Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[Sidney the Kidney]

I remember a few games back when the Penguins won a couple of games in relatively "meh" fashion against one flat out terrible team and one so-so team and there were some people strutting around here flinging insults about what a bunch of doo-doo heads we all were for doubting these titans of the sport. That was fun. Where ya'll at?

"Guys, we've turned a corner! Look how awesome we were in December!"

No, that's called a hot streak, like every team goes through. The difference between us and good teams is that we tend to immediately follow those 7-2-1 "hot" streaks with cold streaks where we go 2-8 in the next 10 games, whereas good teams follow it up with a "meh" period of 5-4-1.

 

[The Old Master]

Here's the slightly depressing part though - I did some research on every prospect and draft pick we gave away since 2007. I judge prospects on total NHL games played and production. And on the draft picks, I judged the player that was taken and each player taken 5-10 slots after our selection because you never really know how our scouts had guys ranked.

The sad truth is that very, VERY little of what we have given away over the last 17 years amounted to anything meaningful. Here are the highlights:
1. 2015, our 1st was flipped from Edmonton to NYI and they took Barzel. But that 1st got us Perron, who got us Hagelin, who was instrumental in our resurgence in the b2b, so...
2. The 7th we gave to Ottawa in 2011 for Alexei Kovalev was used on Ryan Dzingel.
3. In 2017, we used our first to get Reaves+2nd. That was 31OV and Klim Kostin was selected who is a 4th line player. At 39OV, Jason Robertson was taken. Now that said, JR said they would have taken Zack Lauzon anyway so...irrelevant.
4. The 1st in 2018 was flipped from OTT to NYR and they took K'Andre Miller who is a decent dman for NYR right now.
5. The 1st in 2020 was used on Kapanen. It was 15OV. At 19OV, Dawson Mercer was taken.

That's about it. Seriously. None of the prospects we've ever given away have amounted to anything and very, very few of the picks amounted to anything of value. Really, only the 2020 1st IMHO was the miss. I thought a 1st for Kapanen was too much.

But looking at who we got with most of those picks and prospects, were win-now, help-now guys. Each of whom provided significantly more value than the prospect or pick given up for them.

Some of the player-for-player trades, such as Hags for Pearson or Pearson for Gudbranson, are debatable but, ultimately, a little lost.

point of information; while I'm amazed at the work you have done. I'm not a big fan of reinventing history. we can speculate lots of different scenarios of what might have happened. but we will never really know. because there could have been a lot of trades that would change everything. moving up or down or adding other players.imo

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Gimme a coach who is gonna drop a nice recreational hit of acid and zone out while listening to Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck & The Flecktones, letting guys like Sid, Geno and EK do their thing around the ice and not giving a f*** about expected goals share or whatever metric.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

"Guys, we've turned a corner! Look how awesome we were in December!"

No, that's called a hot streak, like every team goes through. The difference between us and good teams is that we tend to immediately follow those 7-2-1 "hot" streaks with cold streaks where we go 2-8 in the next 10 games, whereas good teams follow it up with a "meh" period of 5-4-1.

The other big difference is this team's winning streaks still have the stink of mediocrity to them. It's usually a bunch of "meh" to bad teams and the Penguins usually kinda fumbledick their way through them. I don't remember too many dominating wins in recent years. Certainly not statement wins. This team consistently comes up small in what should be big or "must win" situations. That's a good way to measure what they are made of and they always fall well short.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The other big difference is this team's winning streaks still have the stink of mediocrity to them. It's usually a bunch of "meh" to bad teams and the Penguins usually kinda fumbledick their way through them. I don't remember too many dominating wins in recent years. Certainly not statement wins. This team consistently comes up small in what should be big or "must win" situations. That's a good way to measure what they are made of and they always fall well short.

Kind of like that "must win" 3-2 OT squeaker against the powerhouse Canadiens just before the break?

 

[SEALBound]

point of information; while I'm amazed at the work you have done. I'm not a big fan of reinventing history. we can speculate lots of different scenarios of what might have happened. but we will never really know. because there could have been a lot of trades that would change everything. moving up or down or adding other players.imo

Oh for sure, you never know what could have happened in an alternate reality. I'm just fighting back against the "JR, Hextall, and Dubas gave away all these picks and prospects and that's why we don't have depth or success right now" narrative.

 

[chethejet]

If Jake is done, that just means he is not going to be moved for the best package. Oh well, So much for that, Now it is about what and maybe if Dubas will expend big money for him. I oppose giving out longer term contracts for a team in decline. they fact remains moving players is still the goal in a rebuild.

 

[Ryder71]

Don't think Jakes seriously hurt, hope not, no more clarity yet?

 

[Freeptop]

Mate, remember when the Pens enticed Pesonen to come over and then the most usage he got was the 4th line, they got a bloke that had top 6 talent and then tried him on the 4th line. You’d think I was talking about Mike Sullivan, but that was Sullivan 1.0 - Disco Dan.

I'm not disagreeing in general, but I feel compelled to note that all of Pesonen's NHL games came when Therrien was still head coach. Technically, Bylsma played him in the top six quite a bit down in Wilkes-Barre.
But Pesonen's last game in Pittsburgh was on January 16th, 2009. Bylsma was promoted to head coach on February 15th, 2009.

