Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about hockey"

[HandshakeLine]

Good lord Carter only has 7 points in 40 games this year. The wheels have completely fallen off with him. The rapid decline he saw from the first half of the 21-22 season to now is staggering, it's insane he went from "guy pacing for 55 points in a 2C role with Malkin out" to "likely wouldn't even be a top-6 guy in the AHL" in basically 2 years.

It’s crazy how it played out exactly as I said it would.

But yeah, selling makes absolutely the most sense right now as does firing the coach and really rethinking how to get this core in a position for one last long shot Cinderella story postseason.

 

[WickedWrister]

Good lord Carter only has 7 points in 40 games this year. The wheels have completely fallen off with him. The rapid decline he saw from the first half of the 21-22 season to now is staggering, it's insane he went from "guy pacing for 55 points in a 2C role with Malkin out" to "likely wouldn't even be a top-6 guy in the AHL" in basically 2 years.

Yeah he's washed, but I actually think he's playing a little better than last year. Like I notice him moving his feet a lot more and that's supported by the data tracking. But yeah, the decline from 2021 has been astonishing.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s crazy how it played out exactly as I said it would.

But yeah, selling makes absolutely the most sense right now as does firing the coach and really rethinking how to get this core in a position for one last long shot Cinderella story postseason.

It's hilarious how many people on this forum defended that deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Five goals, though!

On this team that's downright top six material!

Carter has been declining for a while, but it bottoming out like it has is still a bit surprising. The signs of decline were there, but he was still producing decently well up through the trade deadline last year (despite getting caved analytically in 2022-2023). The bottom has just fallen fell out since then.

I think he was about a 0.5 PPG player up until the end of 2022. Since then, he's at like a 0.2 PPG player.

It’s crazy how it played out exactly as I said it would.

But yeah, selling makes absolutely the most sense right now as does firing the coach and really rethinking how to get this core in a position for one last long shot Cinderella story postseason.

It's not surprising the deal aged horribly, it's just a bit surprising how atrociously bad Carter ended up. Him falling off isn't surprising, him falling off to "probably not even a top-6 AHLer at this point" is a bit surprising.

The dude was still on pace for about 40 points 13 months ago, he just fell off a cliff at that point.

 

[Gurglesons]

Carter has been declining for a while, but it bottoming out like it has is still a bit surprising. The signs of decline were there, but he was still producing decently well up through the trade deadline last year (despite getting caved analytically in 2022-2023). The bottom has just fallen fell out since then.

I think he was about a 0.5 PPG player up until the end of 2022. Since then, he's at like a 0.2 PPG player.

It wasn't shocking at all. It was a terrible contract the day it was signed.

What's even more bizarre is we had Rodrigues who we could've given that money to and been in a very good spot. And even then I would've argued that was an overpay for what Rodrigues brought.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Carter has been declining for a while, but it bottoming out like it has is still a bit surprising. The signs of decline were there, but he was still producing decently well up through the trade deadline last year (despite getting caved analytically in 2022-2023). The bottom has just fallen fell out since then.

I think he was about a 0.5 PPG player up until the end of 2022. Since then, he's at like a 0.2 PPG player.

I dunno. I'm not trying to be contentious but I thought it was pretty obvious that Carter was the kind of player that would fall off quick. I get that he produced some points even past his asinine contract extension but I think at least some of that was from overabundance of opportunity. This team has REALLY gone out of it's way to treat the guy like some kind of cult hero. They announced one of his five goals this year over the PA as BIG JEFF CARTER FFS.

 

[Andy99]

Bozo.... reminds me of the big one. One bozo to rule them all. HCMS Bozo.
Not watching until the bozo is gone and a serious move has been made in that organization. Could be next week, could be never.

At this point, I’d guess never lol…at least never as long as Sid is playing for the Pens

 

[SEALBound]

It wasn't shocking at all. It was a terrible contract the day it was signed.

What's even more bizarre is we had Rodrigues who we could've given that money to and been in a very good spot. And even then I would've argued that was an overpay for what Rodrigues brought.

The temper tantrums people on this board threw over ERod...

