Name the last GM though that said anything public that they dislike their coach. Just doesn't happen, so you're attempting to prove that something isn't happening/evidence of absence, which is a logical fallacy

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I'm not reading through a bunch of pages of garbage so I'll just ask - is there actual proof of this or is this merely "well I just think that..."?

No actual proof. A big time hunch joining into the conspiracy of fellow posters.

I don't think there's a shred of physical evidence of this from anywhere in the organization.

But in psychology, there are mountains of evidence for "escalation of commitment" and/or the "sunk cost fallacy." It's basic human behavior true of absolutely everyone.

Basically my answer here.

You must have zero experience in the business world. Because people are granted title/salary/etc yet due to "politics" have little to no power to make certain maneuvers due to nepotism, cronyism, etc.

Quoting this statement in agreement.

Some combo of psychology and politics. I just don't think Sully holds the cards.

Similar to how Brad Treliving wanted to fire Sutter but got shot down by ownership.
I view that being the same for Sully. After this year if they don't make it though. I hope Sully gets either let go or moved up the ranks.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm not seeing this.
I'm also not seeing that he hates Sully either.

Name the last GM though that said anything public that they dislike their coach. Just doesn't happen, so you're attempting to prove that something isn't happening/evidence of absence, which is a logical fallacy

I've heard recent interviews where he goes out of his way to rave about Sully. As opposed to not saying anything at all. He volunteered it without being prompted, so, if you're not seeing this maybe you're not listening to Dubas directly. Thus, I don't see Sully going anywhere. Truthfully I think ppl clamoring for him to be removed is very overstated and largely a pipe dream.

 

[SEALBound]

I've heard recent interviews where he goes out of his way to rave about Sully. As opposed to not saying anything at all. He volunteered it without being prompted, so, if you're not seeing this maybe you're not listening to Dubas directly. Thus, I don't see Sully going anywhere. Truthfully I think ppl clamoring for him to be removed is very overstated and largely a pipe dream.

I think a part of that, though, is a GM not wanting to publically trash his coach. How many times have we ever seen that?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I've heard recent interviews where he goes out of his way to rave about Sully. As opposed to not saying anything at all. He volunteered it without being prompted, so, if you're not seeing this maybe you're not listening to Dubas directly. Thus, I don't see Sully going anywhere. Truthfully I think ppl clamoring for him to be removed is very overstated and largely a pipe dream.

Again, name the last time a coach was trashed publicly by his GM.
I'll wait....

 

[Ryder71]

Again, name the last time a coach was trashed publicly by his GM.
I'll wait....

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Listen, I just stated that Dubas praised Sully. You can interpret that any you want. But he went out of his way to do it. Sullivan isn't going anywhere. I'm not saying if he was upset with Sully he would throw him under the bus. It's likely he wouldn't say anything at all. And time and time again he praises him.

I think a part of that, though, is a GM not wanting to publically trash his coach. How many times have we ever seen that?

Again, he could have said nothing at all. But if you're disenchanted with him I doubt you make a point to praise him.

 

[Andy99]

I think it's way more likely that Sullivan gets another 3-year extension than he gets fired lol....unfortunately it looks like he's here over the next three seasons so get excited about losing, no scoring, lots of unskilled players playing in our top six, a total lack of development of our young players and cliches galore!

 

[Ryder71]

I think it's way more likely that Sullivan gets another 3-year extension than he gets fired lol....unfortunately it looks like he's here over the next three seasons so get excited about losing, no scoring, lots of unskilled players playing in our top six, a total lack of development of our young players and cliches galore!

PPL who want him fired just don't understand how revered he is within the organization. Now, maybe that changes, but I don't see it changing for quite some time.

 

[Josey Wales]

PPL who want him fired just don't understand how revered he is within the organization. Now, maybe that changes, but I don't see it changing for quite some time.

If & when He is fired it better not be The Old Boys Network like BBQ Bruce Boudreau, Gerard Gallant, Craig Berube or Todd MacCellan

 

[AuroraBorealis]

God The Sullivan hate is so bonkers The Sullivan Haters are now trying to rehab Abylsma, Good Lord

You got this thing where you think that every move managers and coaches make must be correct, because they are professionals.
This couldn't be further from the truth. They make stupid moves all the time. Sullivan has proved it the last 2 years. Hextall proved it thoroughly as well.
Zohorna and Nylander are not worse players than Harkins for example. White is not a better player than Pitlick.
Ludvig and Shea are not better players than Ty Smith this year.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Speaking of Eller (who I like just fine) I'm really loving him getting like 1:30 a game on the powerplay.

That'll fix it. Brilliant stuff.

I was actually just thinking about this.

I like the player and he's exceeded my expectations in his role.

But the guy has never been an offensive dynamo. Reirden giving a guy like that quality PP minutes when the PP already can't do a damned thing for no other apparent reason than he coached him in Washington is just more embarrassing nepotism at the expense of the on-ice product.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You got this thing where you think that every move managers and coaches make must be correct, because they are professionals.
This couldn't be further from the truth. They make stupid moves all the time. Sullivan has proved it the last 2 years. Hextall proved it thoroughly as well.
Zohorna and Nylander are not worse players than Harkins for example. White is not a better player than Pitlick.
Ludvig and Shea are not better players than Ty Smith this year.

I mean... if guys with fancy titles attached to their names never screwed up then this team would still be coached by like Eddie O with Craig Patrick in the GM chair.

Appeals to authority are lame.