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Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

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Empoleon8771 said:
Much more to the point I was getting at, but don't let logic get in the way or anything.
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Wait now. Granlund sucks, but he was part of HBK 2.0. Jack Johnson sucks, but he was light beer Kris Letang!

Make it all make sense Empo!

Big Friggin Dummy said:
Atta boy, double down like Sullivan. :laugh:
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I mean, Jack Johnson at least had athleticism that covered up for his mistakes in the early part of his career.

Ryan Graves has had Cale Makar and Dougie Hamilton that have covered up for his mistakes. Dude is soft as butter, as dumb as Jack Johnson and one of the stupidest players I've ever seen in the offensive zone.

We signed a 32 year old Jack Johnson who was obviously on his way out of being a top four defender. Since we bought him out, he's won a cup and found a role on the Avs in a bottom pairing usage. Ryan Graves is 29 and has been exited for scraps on mulitple cup contending rosters.
 
Gurglesons said:
Wait now. Granlund sucks, but he was part of HBK 2.0. Jack Johnson sucks, but he was light beer Kris Letang!

Make it all make sense Empo!
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You have constantly argued that Marino sucks, but when it comes to Graves, apparently Marino was amazing and just carried Graves to success in New Jersey.
 
Gurglesons said:
Wait now. Granlund sucks, but he was part of HBK 2.0. Jack Johnson sucks, but he was light beer Kris Letang!

Make it all make sense Empo!



I mean, Jack Johnson at least had athleticism that covered up for his mistakes in the early part of his career.

Ryan Graves has had Cale Makar and Dougie Hamilton that have covered up for his mistakes. Dude is soft as butter, as dumb as Jack Johnson and one of the stupidest players I've ever seen in the offensive zone.
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You're full on donkeybrains.
 
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I'm definitely willing to make some allowances for Graves because he's playing for a nincompoop but he STUNK last year, man. You can try to cut it as fine as you want and I sure hope he gets better next year but it was like... glaringly obvious.
 
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Gurglesons said:
We signed a 32 year old Jack Johnson who was obviously on his way out of being a top four defender. Since we bought him out, he's won a cup and found a role on the Avs in a bottom pairing usage. Ryan Graves is 29 and has been exited for scraps on mulitple cup contending rosters.
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The Kings literally won 2 cups in 3 years after trading Jack Johnson in 2012.

BlindWillyMcHurt said:
I'm definitely willing to make some allowances for Graves because he's playing for a nincompoop but he STUNK last year, man. You can try to cut it as fine as you want and I sure hope he gets better next year but it was like... glaringly obvious.
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Yeah I don't think anyone thinks he was good last year. Not even Dubas did, he specifically called out Graves at the end of year conference. I'm willing to give him time with St. Ivany though because I liked the pair when it was together last year.

He simply needs to be better next year, because he's paid far too much to be as useless as he was.
 
BlindWillyMcHurt said:
lol quibbling over exactly HOW bad 4.5M dollar at term third pairing Ryan Graves is.

Ahhhhhh Summer.
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How is it that every season this team's got like $10 million tied up in bad fits or downright dogshit players? :laugh: Carter, Granlund, Graves, JJ, Smith, etc.

Man this team's gotta revamp their pro and amateur scouting depts, just nuke 'em and start fresh.
 
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Big Friggin Dummy said:
You're full on donkeybrains.
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Not really. Jack Johnson was way more useful at 29 than Ryan Graves is.

Empoleon8771 said:
The Kings literally won 2 cups in 3 years after trading Jack Johnson in 2012.
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Jack Johnson was a centerpiece of a trade for Jeff Carter who was a top six center.

Ryan Graves was traded for a 2nd.

Jack Johnson at 29 was a top pairing defenseman on a playoff team.

Ryan Graves at 29 essentially would've lost his job if we had a coach worth a damb.
 
Big Friggin Dummy said:
How is it that every season this team's got like $10 million tied up in bad fits or downright dogshit players? :laugh: Carter, Granlund, Graves, JJ, Smith, etc.

Man this team's gotta revamp their pro and amateur scouting depts, just nuke 'em and start fresh.
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It almost makes you wonder WTF the scouting department watches when they are supposed to scout.
 
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Gurglesons said:
Not really. Jack Johnson was way more useful at 29 than Ryan Graves is.



Jack Johnson was a centerpiece of a trade for Jeff Carter who was a top six center.