I'd kill to have him in the lineup right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

I dunno. I'm not trying to be contentious but I thought it was pretty obvious that Carter was the kind of player that would fall off quick. I get that he produced some points even past his asinine contract extension but I think at least some of that was from overabundance of opportunity. This team has REALLY gone out of it's way to treat the guy like some kind of cult hero. They announced one of his five goals this year over the PA as BIG JEFF CARTER FFS.

It wasn't even that. You acquire Jeff Carter, you get him producing on the cheap, and you let him walk. Those are exactly the types of deals that look great.

Keeping him in the expansion draft made sense. Re-signing him made none.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The temper tantrums people on this board threw over ERod...

I'd kill to have him in the lineup right now.

To be fair I think a lot of that was him being used as Crosby's RW for a time. Which... yeah... he didn't look good there. But obviously I'd way rather have given Platinum Jeff's money to him. Then and especially now.

It wasn't even that. You acquire Jeff Carter, you get him producing on the cheap, and you let him walk. Those are exactly the types of deals that look great.

Keeping him in the expansion draft made sense. Re-signing him made none.

Oh no doubt. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Initial trade was fine... getting attached to the guy was utterly baffling. All the way around. Team and fans.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Five goals, though!

On this team that's downright top six material!

FIVE UV EM!!!!!!!


...How many ASS is that worth in Errey math again?

 

[molon labe]

What's also amazing about Carter's production is:
- This team plays slow a shitty. You'd think he'd - idk being the veteran goalscorer - actually perform better this year than the last few. We play to his strengths.

- He's in incredible shape for his age. Didn't realize it until that rando locker room shot where the guy looked utterly shredded.

So the fact he can't do anything at all here - he'd be worse on any other team - that's astonishing, because it's bad here.


2C 2C 2C 2C - come on Kyle do something.

Highlight of the season would be firing the whole coaching staff and selling anything not bolted down (Sid/Geno/Letang). New look. Fresh everything next year. This season seems utterly cooked and the longer he waits the more I keep going back to that 1 roster move 1 depth bullshit GM's love to make - which ain't doing a hot damn thing for this team. They need a soul purging at this point.

 

[SEALBound]

To be fair I think a lot of that was him being used as Crosby's RW for a time. Which... yeah... he didn't look good there. But obviously I'd way rather have given Platinum Jeff's money to him. Then and especially now.



Oh no doubt. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Initial trade was fine... getting attached to the guy was utterly baffling. All the way around. Team and fans.

He had two signings here. He first came over with Sheary for Kuhan. People lost their minds because he wasn't a big-name player. He was an HS in the playoffs due to depth. Then we traded him for Kapanen but then signed him in FA and people lost their minds. I specifically remember a group of RFAs that were not qualified, and there was obvious speculation about where each would go. I remember Hinostranza being on that list. We nabbed Jankowski and ERod, and...as you might remember...people here were livid.

Even when ERod was covering for Malkin and doing exceptionally well, this board ate him up like ERod shit on their floor. Then when put in the bottom 6, people scoured him for not producing like he did in the top 6.

The fact is, he was the epitome of "depth" that we really needed, and he's proven to be a very capable player everywhere he's gone. Unfortunate that we could not hold on to him. But that said, this board's reaction to him was absolutely bizarre.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I dunno. I'm not trying to be contentious but I thought it was pretty obvious that Carter was the kind of player that would fall off quick. I get that he produced some points even past his asinine contract extension but I think at least some of that was from overabundance of opportunity. This team has REALLY gone out of it's way to treat the guy like some kind of cult hero. They announced one of his five goals this year over the PA as BIG JEFF CARTER FFS.

Yeah, I thought it was glaringly obvious that Carter benefited enormously from the reduced travel and season during the pandemic and he looked positively done by January in the first real season back. It’s one of the reasons I remain super skeptical about any sort of “pacing” argument.

 

[pistolpete11]

Granted I haven't watched this team in a while, but considering the complaints I've read here about how not good this team is, wouldn't not buying/selling make the most sense?

Hextall wasn't criticized because he was trying to both contend and rebuild the prospect pool at the same time. Hextall was criticized because he absolutely butchered their depth while not really improving the prospect pool at the same time. It wasn't Hextall's strategy that was widely criticized, it was that he was shit at his job and did a bad job at both aspects of his strategy.

