Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[tom_servo]

Karlsson fell into their lap for basically free, my dude--or as free as someone of Karlsson's caliber gets. It cost the team a nobody prospect, two inflated contracts/cap dumps, a backup goalie, a 1st and a 2nd. They didn't go out big game hunting and bag a superstar, a superstar forced his way to Pittsburgh (lol of all places). Karlsson wanted out of San Jose and it was down to Pittsburgh and Carolina, and Carolina didn't even have a genuine interest. It was a matter of Dubas shifting around cap for guys nobody wanted so he could fit Karlsson. I love the pick up, but people acting like the team snapped him up out of the blue are being disingenuous imo.

I'd be fine keeping Jake if Sid didn't have a year and a half of hockey left before he got to decide whether to keep plodding around on a bottom feeder or retire. The shitty part is that this is all happening at just about the worst possible time. The team's been circling the drain for years, they're gonna be fighting tooth and nail to be a team hovering around a WC spot from here on out.

I don't know. Keeping Jake (while I realize it's a near-100% chance to happen) seems asinine. Driven by sentiment and a refusal to accept that this team's f***ing washed. I'll take a 1st and a Yager-tier or better prospect for Jake and run with it. He's not the difference between this team competing and not, and I don't really care about his point totals given the opportunity that's heaped upon him by being stapled to Sid's hip and given top PP time.

Karlsson's gonna be a lot less of a bargain if this team is really bad. Which they could be if they ship off talent too soon. Of course they could also be bad with a full roster. Too early to say.

They'll be fighting for the playoffs this year and next, that's true. That's actually the normal state for most teams. I'd bet their average finishes over the past five years still stack up pretty high league wide. Not yet what I'd call circling the drain. Disappointing though they've been.

I don't think Jake's been as good as his numbers but to sell him for straight futures? If we could get a younger dude who scores less but fills the Hornqvist role I'd definitely listen.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Karlsson's gonna be a lot less of a bargain if this team is really bad. Which they could be if they ship off talent too soon. Of course they could also be bad with a full roster. Too early to say.

They'll be fighting for the playoffs this year and next, that's true. That's actually the normal state for most teams. I'd bet their average finishes over the past five years still stack up pretty high league wide. Not yet what I'd call circling the drain. Disappointing though they've been.

I don't think Jake's been as good as his numbers but to sell him for straight futures? If we could get a younger dude who scores less but fills the Hornqvist role I'd definitely listen.

This team has been on a steady and relatively steep decline since 2018. They couldn't beat two teams actively and openly taking last spring with their playoff appearance streak on the line in do or die situations. They are already bad in that they're a team in the bottom third of the league. They just haven't reached the point of being genuinely terrible yet.

Your best return is going to be for futures, I think. You're not going to get a better producer or better fit for a UFA Jake, imo. Definitely not a younger guy.

What's the risk in dealing Jake? They miss the playoffs for the rest of Sid's career? Shit, they might already be with or without Jake. May as well take the best return you can get to try and soften the blow of the post-Sid era as best you can as opposed to hanging on to him with white knuckle grip due to emotional attachment. /shrug

 

[Ulf5]

Karlsson fell into their lap for basically free, my dude--or as free as someone of Karlsson's caliber gets. It cost the team a nobody prospect, two inflated contracts/cap dumps, a backup goalie, a 1st and a 2nd. They didn't go out big game hunting and bag a superstar, a superstar forced his way to Pittsburgh (lol of all places). Karlsson wanted out of San Jose and it was down to Pittsburgh and Carolina, and Carolina didn't even have a genuine interest. It was a matter of Dubas shifting around cap for guys nobody wanted so he could fit Karlsson. I love the pick up, but people acting like the team snapped him up out of the blue are being disingenuous imo.

I'd be fine keeping Jake if Sid didn't have a year and a half of hockey left before he got to decide whether to keep plodding around on a bottom feeder or retire. The shitty part is that this is all happening at just about the worst possible time. The team's been circling the drain for years, they're gonna be fighting tooth and nail to be a team hovering around a WC spot from here on out.

I don't know. Keeping Jake (while I realize it's a near-100% chance to happen) seems asinine. Driven by sentiment and a refusal to accept that this team's f***ing washed. I'll take a 1st and a Yager-tier or better prospect for Jake and run with it. He's not the difference between this team competing and not, and I don't really care about his point totals given the opportunity that's heaped upon him by being stapled to Sid's hip and given top PP time.