Ryan Graves was traded for a 2nd.
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Gurglesons said:
Not really. Jack Johnson was way more useful at 29 than Ryan Graves is.



Jack Johnson was a centerpiece of a trade for Jeff Carter who was a top six center.

Ryan Graves was traded for a 2nd.
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Johnson was a -90 in his career while playing with the Kings and the Kings immediately became a top tier cup contender after getting rid of him. They had not won a single round in his 5 years playing top-4 minutes for them, while he was hemorrhaging goals against left and right from not knowing how to play defense. As soon as he was moved, the Kings won 10 playoff rounds in the next 3 years.

I don't even care about Graves in this discussion, your takes on Jack Johnson are just bonkers right now.
 
Big Friggin Dummy said:
How is it that every season this team's got like $10 million tied up in bad fits or downright dogshit players? :laugh: Carter, Granlund, Graves, JJ, Smith, etc.

Man this team's gotta revamp their pro and amateur scouting depts, just nuke 'em and start fresh.
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Yeah I've been bitching about this for years. Though I mean... long list.

A certain GREATEST COACH EVAR kinda complicates things, though. Like... we've seen some extremely up and down results with players over the years. Don't think that's a coincidence.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Johnson was a -90 in his career while playing with the Kings and the Kings immediately became a top tier cup contender after getting rid of him. They had not won a single round in his 5 years playing top-4 minutes for them, while he was hemorrhaging goals against left and right from not knowing how to play defense. As soon as he was moved, the Kings won 10 playoff rounds in the next 3 years.

I don't even care about Graves in this discussion, your takes on Jack Johnson are just bonkers right now.
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Says the guy who defended the Jack Johnson signing for 4 months in 2018 lol.
 
The whole thing that confuses me regarding the "Graves is Jack Johnson 2.0" is that he even finished with a +10 rating for the Penguins last year. I don't like +/- as a stat and think that Graves was absolutely bad last year, but I fail to see how someone with a +10 can be "Jack Johnson 2.0". Like JJ's worst seasons in the NHL were him being like -25 over a season. Hell, he was a -25 in 58 games for the Hawks in 202-2023.

+/- isn't a good stat and whatnot, but Graves is a +94 over his career while Johnson is a -114. Those stats in isolation don't say much, but the mountainous difference there almost has to suggest something, no? That's not "+10 on a good team vs -10 on a bad team", that's a mountainous difference between the two.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Let's flip it around. If you are any team wanting to trade for Kotkaniemi, why would you agree to trade for him if you're not giving up another terrible long-term deal for him?

The likely outcome here is that the Canes will just buy out Kotkaniemi, because they won't take a bad deal back due to his buyout being tame while other teams won't be willing to trade for Kotkaniemi without sending out their own bad deal.

Would they do Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi? Probably not unless they absolutely love Ponomarev. But if you are the Penguins, why would you trade for Kotkaniemi without giving up Graves? You can just wait for him to be bought out and then sign him in UFA for like $3 million a year.
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Why would the Canes take a bad contract back? There are a couple teams with quite a bit of cap space iirc. They aren't all going to be able to get the top ufas. KK's contract would help them get to the floor. All it would cost is a pick, not a long-term contract.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
The whole thing that confuses me regarding the "Graves is Jack Johnson 2.0" is that he even finished with a +10 rating for the Penguins last year. I don't like +/- as a stat and think that Graves was absolutely bad last year, but I fail to see how someone with a +10 can be "Jack Johnson 2.0". Like JJ's worst seasons in the NHL were him being like -25 over a season. Hell, he was a -25 in 58 games for the Hawks in 202-2023.

+/- isn't a good stat and whatnot, but Graves is a +94 over his career while Johnson is a -114. Those stats in isolation don't say much, but the mountainous difference there almost has to suggest something, no? That's not "+10 on a good team vs -10 on a bad team", that's a mountainous difference between the two.
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I think the mountainous difference is Jack Johnson was largely used as an offensive defenseman and had a purpose in that role in some type of weird conceptual understanding.

Ryan Graves is used as a defensive defenseman, but he sucks at it. He is terrible offensively. His omly solid ability is his PKing and the fact goals seem to go in for some reason by him. People think he is good defensively because he is big and tall, but as we saw this year he is absolutely terrible in his own zone and off the rush.

Big Friggin Dummy said:
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