Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[ziggyjoe212]

Too many people are under the delusion that the Pens should contend. Penguins have very few good players. The depth sucks, the core players are old and past their prime. Lots of bad contracts. No good prospects or young players. The only way out of this mess is a full rebuild, which won't happen cause ownership wants to keep the big 3 together.

This team will not be a playoff team for a loooong time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well even Hextall's "big moves" were half-in shit. Petry is a whatever move. So is Granlund. Hextall never wanted to make a truly big swing because he really didn't want to move first round picks or top prospects. And I can't really blame him for that but at the same time if all he was gonna trade for was mid ass players he shoulda just said f*** it and kept all of his picks and prospects and let the team fall where they may.

But again, that wasn't really the problem with Hextall's tenure. His strategy would have been fine had he not done moronically stupid shit like "trade a 2nd for Granlund", "downgrade on defense by sending Matheson and Marino out for Petry and Rutta", "trade McCann for nothing and lose 2 quality depth players in the expansion draft instead of 1", "sign Jeff Carter to a 2 year deal at age 37" and such.

The mindset of trying to stay competitive while not hemorrhaging major picks and prospects is an entirely viable mindset and what this team should be doing. Hextall just did a dogshit job at it.

 

[SEALBound]

Honestly at this point I wonder if Dubas is trying to do stuff and it's just that nobody wants our garbage. I doubt teams are chomping at the bit to add Reilly Smith or Lars Eller.

@Gurglesons is gonna say I'm sipping from the copium straw. Maybe he's right.

Tbh though like I said earlier we have until July 2nd to see what the plan is. Not much is likely to happen after that. So I'm saving my vitriol (or praise in the off chance Dubas has a good off season) for then.

When does the new (or rather the 24-25) Salary Cap structure actually start? When does the cap officially start and when are players officially off of the books? I thought it was July 1st or whenever the Cup Finals ended but honestly it could be before that. Dubas talked a lot about more interest and possibilities once the cap actually went up.

With regards to trades, I mean if it's Detroit talking to us and Anaheim, there's a waiting game in some respects. Just because he aren't hearing about it doesn't mean stuff isn't happening behind closed doors.

We're in a nice position because all we really need is a 1LW. If you sign one guy come July 1st:

XXXX-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Geno-Rakell
Smith-Eller-DOC
Poulin-Acciari-Puljujarvi

Petts-EK
POJ-Letang
Graves-JSI

Jarry-Neds

With Pono, Yager, Koivunen, etc in the wings waiting for a chance. I imagine they get a 6/7/8 guy or two as well.

But bottom line, there's isn't TOO much Dubas HAS to do. We all want change for the sake of change. Gurgs wants Mikheyev for the pure honor of getting a 2nd round pick without any regard of how that fits the team now. Historically though, a lot of trades happen 1-2 days before the draft. We are at the correct "pace" for moves based on recent history. Relax people.

But again, that wasn't really the problem with Hextall's tenure. His strategy would have been fine had he not done moronically stupid shit like "trade a 2nd for Granlund", "downgrade on defense by sending Matheson and Marino out for Petry and Rutta", "trade McCann for nothing and lose 2 quality depth players in the expansion draft instead of 1", "sign Jeff Carter to a 2 year deal at age 37" and such.

The mindset of trying to stay competitive while not hemorrhaging major picks and prospects is an entirely viable mindset and what this team should be doing. Hextall just did a dogshit job at it.

And it took several trades to rectify it.

It will take us awhile to truly recover from the damage of the Hextall tenure.

 

[molon labe]

Too many people are under the delusion that the Pens should contend. Penguins have very few good players. The depth sucks, the core players are old and past their prime. Lots of bad contracts. No good prospects or young players. The only way out of this mess is a full rebuild, which won't happen cause ownership wants to keep the big 3 together.

This team will not be a playoff team for a loooong time.

They're already on the way. Just don't trade your draft picks.

They already have a team/coach that are primed to continually miss the playoffs....what else would you recommend they do to rebuild?

 

[Gurglesons]

Too many people are under the delusion that the Pens should contend. Penguins have very few good players. The depth sucks, the core players are old and past their prime. Lots of bad contracts. No good prospects or young players. The only way out of this mess is a full rebuild, which won't happen cause ownership wants to keep the big 3 together.