Huh? Hextall was absolutely criticized for buying Granlund. That was like the biggest thing that people pointed to when they wanted to fire him. That or the Carter contract.

I also think he should have traded Dumo. That would have been addition by subtraction given Dumo's play last year and they had the LD to replace him, especially when they traded for Kulikov. But with Dumo's reputation, they probably would have got a 2nd or 3rd or something for him.

This year, if they can't extend Jake or feel like they won't be able to, he absolutely needs to be traded. Smith should also be on the trading block. If anybody wants Acciari, Nieto, Carter, etc., it's a no-brainer. If they really fall out of it, I think you could add Jarry, Ned, Rakell, Rust (if he would waive), Graves.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Huh? Hextall was absolutely criticized for buying Granlund. That was like the biggest thing that people pointed to when they wanted to fire him. That or the Carter contract.

I also think he should have traded Dumo. That would have been addition by subtraction given Dumo's play last year and they had the LD to replace him, especially when they traded for Kulikov. But with Dumo's reputation, they probably would have got a 2nd or 3rd or something for him.

This year, if they can't extend Jake or feel like they won't be able to, he absolutely needs to be traded. Smith should also be on the trading block. If anybody wants Acciari, Nieto, Carter, etc., it's a no-brainer. If they really fall out of it, I think you could add Jarry, Ned, Rakell, Rust (if he would waive), Graves.

That's my point. He was criticized for doing a shitty job, not because his strategy of "try to contend while also building up the prospect pool". The thing that got him criticism was destroying the Penguins depth and making a bunch of bad trades/signings, not that he was both trying to focus on the future while also trying to win now.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

With how the cap is if you bring Guentzel back you’re just running back the same roster but a year older. I don’t think this is always true but for this team - if you’re not gonna buy, then you gotta sell. Time to rip the band aid off.

 

[molon labe]

Huh? Hextall was absolutely criticized for buying Granlund. That was like the biggest thing that people pointed to when they wanted to fire him. That or the Carter contract.

I also think he should have traded Dumo. That would have been addition by subtraction given Dumo's play last year and they had the LD to replace him, especially when they traded for Kulikov. But with Dumo's reputation, they probably would have got a 2nd or 3rd or something for him.

This year, if they can't extend Jake or feel like they won't be able to, he absolutely needs to be traded. Smith should also be on the trading block. If anybody wants Acciari, Nieto, Carter, etc., it's a no-brainer. If they really fall out of it, I think you could add Jarry, Ned, Rakell, Rust (if he would waive), Graves.

Not selling Dumo. Yet another oof. He was that veteran depth piece teams would have paid a draft pick for.

I just don't get it. Holding your guy til the Summer never works out. There are too many voices in the players' head.

Even now, why would Jake's agent tell him to ask to be traded? That means the team Jake is going to will be noticeably WEAKER when he gets there. If he holds out, someone else can sign him for free. So the best thing he can personally do is tell the organization nothing and pray he stays in Pittsburgh. He also stands to make more money on a 7 year deal than an 8....because as has been pointed out before: When Jake is 36, one year veteran goal-scorer depth deals might be 5-6M a year depending on salary cap. Crazy? Not really. Those players make 3M today with a flat cap. So it behooves Jake to sign for 7 and cash in on another 1-2 year deal at the end.

So yeah, it's in THIS TEAMS best interest to either sign him long term now, or deal him. Holding him is stupid. I personally think selling him is the best option available. No slight to his NYR series where Sid nearly beat them with Jakes help - the team as it stands is simply not good enough therefore we are better off restructuring and Jake is the only piece available we can gain great futures or a significant roster piece for. I've also advocated for Geno on Sid's wing and it's a hill I'll continue to die on. I see Geno absorbing Jake's prodution TOMORROW if that were the case - at a significant cap savings.

Even with no other moves: Rust - Sid - Geno is cheaper than Rust - Sid - Jake today. Let alone when Jake gets his 9-10M/season pay raise. Is his performance going up with that raise? Nope. Just paying more for the same. Save that money, promote Geno - and use your cap to build a threatening 2nd line. That of course will also involve sending Rakell/Smith out but one step at a time and Jake is low hanging fruit.