Quite astute for a dummy.

 

[tom_servo]

This team has been on a steady and relatively steep decline since 2018. They couldn't beat two teams actively and openly taking last spring with their playoff appearance streak on the line in do or die situations. They are already bad in that they're a team in the bottom third of the league. They just haven't reached the point of being genuinely terrible yet.

Your best return is going to be for futures, I think. You're not going to get a better producer or better fit for a UFA Jake, imo. Definitely not a younger guy.

What's the risk in dealing Jake? They miss the playoffs for the rest of Sid's career? Shit, they might already be with or without Jake. May as well take the best return you can get to try and soften the blow of the post-Sid era as best you can as opposed to hanging on to him with white knuckle grip due to emotional attachment. /shrug

They just got lucky with Karlsson though, so why wouldn't you give them a season?

The risk of selling Jake is pretty obvious if you're a team who missed the playoffs by one point.

I do understand the seeming futility of entering the postseason as anything less than a locked on favorite.

Maybe I'm just not HF material. I've seen no shortage of middle pick-rich teams amount to nothing. Not really in a hurry to be one. They'll be drafting very high soon enough, maybe in '26. That's when the picks will matter.

I'm expecting nothing quicker than an eight/ten year turnaround on contending again so it's possible others don't see it that way.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This team has been on a steady and relatively steep decline since 2018. They couldn't beat two teams actively and openly taking last spring with their playoff appearance streak on the line in do or die situations. They are already bad in that they're a team in the bottom third of the league. They just haven't reached the point of being genuinely terrible yet.

Your best return is going to be for futures, I think. You're not going to get a better producer or better fit for a UFA Jake, imo. Definitely not a younger guy.

What's the risk in dealing Jake? They miss the playoffs for the rest of Sid's career? Shit, they might already be with or without Jake. May as well take the best return you can get to try and soften the blow of the post-Sid era as best you can as opposed to hanging on to him with white knuckle grip due to emotional attachment. /shrug

There will be no softening of that blow...which is the entire point.

Give the most successful core of their era - the most enduring trio on one team in the history of NA sports - every chance to succeed. We committed to that the moment we committed to re-signing Malkin and Letang. After they're gone, stink up the joint and collect lotto picks.

A mid round 1st or two is not going to soften anything.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Quite astute for a dummy.

I'm just ready for this team to finally start making smart decisions. Even if it means having to make a tough choice emotionally.

I think it's safe to say the "win now at all costs" approach was the right one for a long time with this team, but that's in the past at this point.

They just got lucky with Karlsson though, so why wouldn't you give them a season?

The risk of selling Jake is pretty obvious if you're a team who missed the playoffs by one point.

I do understand the seeming futility of entering the postseason as anything less than a locked on favorite.

Maybe I'm just not HF material. I've seen no shortage of middle pick-rich teams amount to nothing. Not really in a hurry to be one. They'll be drafting very high soon enough, maybe in '26. That's when the picks will matter.

I'm expecting nothing quicker than an eight/ten year turnaround on contending again so it's possible others don't see it that way.

It's not me not setting a deadline. Jake's deal being up this summer is setting the deadline. If he makes it through the TDL while still with the team, they are absolutely going to lock themselves into some dumb as shit deal, with regard to both term and AAV, with a very restrictive NTC. If they don't, he walks, because this is his last chance at a huge deal before retirement. And he'll get it, whether it's here or somewhere else.

Getting something for Jake rather than handcuffing themselves to a "jeez, this sucks, how do we get any value for this dork?" situation in a couple more years seems like a no-brainer. Even if that something is just a later 1st rounder and a Yager-tier prospect, or two Yager-tier prospects. The only reason to keep him is because the team is too emotionally attached to the guy, not wanting to face reality that this team's closer to a top-5 pick than not even with Jake on board, and that it might make Sid grumpy. I think it's the absolute wrong decision to hold on to him past the TDL, it'd be as dumb as the contract the Caps just handed Wilson--you're paying top dollar for the worst years of a guy's career, and wringing any value out of the asset to boot. I realize Jake's much better than Wilson, but both moves are driven by emotion and a refusal to accept reality. Dubas should already be working the phones to gauge interest in a possible deal in a few months.

 

[66-30-33]

Karlsson's gonna be a lot less of a bargain if this team is really bad. Which they could be if they ship off talent too soon. Of course they could also be bad with a full roster. Too early to say.