This team will not be a playoff team for a loooong time.

I have no delusion about this. Then make moves to acquire picks and acquire bad contracts for picks.

But again, that wasn't really the problem with Hextall's tenure. His strategy would have been fine had he not done moronically stupid shit like "trade a 2nd for Granlund", "downgrade on defense by sending Matheson and Marino out for Petry and Rutta", "trade McCann for nothing and lose 2 quality depth players in the expansion draft instead of 1", "sign Jeff Carter to a 2 year deal at age 37" and such.

The mindset of trying to stay competitive while not hemorrhaging major picks and prospects is an entirely viable mindset and what this team should be doing. Hextall just did a dogshit job at it.

Hextall had a 1st every year he was here and multiple picks.

He was doing well at doing the job he thought he was here to do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hextall had a 1st every year he was here and multiple picks.

He was doing well at doing the job he thought he was here to do.

Hextall did such an amazing job adding youth through picks and prospects in those years, as evidence by the glowing amount of young depth the Penguins have today.

 

[Pancakes]

But again, that wasn't really the problem with Hextall's tenure. His strategy would have been fine had he not done moronically stupid shit like "trade a 2nd for Granlund", "downgrade on defense by sending Matheson and Marino out for Petry and Rutta", "trade McCann for nothing and lose 2 quality depth players in the expansion draft instead of 1", "sign Jeff Carter to a 2 year deal at age 37" and such.

The mindset of trying to stay competitive while not hemorrhaging major picks and prospects is an entirely viable mindset and what this team should be doing. Hextall just did a dogshit job at it.

I don't think it is a viable mindset. Not really. Not when other teams that are trying to be competitive are leveraging everything they have to do so. You're inevitably gonna fall behind them when you only want to be half in. And you're also gonna fall behind the teams that are actually trying to get lottery picks too.

It's fine that the team wants to do this and I don't begrudge them doing it because I don't want Crosby or Malkin to play somewhere else. But it's definitely not in their best interests for contending to do it the way they're doing.

And imo that's totally fine like I said. It's whatever. We won three cups, and Sid deserves a chance to go out on his terms.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hextall did such an amazing job adding youth through picks and prospects in those years, as evidence by the glowing amount of young depth the Penguins have today.

I'm not sure what you were expecting Hextall to do in two years at the helm exactly.

Yager is here because of Hextall's awareness to not move a 1st.

If Hextall was still our GM we are probably adding another top 15 overall prospect to the system. That'd be Yager Pickering and another higher end prospect in the span of 3 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think it is a viable mindset. Not really. Not when other teams that are trying to be competitive are leveraging everything they have to do so. You're inevitably gonna fall behind them when you only want to be half in. And you're also gonna fall behind the teams that are actually trying to get lottery picks too.

It's fine that the team wants to do this and I don't begrudge them doing it because I don't want Crosby or Malkin to play somewhere else. But it's definitely not in their best interests for contending to do it the way they're doing.

And imo that's totally fine like I said. It's whatever. We won three cups, and Sid deserves a chance to go out on his terms.

That mindset isn't based on the idea of contending now. It's based on the idea of being sustainably competitive long-term. They're not trying to "contend", they're trying to be competitive.

The focus at this point of this strategy is for the Penguins to be a fringe playoff team while building up the prospect pool so they can remain competitive for longer and become competitive again faster.

I'm not sure what you were expecting Hextall to do in two years at the helm exactly.

Yager is here because of Hextall's awareness to not move a 1st.

If Hextall was still our GM we are probably adding another top 15 overall prospect to the system. That'd be Yager Pickering and another higher end prospect in the span of 3 years.

Maybe not gut their depth and defensive talent and leave the team with numerous bad contracts when he was fired, all while not building up their prospect pool either.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe not gut their depth and defensive talent and leave the team with numerous bad contracts when he was fired, all while not building up their prospect pool either.

He didn't. Depth was fine.

Overblown criticism for people that just want to focus on blaming Hextall for the faults of our coach who can't get anything functioning.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He didn't. Depth was fine.

