Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[KrisLetAngry]

Flames are 1 point out of the playoffs. Kardi is the better player and plays the more important position. Flames arent worried about cap space.

Also sorry a separate reply.

Flames are 3 points back with 3 games already played more than the Kings.

So even If the Kings go for a .500 3/6 points that makes them 6 points back.

Just wanted to also mention this.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm not gonna freak out if Jake is still here post deadline. At the end of the day the assets we'd get for moving him aren't moving the rebuild needle in any meaningful way so whatever.

 

[Andy99]

The only reasons I want to move Jake are below.

1. Our top six is the same build of "undersized, "light forecheckers", effort not skill" types and Rust, Rakell, and Smith all have bloated contracts that won't return us anything.

2. He is potentially not re-signing. If he re-signs before the deadline, I'm fine keeping him.

Yeah I’m at the point where I’m just fed up that we re-signed top six wingers like Rust and Rakell at age 30 and brought in a 32-year-old Smith…that wasn’t the way to go if youre keeping the core together…needed to get a lot younger next to them…my main concern is just how old we are…got to stop resigning 30+ players somewhere…Rust has a NMC, Rakell and Smith aren’t worth their contracts…when is enough enough…I feel like the organization is punting on trying by just bringing back the old guys at this point,,,the core I was fine with, just not the surrounding wingers

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not gonna freak out if Jake is still here post deadline. At the end of the day the assets we'd get for moving him aren't moving the rebuild needle in any meaningful way so whatever.

I would have taken the Kuzmenko deal Calgary got for Lindholm for Jake.

If we can get something similar, I'd be happy. Say Kayilev or Grundstrom out of LA and a similar prospect and pick return.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Our top 6 wingers were absolutely worth trying this year given how they performed last year, but the mix isn't right.

No shame in that, it just has to be tweaked...but not by moving the only one of them who's knocked it out of the park this season.

 

[Andy99]

Our top 6 wingers were absolutely worth trying this year given how they performed last year, but the mix isn't right.

No shame in that, it just has to be tweaked...but not by moving the only one of them who's knocked it out of the park this season.

Can you move the others? Doubtful without it costing an asset…maybe Smith because Dubas can always pitch that he never fit here and has a track record of success elsewhere, plus only one more year left…Rust has NMC for another season and Rakell has too many years left on a contract he hasn’t lived up to…so yeah, we’re gonna knock it back next year with the same top six that couldn’t finish last season, can’t finish this season and yet, what, we’re expecting a big turnaround? Definition of an insane organization lol…if you really want to help Sid win, you gotta give to get

 

[Coastal Kev]

Our top 6 wingers were absolutely worth trying this year given how they performed last year, but the mix isn't right.

No shame in that, it just has to be tweaked...but not by moving the only one of them who's knocked it out of the park this season.

Yes, that's called selling high and how you get the most in return.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

hen isn't the logical choice to try to fix the PP before throwing in the towel?

No, because the PP is what's holding them back from a playoff spot. Fixing it is not enough to win 4 series.
Two different things.

 

[Pancakes]

I would have taken the Kuzmenko deal Calgary got for Lindholm for Jake.

If we can get something similar, I'd be happy. Say Kayilev or Grundstrom out of LA and a similar prospect and pick return.

I mean sure. If they do it fine. Don't think it matters a ton either eat though.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah I’m at the point where I’m just fed up that we re-signed top six wingers like Rust and Rakell at age 30 and brought in a 32-year-old Smith…that wasn’t the way to go if youre keeping the core together…needed to get a lot younger next to them…my main concern is just how old we are…got to stop resigning 30+ players somewhere…Rust has a NMC, Rakell and Smith aren’t worth their contracts…when is enough enough…I feel like the organization is punting on trying by just bringing back the old guys at this point,,,the core I was fine with, just not the surrounding wingers

Couple points to make (but not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you):
1. I don't have a problem with us resigning Rust and Rakell to their deals nor trading for Smith. In a vacuum, each of them are solid top 6 wings when they are performing. Rakell hit 60pts last year including 28 goals. We need that. What we don't need in 3 of 4 top 6 wings underperforming regularly. As we know at this point, likely a coaching issue but it is what it is. At the beginning of the year, Smith was hot. Rust was hot. Rakell wasn't but he is now that he's back. What we need out them is consistency. We know they are all capable of more.

2. We have to go for late 20's, early 30's guys for a couple of reasons: A. They are RFAs until 27/28. From 18 to 27, they are usually good value wings to the teams that have them and thus are not available or they have a heavy price tag that we can't afford (and shouldn't be affording). B. It takes awhile to perform at the level that makes them a good candidate for a trade - like Rakell. C. You only get the young guys you draft. 2 of 4 are draftees for us - Jake and Rust. We benefited greatly from high-value contracts from them for years. Rust at $5mil is still a good value. Smith had what he had but it's not like $5mil is outrageous for him. Rakell you can question but looking at comparables, he got the going rate. None of these guys are obvious misses like a Jack Johnson or Rob Scuderi.