They'll be fighting for the playoffs this year and next, that's true. That's actually the normal state for most teams. I'd bet their average finishes over the past five years still stack up pretty high league wide. Not yet what I'd call circling the drain. Disappointing though they've been.

I don't think Jake's been as good as his numbers but to sell him for straight futures? If we could get a younger dude who scores less but fills the Hornqvist role I'd definitely listen.

Our PP would be nice with Hyman if Oilers keep struggling and somehow Carter agrees to piss off to Oiler land.

 

[tom_servo]

I'm just ready for this team to finally start making smart decisions. Even if it means having to make a tough choice emotionally.

I think it's safe to say the "win now at all costs" approach was the right one for a long time with this team, but that's in the past at this point.

It's not me not setting a deadline. Jake's deal being up this summer is setting the deadline. If he makes it through the TDL while still with the team, they are absolutely going to lock themselves into some dumb as shit deal, with regard to both term and AAV, with a very restrictive NTC. If they don't, he walks, because this is his last chance at a huge deal before retirement. And he'll get it, whether it's here or somewhere else.

Getting something for Jake rather than handcuffing themselves to a "jeez, this sucks, how do we get any value for this dork?" situation in a couple more years seems like a no-brainer. Even if that something is just a later 1st rounder and a Yager-tier prospect, or two Yager-tier prospects. The only reason to keep him is because the team is too emotionally attached to the guy, not wanting to face reality that this team's closer to a top-5 pick than not even with Jake on board, and that it might make Sid grumpy. I think it's the absolute wrong decision to hold on to him past the TDL. Dubas should already be working the phones to gauge interest in a possible deal in a few months.

I don't really get how trading a first for Karlsson can be seen as good move but keeping Jake in the same season is a braindead move.

Especially since that price to SJ goes up the worse we are. Under the right conditions we keep the '24 if the bottom falls out and are forced to give them the '25. Not really an incentive to offload talent right now.

Depending on the final outcome, let Jake walk after the season, who cares. I'm not really moved by the market value for a rental if they're in playoff position. Nor does it do much to set the table for the next era.

A lot does ride on the specifics of his deal if they bring him back.

Our PP would be nice with Hyman if Oilers keep struggling and somehow Carter agrees to piss off to Oiler land.

Good trade, would make. Send em Jarry also.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

This team would have to be essentially already eliminated from the playoffs for them to trade Guentzel at the deadline.

What's far more likely is the team will be 7th, 8th or 9th in the playoff race and they will add at the deadline, rather than subtract.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't really get how trading a first for Karlsson can be seen as good move but keeping Jake in the same season is a braindead move.

Especially since that price to SJ goes up the worse we are. Under the right conditions we keep the '24 if the bottom falls out and are forced to give them the '25. Not really an incentive to offload talent right now.

Depending on the final outcome, let Jake walk after the season, who cares. I'm not really moved by the market value for a rental if they're in playoff position. Nor does it do much to set the table for the next era.

A lot does ride on the specifics of his deal if they bring him back.


Good trade, would make. Send em Jarry also.

My assumption is that with the cap jumping, he'll be getting closer to $9 million AAV than $7 million AAV, with enough term to make him feel comfortable in this being the last huge deal of his career. Of course, coupled with the customary iron clad NTC to ensure they get some garbage like Galchenyuk and POJ in two more seasons.

I'm not sure whether re-signing him to an asinine contract or letting him walk for free is the dumber outcome tbh. Trade the dork.

This team would have to be essentially already eliminated from the playoffs for them to trade Guentzel at the deadline.

What's far more likely is the team will be 7th, 8th or 9th in the playoff race and they will add at the deadline, rather than subtract.

Isn't the team in such a bind with the cap that they have to send down Hinostroza to call up Blomqvist? What are they adding that makes any difference at the deadline?

 

[66-30-33]

I don't really get how trading a first for Karlsson can be seen as good move but keeping Jake in the same season is a braindead move.

Especially since that price to SJ goes up the worse we are. Under the right conditions we keep the '24 if the bottom falls out and are forced to give them the '25. Not really an incentive to offload talent right now.

Depending on the final outcome, let Jake walk after the season, who cares. I'm not really moved by the market value for a rental if they're in playoff position. Nor does it do much to set the table for the next era.

A lot does ride on the specifics of his deal if they bring him back.


Good trade, would make. Send em Jarry also.

Well, Carter would be a throw in for cap reasons and not the main piece. I don't know what a full trade would look like.