I swear some of you just argue to argue.

 

[Pancakes]

That mindset isn't based on the idea of contending now. It's based on the idea of being sustainably competitive long-term. They're not trying to "contend", they're trying to be competitive.

The focus at this point of this strategy is for the Penguins to be a fringe playoff team while building up the prospect pool so they can remain competitive for longer and become competitive again faster.

I don't know that it's in their best interest for being competitive long term either to do it the way they're doing it. They'd be better off bottoming out sooner or being more competitive now.

The approach they're taking is probably gonna continue to see them just missing the playoffs while also not really picking any higher than the mid teens.

That means the rug is gonna get swept up from under them when Sid retires and then they're still gonna be no closer to contending again because the best they'll have to show for it will be a Braden Yager or two.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not arguing to argue. Sullivan had depth good enough to make the playoffs in both the last two seasons.

Blueger as his 3C and Poehling as his 4C would've been perfectly fine last season.

We had fine depth this year.

Nobody is forcing Mike Sullivan to solely play Guentzel - Crosby - Rust / use Carter as a 3C / play Ruhwedel 50+ games. etc.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't know that it's in their best interest for being competitive long term either to do it the way they're doing it. They'd be better off bottoming out sooner or being more competitive now.

The approach they're taking is probably gonna continue to see them just missing the playoffs while also not really picking any higher than the mid teens.

That means the rug is gonna get swept up from under them when Sid retires and then they're still gonna be no closer to contending again because the best they'll have to show for it will be a Braden Yager or two.

From a ticket selling perspective, not really. Which is a huge reason why I think the GMs have had the mandates they've had under both Hextall and GM. Both Lemieux and FSG did not/do not want another true bottoming out period because it's bad for the business side of the franchise.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

From a ticket selling perspective, not really. Which is a huge reason why I think the GMs have had the mandates they've had under both Hextall and GM. Both Lemieux and FSG did not/do not want another true bottoming out period because it's bad for the business side of the franchise.

I mean, they’re going to have to bottom out sooner or later. Hard to do this dance of being half in and half out and become great again.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You guys are making my head hurt.

Hextall and Dubas are BOTH comfortably in "little to no confidence" territory. One already failed and the other looks to be trending towards years of failure. The reasons are different but the conclusion is the same. This isn't hard.

Maybe if Kindergarten Kyle can find his sack and show he's a big boy executive and not just a coffee runner we could get somewhere. But he's not allowed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, they’re going to have to bottom out sooner or later. Hard to do this dance of being half in and half out and become great again.

Maybe the owners don't agree with this and want the GMs to figure out a way to prevent that from happening.

Crazy thought: maybe the people who paid hundreds of millions for a franchise don't want it to be a horrid team that no one wants to go see.

 

[Tom Hanks]

 

[Gurglesons]

You guys are making my head hurt.

Hextall and Dubas are BOTH comfortably in "little to no confidence" territory. One already failed and the other looks to be trending towards years of failure. The reasons are different but the conclusion is the same. This isn't hard.

Maybe if Kindergarten Kyle can find his sack and show he's a big boy executive and not just a coffee runner we could get somewhere. But he's not allowed.

No I'm right.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You guys are making my head hurt.

Hextall and Dubas are BOTH comfortably in "little to no confidence" territory. One already failed and the other looks to be trending towards years of failure. The reasons are different but the conclusion is the same. This isn't hard.

Maybe if Kindergarten Kyle can find his sack and show he's a big boy executive and not just a coffee runner we could get somewhere. But he's not allowed.

At least with my intentions, I'm talking about the direction as a whole the GMs of this team are going. It's not even commenting on Dubas versus Hextall and the jobs they've done (outside of me saying Hextall's strategy was fine but badly executed), it's talking about the overall process that the GMs of this team seem to have as a mandate from the people who own the organization.

I think Hextall and Dubas are trying to do the same thing, and neither of them are doing well or did well at it. But I'm just talking about the overall process that this team seems to be getting a mandate from the owners.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe the owners don't agree with this and want the GMs to figure out a way to prevent that from happening.

Crazy thought: maybe the people who paid hundreds of millions for a franchise don't want it to be a horrid team that no one wants to go see.