 

[SEALBound]

Three acceptable options:
1. Resign Jake to the best deal possible. Zero issue with that.
2. Trade Jake with the intention of not resigning him to get the best possible return - 1st + high-end prospect being the key return items.
3. Trade Jake for a smaller return as a rental with the intention of resigning him on July 1st.

Keeping him as "our rental to make a push" should be a fireable offense if he does not resign here.

If I'm Dubas, I clear as much as I can. There's enough in WBS and on the trade market to fill gaps well enough. My dream: Jake, Smith, Acciari, Nieto, POJ, and Neds all dealt.

Rakell-Crosby-Rust
DOC-Malkin-Puustinen
Zohorna-Eller-Puljujarvi
White-Poulin-Carter

Petts-Letang
Graves-EK
Ludvig-Rudwedel-Smith

Jarry-Blomqvist/Hellberg

Not that hard to make a semi suitable team with existing members. This would not take into account anyone that we get back in trade obviously. We also have Nylander. This gives us roughly: 1st, 2nd, 2 4ths, 2 3rds, and a high-end prospect and likely at least one roster player to go into FA and the draft with. This also makes it likely we finish bottom 10 so we keep our 1st. I do think this route puts us in the best possible position moving forward on nearly all fronts.

 

[vikingGoalie]

so we are gonna get to decision time here soon.
dubas gonna push more chips into the middle or walk away and fold?

I can't see it and I can see it, that being Crosby leaving the team and pursuing another cup.
If we are truly blowing this thing up that's the guy to trade, you would get a king's ransom for him and Crosby would probably get another cup depending on the landing spot. I don't think Crosby wants out which is the only way that would happen, and I most definitely don't want to see him on another team. But at what point do you call a turkey a turkey and re-build in earnest?

 

[Phil68]

If jake guentzel is to be traded, what do you guys think of columbus blue jackets send Chinakov a 1st and Jiricek for Jake?

 

[vikingGoalie]

If we are not rebuilding, we need another center. Malkin is not capable of handling 2C duties for an entire season. Father time has seen to that. He can still morph into super beast werewolf mode at times, but it's becoming less frequent and for less effect. Just the way it goes when ya get old. Thing is how the heck do we get a legit 2C so we can put Malkin on wing? Not saying Malkin is the source of "all" our problems but it's a glaring need if we want any kind of run.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If we are not rebuilding, we need another center. Malkin is not capable of handling 2C duties for an entire season. Father time has seen to that. He can still morph into super beast werewolf mode at times, but it's becoming less frequent and for less effect. Just the way it goes when ya get old. Thing is how the heck do we get a legit 2C so we can put Malkin on wing? Not saying Malkin is the source of "all" our problems but it's a glaring need if we want any kind of run.

IMO they could have addressed this any number of ways over the course of the last several seasons but just kicked the can down the road over and over and assumed that dude could still carry tweeners at near 40. Dumb but that's kinda all the decisions this team has been making for a while, now.

Hell with the kind of low-event garbage Sullivan likes to play... just stick Malkin with Crosby and run three mediocre tweener centers after the first line.

There is no kind of run IMO. Just try to get some cool moments out of the two guys that have carried this franchise for over 15 years before they gotta go.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Center depth is certainly an issue. Lack of wings that can play an effective game is an issue. But I have no faith in us bringing in a new 2C or a new top 6 wing and seeing anything different than what we have now. We just don't have a coach with the head for any kind of changes.

I mean, if they were serious about actually doing anything, they'd have fixed the powerplay long ago instead of letting it limp along at a historic all-time low.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Center depth is certainly an issue. Lack of wings that can play an effective game is an issue. But I have no faith in us bringing in a new 2C or a new top 6 wing and seeing anything different than what we have now. We just don't have a coach with the head for any kind of changes.

I mean, if they were serious about actually doing anything, they'd have fixed the powerplay long ago instead of letting it limp along at a historic all-time low.

Yeah but you can't fire THE Todd Reirden!

...said no sane man with two eyes and a functioning brain ever.