 

[tom_servo]

My assumption is that with the cap jumping, he'll be getting closer to $9 million AAV than $7 million AAV, with enough term to make him feel comfortable in this being the last huge deal of his career. Of course, coupled with the customary iron clad NTC to ensure they get some garbage like Galchenyuk and POJ in two more seasons.

I'm not sure whether re-signing him to an asinine contract or letting him walk for free is the dumber outcome tbh. Trade the dork.

Isn't the team in such a bind with the cap that they have to send down Hinostroza to call up Blomqvist? What are they adding that makes any difference at the deadline?

My logic is this:

It's irresponsible to sell players (without replacement) if you're in a playoff position. This is the fallacy of asset management. If playoff entries showed under the "assets" column in the books people would think differently. Instead they somehow view the dice roll of draft picks as an asset. The reality is there's no real cashing out.

It's ok to let guys walk for free. You took your best shot in the playoffs (which enters in my mind under the "assets" column). You can simply view him as a rental. Additionally, you can actually just sign other guys.

And again, how do you reconcile the EK pickup with selling Jake in the same season.

Also why is everyone so wildly down on Jake as a player? The guy has come back from ankle surgery way sooner than expected and all he's done is lead the team in scoring. Again, I think the numbers currently flatter his game but he's also still working his way back. It's November 9.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My logic is this:

It's irresponsible to sell players (without replacement) if you're in a playoff position. This is the fallacy of asset management. If playoff entries showed under the "assets" column in the books people would think differently. Instead they somehow view the dice roll of draft picks as an asset. The reality is there's no real cashing out.

It's ok to let guys walk for free. You took your best shot in the playoffs (which enters in my mind under the "assets" column). You can simply view him as a rental. Additionally, you can actually just sign other guys.

And again, how do you reconcile the EK pickup with selling Jake in the same season.

Also why is everyone so wildly down on Jake as a player? The guy has come back from ankle surgery way sooner than expected and all he's done is lead the team in scoring. Again, I think the numbers currently flatter his game but he's also still working his way back. It's November 9.

Because Jake's f***ing abysmal defensively and away from the puck, and if Sid's sleepwalking through a game, Jake's a ghost offensively. He's not a guy you hand a retirement deal to. He's the epitome of "get what you can, while you can" for a team at the extreme twilight of their era. /shrug

I'm just talking shit. None of this matters. The team's gonna sign him to whatever he asks because they're still intent on masquerading as some sort of relevant hockey club despite not winning a round of playoff hockey in going on six years.

I just think it's f***ing dumb, but I'm bored waiting up to watch what's likely to be a rough game in LA.

 

[tom_servo]

Because Jake's f***ing abysmal defensively and away from the puck, and if Sid's sleepwalking through a game, Jake's a ghost offensively. He's not a guy you hand a retirement deal to. He's the epitome of "get what you can, while you can" for a team at the extreme twilight of their era. /shrug

I'm just talking shit. None of this matters. The team's gonna sign him to whatever he asks because they're still intent on masquerading as some sort of relevant hockey club despite not winning a round of playoff hockey in going on six years.

I just think it's f***ing dumb, but I'm bored waiting up to watch what's likely to be a rough game in LA.

I'd honestly let him finish the season and make a decision. We've had good luck with that. Trading seems out of the question but I'd rather let him go than sign to a stupid deal.

 

[ColePens]

you'd have to ask @ColePens, i haven't talked to Kirk in ... years. I might still have his email laying around somewhere, but Cole still talks to him regular AFAIK.

(but, as far as I know, Kirk is simply more concerned with family life than complaining about the Pens)

Yep - my man is chilling with dogs and his wife! Living it up and watching Geno. He's good!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'd honestly let him finish the season and make a decision. We've had good luck with that. Trading seems out of the question but I'd rather let him go than sign to a stupid deal.

I'm hoping this team continues to flounder near the bottom of the standings and then gets the guts to trade him at the TDL, so they get something for the one valuable asset they have as opposed to letting him walk for nothing. But if the choice is re-sign to a market value deal or let him walk for free, yeah, I agree with you. I'd begrudgingly chose let him walk.