The way they are running it now is how you end up with a horrid team that no one wants to go see.

Also, I'd argue the Penguins have built enough of a base that they will sell out if they lower tickets prices because most of their fan base has been pushed out. Look at the vibes we got this season when we pushed for the playoffs and everyone thought we were dead.

 

[Pancakes]

From a ticket selling perspective, not really. Which is a huge reason why I think the GMs have had the mandates they've had under both Hextall and GM. Both Lemieux and FSG did not/do not want another true bottoming out period because it's bad for the business side of the franchise.

Oh I get why they're doing it, but the irony here is that once Sid retires and/or declines they're still going to have a nasty bottoming out period.

They think they're being clever by doing this "be competitive while still accumulating assets for the future" mandate but they're still going to have to rebuild at some point because mid/late round firsts are not forestalling the collapse that is coming. Not unless their scouts conjure up some wizardry and get some Getzlaf/Perry type mid/late round steals.

 

[molon labe]

I mean, they’re going to have to bottom out sooner or later. Hard to do this dance of being half in and half out and become great again.

Boston has remained really good.

The Crosby/McD/Bedard route is ultra rare and clearly not necessary. In fact I feel most of the bottom feeders have faired worse than the middling teams. Detroit/Anaheim/Columbus, etc. seem perpetually bad regardless of how often they've drafted top 10.

This team sucks. The division is also much stronger going forward. Don't really have to do much after already hitching the wagon to Sully and Co. We're going to suck and miss the playoffs again, it's just a waiting game at this point.

Biggest travesty is Sid being so bull-headed and missing out on more playoff success/resume. But, in the same breath that's another staple of his greatness. There's definitely something to be said about remaining on one team.

Half/In/Out is sort of a fallacy when looking at the team right now. I mean, Sid doesn't even have 100 points in him anymore and beyond him we have a couple MAYBE 60 point guys. That's not contender status. The depth also sucks and our defense is really not good either. I don't think we even have one toe-"in" less a foot other than the optics of signing/trading for certain guys like Karlsson. But even that was simply a good business decision. He brings back SOME of his salary on jersey sales and keeping the Pens relevant on off nights with historic stat milestones etc.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh I get why they're doing it, but the irony here is that once Sid retires and/or declines they're still going to have a nasty bottoming out period.

They think they're being clever by doing this "be competitive while still accumulating assets for the future" mandate but they're still going to have to rebuild at some point because mid/late round firsts are not forestalling the collapse that is coming. Not unless their scouts conjure up some wizardry and get some Getzlaf/Perry type mid/late round steals.

Feel free to say whether it's unreasonable or not, but I think the idea is for this team to build up a solid foundation of young players now and then use the abundance of cap space they have post-Crosby and Malkin to throw huge money at top players in free agency. It's absolutely more of a baseball strategy than a hockey strategy, but that makes sense when you consider who FSG is.

If I remember right, using UFA to maintain the team as sustainably good was a strategy JR had as well for the future of the Penguins when he was still the GM here. If JR were still the GM, I honestly think he would have let at least one of Letang or Malkin walk in free agency and would have tried to throw a huge deal at someone like Pietrangelo in UFA.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

At least with my intentions, I'm talking about the direction as a whole the GMs of this team are going. It's not even commenting on Dubas versus Hextall and the jobs they've done (outside of me saying Hextall's strategy was fine but badly executed), it's talking about the overall process that the GMs of this team seem to have as a mandate from the people who own the organization.

I think Hextall and Dubas are trying to do the same thing, and neither of them are doing well or did well at it. But I'm just talking about the overall process that this team seems to be getting a mandate from the owners.

Yes I think it's becoming clear that we don't have meddling owners on our hands necessarily however they have a clear idea of what they want and will hire accordingly. Kyle is here because he'll play ball and he likely hopes at some point that the pesky core will just go away and he can play in a fresh sandbox. But in the meantime he answers to Mike Sullivan and the team needs to "be competitive, sell tickets and create buzz but ALSO somehow magically accrue assets and young players for the future." Which is an asinine ask for anything less than an entire staff full of megabrained wizards all armed with crystal balls. But here we are.