3. They seem to all have similar skill sets but at the same time, it's hard to find top 6 quality wings with different skill sets. There aren't many Patty Hornys or Matt Tkachuks out there that can provide that valuable skill set that's not what you see from who we have. Those players are highly coveted unless you want to take a chance on a guy like Armia or Greenway.

What would really help us is another Sheary, meaning a guy we pluck from the NCAA for free that provides a top 6 wing skillset and chemistry. Ideally, someone "like" ZAR but that has the impact of what Sheary did.

 

[Andy99]

Couple points to make (but not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you):
1. I don't have a problem with us resigning Rust and Rakell to their deals nor trading for Smith. In a vacuum, each of them are solid top 6 wings when they are performing. Rakell hit 60pts last year including 28 goals. We need that. What we don't need in 3 of 4 top 6 wings underperforming regularly. As we know at this point, likely a coaching issue but it is what it is. At the beginning of the year, Smith was hot. Rust was hot. Rakell wasn't but he is now that he's back. What we need out them is consistency. We know they are all capable of more.

2. We have to go for late 20's, early 30's guys for a couple of reasons: A. They are RFAs until 27/28. From 18 to 27, they are usually good value wings to the teams that have them and thus are not available or they have a heavy price tag that we can't afford (and shouldn't be affording). B. It takes awhile to perform at the level that makes them a good candidate for a trade - like Rakell. C. You only get the young guys you draft. 2 of 4 are draftees for us - Jake and Rust. We benefited greatly from high-value contracts from them for years. Rust at $5mil is still a good value. Smith had what he had but it's not like $5mil is outrageous for him. Rakell you can question but looking at comparables, he got the going rate. None of these guys are obvious misses like a Jack Johnson or Rob Scuderi.

3. They seem to all have similar skill sets but at the same time, it's hard to find top 6 quality wings with different skill sets. There aren't many Patty Hornys or Matt Tkachuks out there that can provide that valuable skill set that's not what you see from who we have. Those players are highly coveted unless you want to take a chance on a guy like Armia or Greenway.

What would really help us is another Sheary, meaning a guy we pluck from the NCAA for free that provides a top 6 wing skillset and chemistry. Ideally, someone "like" ZAR but that has the impact of what Sheary did.

I hear you..it takes more assets to trade for younger players or RFAs…depends…some aren’t going to be QO’d by their former teams and we could take a chance on those guys…yeah, we’re not trading for a Tkachuk but while we were trading 2nds and thirds at the deadline, and players like Marino, we could have gotten some equally good young wingers back…also there have been players in FA who have been 27 and we didn’t sign those, such as Bunting, Barbashev…instead we’re signing over age 30 players…FA is tough for us anyway because we’re not a premier destination…

 

[SEALBound]

If we want a different skill set, one trade we could try is sending Smith to LA for Grunstrom. Then sign Brenden Lemieux next year.

Or...muahahahahahaha...

Huberdeau for Graves+Rakell
Smith for Grunstrom

Jake-Sid-Rust
Huberdeau-Malkin-Grunstrom
DOC-Eller-Yager
Nieto-Accairi-Puljujarvi

Petts-Letang
POJ-Karlsson
Ludvig-Shea or whoever

Plenty of room to find a 2LD.

 

[SEALBound]

I hear you..it takes more assets to trade for younger players or RFAs…depends…some aren’t going to be QO’d by their former teams and we could take a chance on those guys…yeah, we’re not trading for a Tkachuk but while we were trading 2nds and thirds at the deadline, and players like Marino, we could have gotten some equally good young wingers back…also there have been players in FA who have been 27 and we didn’t sign those, such as Bunting, Barbashev…instead we’re signing over age 30 players…FA is tough for us anyway because we’re not a premier destination…

I will echo that I've been disappointed in our returns. Marino for Smith+3rd is depressing. I honestly can't remember the last time I thought we got good value for someone. I imagine Marino's contract was a killer. But yeah, I was high on the Bunting train but he's honestly having a similar season to Smith where fans feel his play is underwhelming vs expectations. Bunting is 28, Smith is 30. Raks was 28. Rust was 28. All three were historically better than Bunting too so I mean, it's hard to get too upset.

Barbashev is a little different as he never made it to free agency. Vegas liked him from the playoffs and chose to keep him which is what made Smith (who was not that great in the playoffs) expendable to us for cheap.

I still wish we could have snagged Kubalik from FA when Chicago didn't give him a QO. Or traded Kapanen for him. Realistically though, unless we find a Niskanen/Schultz/etc where an underperforming player finds his game here, we need to draft well. I don't know of anyone out there really that's available that's worth pursuing. I've suggested Bertuzzi and Kakko. Guys like that could turn it around here.