They're a borderline WC team with a troublesome coach, questionable depth, and their goalie's a headcase. Odds are probably better that they don't make the playoffs again during the Sid era than winning a single round, let alone going on a run. Let 'em miss by miles. San Jose's getting a good pick either way. /shrug

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's actually insane how good analytically Zohorna has been with the Penguins. He has a 61.5% CF% and a +6.8% CF%Rel while only having a 35% offensive zone start%, that's insanely effective for his usage. He has by far the best xGF% on the team with a 68.17% xGF% and a +14.88% xGF%Rel.

I was certainly hesitant to put Zohorna as anything more than a 13th forward entering the year, but the dude has been a downright monster for the Penguins this year. This isn't just what he was in the past with the Penguins, he looks notably better now than he did in the past. He looks like he's driving play and you understand his terrific on-ice results when watching him.

Eller and Zohorna are making up 2/3 of a great 3rd line right now, both are on pace for 40 points while putting up strong analytics in a heavy defensive role. O'Connor is the clear weak link of that line, upgrading on him may make a legitimate difference maker 3rd line.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I f***ing told you so on Zohorna.

Nobody should be “surprised”, lol.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Yep - my man is chilling with dogs and his wife! Living it up and watching Geno. He's good!

Miss the guy, hope hes doing well. I hope the reason he stopped posting isnt because of what I think it is. Send him my regards!

 

[Gurglesons]

I f***ing told you so on Zohorna.

Nobody should be “surprised”, lol.

It’s wild how we acquired the only 6’7 dude in the hockey world who is physically weak as hell. Dude got owned last night.

 

[Zirakzigil]

I f***ing told you so on Zohorna.

Nobody should be “surprised”, lol.

Did you also tell us how DOC was great and just needed a chance?

Z has been great on the 3rd line, no doubt about it. He also isnt physical and got absolutely rocked last night. I felt that hit in Calgary.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It’s wild how we acquired the only 6’7 dude in the hockey world who is physically weak as hell. Dude got owned last night.

Z isn't necessarily a fast skater or a quick twitch athlete. It's not surprising he couldn't adjust to getting rocked last night.

It's actually insane how good analytically Zohorna has been with the Penguins. He has a 61.5% CF% and a +6.8% CF%Rel while only having a 35% offensive zone start%, that's insanely effective for his usage. He has by far the best xGF% on the team with a 68.17% xGF% and a +14.88% xGF%Rel.

I was certainly hesitant to put Zohorna as anything more than a 13th forward entering the year, but the dude has been a downright monster for the Penguins this year. This isn't just what he was in the past with the Penguins, he looks notably better now than he did in the past. He looks like he's driving play and you understand his terrific on-ice results when watching him.

Eller and Zohorna are making up 2/3 of a great 3rd line right now, both are on pace for 40 points while putting up strong analytics in a heavy defensive role. O'Connor is the clear weak link of that line, upgrading on him may make a legitimate difference maker 3rd line.

You could easily make a case that DOC and Hino should be switched.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You could easily make a case that DOC and Hino should be switched.

Hinostroza is probably the best option they have for the 3rd line RW spot at this point, I agree with that.

I think the ideal setup for the bottom-6 going forward is:

Zohorna-Eller-Trade
O'Connor/Nieto-Poulin-Acciari

 

[chethejet]

Z is a big body who plays soft and just can be hammered for a big body. No thanks. DOC is a little underwhelming, but he has size and plays hard on the boards, He can PK and has size, scoring touch and is a good LW who maybe can get better. Jake to me is a player I move if he asks for 9 to 10 million and Sid has to know he is near the end. I still think a physical player like a Kunitz on LW helps Sid far more now.

If Jake is asking the moon, I move him. Just spit balling here but move Smith up to Sid's LW. Move Jake since why have a LW who is expensive that can't play D isn't physical and prices himself out of town. Since Nashville needs a LW and has cap room, move him to the Preds for Trenin, Tomasino a young right shot center and put Trenin on Malkins line. I kinda like him as a physical LW who helps Malkin like Smith did. Pens retain 1 million on Jake and Preds extend jake as they have cap space. Pens can go after a LW in the off season as well. Pens also pick up cap space here to add a RD at the TDL.

Smith Sid Rust
Trenin Geno Rakell
DOC Eller Acciari
Nieto White Vinny

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Hinostroza is probably the best option they have for the 3rd line RW spot at this point, I agree with that.

I think the ideal setup for the bottom-6 going forward is:

Zohorna-Eller-Trade
O'Connor/Nieto-Poulin-Acciari

IDK if we have the cap wiggle room for a trade. I think they have enough "spare parts" to make the bottom 6 work with various combinations.