 

[PensFutures]

I'm not disagreeing in general, but I feel compelled to note that all of Pesonen's NHL games came when Therrien was still head coach. Technically, Bylsma played him in the top six quite a bit down in Wilkes-Barre.
But Pesonen's last game in Pittsburgh was on January 16th, 2009. Bylsma was promoted to head coach on February 15th, 2009.

They put him with Malkin and Sykora and expected him to be the Malone of that line. It never worked, he went to the 4th line. Then demoted and broke the WBS points record.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm not disagreeing in general, but I feel compelled to note that all of Pesonen's NHL games came when Therrien was still head coach. Technically, Bylsma played him in the top six quite a bit down in Wilkes-Barre.
But Pesonen's last game in Pittsburgh was on January 16th, 2009. Bylsma was promoted to head coach on February 15th, 2009.

Yeah possibly mixed up the coach. I may have been thinking Tangradi and remembered Pesonen as well and mixed up some stuff late last night.

 

[Freeptop]

Yeah possibly mixed up the coach. I may have been thinking Tangradi and remembered Pesonen as well and mixed up some stuff late last night.

It's not like there weren't plenty of other examples along the way!

It's not like it's limited to Bylsma and Sullivan, in any case. It's actually a pretty rare coach that is willing to put young and inexperienced prospects directly into the top six on teams with playoff aspirations. It seems to mostly happen with coaches recently promoted from the AHL, so they already had some direct experience with the players in question before they reached the NHL. Otherwise, it seems to only happen with teams that are definitely rebuilding.

Really, NHL coaches in general are just far too conservative, and most of them are too scared to really try something new unless someone else proves it can work first.

The sad fact is, Sullivan has enough job security that he should be able to take the risk of trying out young players in prominent roles. Especially right now, when it looks like they're not making the playoffs anyway - why not take a swing for the fences? Just one more reason why it's time to make a change in coaching, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

So guentzel being out may make Dubas job easier on what way to go.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Curious how the team responds. Usually with Sid or Geno out they have stepped up and played a well structured game.

@Honour Over Glory your boy is back

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Curious how the team responds. Usually with Sid or Geno out they have stepped up and played a well structured game.

@Honour Over Glory your boy is back

How much do you want to bet Sullivan will put Puustinen on the third line? Which means the call up is typical wasted players by Sullishit.

FYI - Gruden in 4 games played more PK minutes total than Harkins has in 30+ games total. This is why Gruden deserved a shot over Harkins for a while.

Hino deserved to play over White as well. Puustinen's a Geno winger or a waste on the third line where no one succeeds.

 

[Zirakzigil]

How much do you want to bet Sullivan will put Puustinen on the third line? Which means the call up is typical wasted players by Sullishit.

Could be, but maybe he replaces Jake on the PP.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Could be, but maybe he replaces Jake on the PP.

Watch Sullivan put Rakell or Smith instead.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

This could end up being a real nightmare for those of you who are passionately anti-Sullivan.

He has an excuse now. He can point to losing Jake prevented them from finding their footing to make a full push to make the playoffs. And, as a collective, they can convince themselves that they can make some roster changes (Rakell, Smith, etc.) and then try again next year with Sullivan at the helm.

I'm not saying I believe any of that -- but that will be an argument put forward now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This could end up being a real nightmare for those of you who are passionately anti-Sullivan.

He has an excuse now. He can point to losing Jake prevented them from finding their footing to make a full push to make the playoffs. And, as a collective, they can convince themselves that they can make some roster changes (Rakell, Smith, etc.) and then try again next year with Sullivan at the helm.

I'm not saying I believe any of that -- but that will be an argument put forward now.

It would be on-brand for them.

You can ALWAYS find excuses. And teams like this one who have sunk into a loser mentality and refuse to make some difficult but long-necessary changes are gonna be rootin' around extra diligently to find whatever they can grab hold of.

 

[SomeDude]

This could end up being a real nightmare for those of you who are passionately anti-Sullivan.

He has an excuse now. He can point to losing Jake prevented them from finding their footing to make a full push to make the playoffs. And, as a collective, they can convince themselves that they can make some roster changes (Rakell, Smith, etc.) and then try again next year with Sullivan at the helm.

I'm not saying I believe any of that -- but that will be an argument put forward now.

If the organization is that stupid, they deserve to keep him and fade into obscurity as the city forgets about them again.

 

[Ryder71]

Best thing for this team now is to lose out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's funny that people act like FSG needs an excuse to defend Sullivan and keep him.

 

[BusinessGoose]

It's funny that people act like FSG needs an excuse to defend Sullivan and keep him.

For sure. But now local media can assuage the unwashed masses.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Man, as if management and coaching wasn't already shit, our best trade chip gets Injured. This team can't have anything go right for them

 

[MayorofWBS]

This could end up being a real nightmare for those of you who are passionately anti-Sullivan.

He has an excuse now. He can point to losing Jake prevented them from finding their footing to make a full push to make the playoffs. And, as a collective, they can convince themselves that they can make some roster changes (Rakell, Smith, etc.) and then try again next year with Sullivan at the helm.

I'm not saying I believe any of that -- but that will be an argument put forward now.

You might find a someone for Smith since he's one and done. Rakell isn't going anywhere with that term. He's not movable now or over this offseason.

That Guentzel announcement really sucks. We just took a hit there. Our trade return is just swirling in the toilet now. This **** show of a team just can't get out of it's own way.