 

[Freeptop]

I'm at the point where I'm ready to trade either of Rakell or Smith out just to make space for Poulin. Neither of them are producing all that much, so it's not like Poulin is likely to be any worse offensively. Meanwhile, Poulin has earned a call-up at this point. Plus, Poulin at least has the potential to be someone that could be planted in front of the net on the power play. And if he can do that effectively, a better power play would mean the playoffs. And if he isn't effective there, the Pens have gotten some picks and/or prospects back to help for the future.

With regards to Guentzel - the problem there is that if the Pens trade him, you're more likely to be getting back a package that is equivalent to Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and a late first round pick (that ends up being a bust), than you are to getting back a Forsberg, and the only way such a trade helps the Pens in the near term is that if they're getting back a Forsberg-level player. So I can understand the Pens' reticence to just throw in the towel and trade away their most productive winger if they think there's even a chance of making the playoffs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not gonna freak out if Jake is still here post deadline. At the end of the day the assets we'd get for moving him aren't moving the rebuild needle in any meaningful way so whatever.

What are you talking about? We could draft another Poulin or Pickering with the pick we get for trading Jake and that's like adding a guaranteed 4th line/3rd pairing player to the roster in 5 years time!

 

[Gurglesons]

What are you talking about? We could draft another Poulin or Pickering with the pick we get for trading Jake and that's like adding a guaranteed 4th line/3rd pairing player to the roster in 5 years time!

I think the concept would be getting a cost controlled player for this year and next versus paying Jake 9+mil or losing him for nothing.

 

[HandshakeLine]

What are you talking about? We could draft another Poulin or Pickering with the pick we get for trading Jake and that's like adding a guaranteed 4th line/3rd pairing player to the roster in 5 years time!

People draft players of Jake quality in that spot all the time though (or as Jake himself shows, in later rounds). The problem isn't getting picks, it's who we pick and why.

 

[SomeDude]

People draft players of Jake quality in that spot all the time though (or as Jake himself shows, in later rounds). The problem isn't getting picks, it's who we pick and why.

Even if you draft well, it doesn’t mean anything when the coach won’t play them until they are 28.

If Mike Sullivan was around in 05-06, Sid would be back in Rimouski cutting his teeth while the great Brian Holzinger was signed to a 6 year deal to lead this team to glory.

 

[orby]

I officially think they should trade Guentzel. Even if they somehow sneak into the playoffs, this team is getting smacked to the ground by any legitimate contender. What's the point? Get a first rounder and a really good prospect and then offer Jake a ton of money in the off-season as a UFA if you really want him.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I officially think they should trade Guentzel. Even if they somehow sneak into the playoffs, this team is getting smacked to the ground by any legitimate contender. What's the point? Get a first rounder and a really good prospect and then offer Jake a ton of money in the off-season as a UFA if you really want him.

For real. Also, putting Jake on a real playoff team would be doing him a favor.

 

[chethejet]

A big if that Jake is moved but Pens don't make up these games in hand and now Dubas has to move jake for the best offer. Dubas is actually as active and maybe more the GMJR was. So yes weather this TDL or the off season, there will be changes. Smith is not a player that is in demand but if Jake is moved, he still has value in the top 9. Jake has to bring back a package of a 1st, top prospect and decent LW. Contract of Rust just handcuffs Dubas but Rust will be moved after next year. Dubas makes on more run here after this year and then he has to rebuild the roster.

Rust, Geno, and Karlsson bring back needed picks and maybe a couple nice prospects. I sense Sid wants to play past the contract date. Olympics in 2026 is want he wants so at least 2 more years after this. Sid. Yager and Poulin may be the centers in 2025/26.

 

[Darren McCord]

So no call ups?

White and Harkins are absolutely awful.

Harkins
33gp 0g 4a -3 14 pim
White
6gp 0g 0a +1 0

even is you wont play Puusy they have better options for the bottom 6 (Not great but better)

Hinnie
14gp 1g 2a -3 4 pim
Zohorna
31gp 4g 3a 0 16 pim

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

People draft players of Jake quality in that spot all the time though (or as Jake himself shows, in later rounds). The problem isn't getting picks, it's who we pick and why.

The bolded was kind of my point. Other teams may use those picks effectively, but the Pens keep picking Sullivan's new ZAR or Ruhwedel replacement with those picks.

It's almost like the organization prioritizes looking for players the coach wants versus looking for players who actually have the most skill.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, that's called selling high and how you get the most in return.

But nothing you get in return is going to help us anytime soon.

 

[eXile3]

People draft players of Jake quality in that spot all the time though (or as Jake himself shows, in later rounds). The problem isn't getting picks, it's who we pick and why.

No they don’t. Teams do not consistently draft 40 goal scorer’s late in the 1st and certainly not in the 3rd round. In fact their chances of becoming NHL players aren’t great.