Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Empoleon8771]

Why did we waste cap on Mikheyev when he isn’t on the NHL roster?

Yeah that was a change I made that I forgot to edit out, I initially had the 4th line as Mikheyev-Poulin-Acciari then I went back to Poulin-Eller-Acciari.

Mikheyev-Poulin-Acciari actually looks really good to me but I'm doubtful you could get Mikheyev to sign for a 4th line role here.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's okay for us to trade a player just because they don't fit here or we don't like how they play. Who gives a shit if Graves is or isn't the worst player in the league? He's clearly not working here and he's not worth trying to make work, IMO.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's okay for us to trade a player just because they don't fit here or we don't like how they play. Who gives a shit if Graves is or isn't the worst player in the league? He's clearly not working here and he's not worth trying to make work, IMO.

Not to mention the term. I'm always in favor of moving out "fringe", middle tier players who are signed for way too long.

That's one thing I agreed with Shero about (though even he kind of started to go against that philosophy). Only core/star players should be signed for 3+ years. The depth guys shouldn't be getting more than 1 or 2 year deals. 3 max if they're very good middle tier players (ie. a Matt Cooke-type).

 

[McGroarty2]

Let's say the Penguins would enter next year with this lineup:

Robertson-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-Kotkaniemi-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari
Puljujarvi-Lizotte

Pettersson-Karlsson
Skjei-Letang
Graves-St. Ivany
Ludvig

Jarry-Blomqvist

Do you think this team would be playoff caliber? This is assuming they trade for Kotkaniemi and Robertson and sign Lizotte (after not being qualified by the Kings) and Skjei in free agency.

If they did make it, wouldn't get out of the 1st round. Pens would be overmatched physically.

 

[eXile3]

Graves was far worse with the Penguins last year than he was with either the Avs or Devils in the past.

I definitely remember watching him in the playoffs with the Devils and hoping we weren’t the team dumb enough to sign him.

He’s big. He’s a good skater. He has zero hockey IQ and makes stupid decisions consistently.

I don’t remember much of him before that but that’s absolutely the same player.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

View attachment 874917

Penguins immediately went on a run when he was injured after looking like shit.

This is Jack Johnson 2.0.

Jack Johnson went on to be a regular for the Aves when they won the Cup.

How many Dman and goalies have to come and be garbage and/or leave and succeed for people to realize it's not the players, it's the "system".

 

[HandshakeLine]

Good thing the organization doesn’t want to change the system.

 

[McGroarty2]

Rakell Crosby Rust
Bunting Stephenson Malkin
O'Connor Eller Puustinen
Duhaime Acciari Puljujarvi
Poulin Gruden

 

[SEALBound]

It's okay for us to trade a player just because they don't fit here or we don't like how they play. Who gives a shit if Graves is or isn't the worst player in the league? He's clearly not working here and he's not worth trying to make work, IMO.

I think they thought Graves was going to be a combination of several things they needed in a pairing with Letang. "Oh, he's big and tall who won't get pushed around. We need that. Oh, he and Marino were a good defensive pairing. We need that. Oh, he can produce a bit. We need that. (and most importantly) Oh, he's available and he's willing to sign here for a contract that we can take on. We need that."

But in doing do, they put him in a position that didn't play to his stretches...at all. So you're exactly right, there comes a point where whether or he's "good" becomes a bit irrelevant. The more important question might be, does he FIT here?

There's something unsettling with the thought that they might be thinking "Oh, he wasn't great...but he'll eventually settle in and fit". That said, players have ups and downs. We've seen it with several players. Hell, every other year (for years) there were major discussions in the off-season about trading Letang because of how bad he was. But he rebounds. I don't think Graves is a bad player. I think he is who he is and that likely we are paying fair market value for what that is. I think he's tradable if someone needs him. Like Jarry, we just have to determine if the player we get back in the trade is a more pressing need. Like Jarry, I'm not in the "get rid of him by any means necessary". I don't think he's at that level of bad.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I think Graves is in change of scenery and not cap dump material.

Guy just doesn't fit the system. Plays well the past couple years and comes here looking lost? Nah that isn't him forgetting how to play in prime defensemen years.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think they thought Graves was going to be a combination of several things they needed in a pairing with Letang. "Oh, he's big and tall who won't get pushed around. We need that. Oh, he and Marino were a good defensive pairing. We need that. Oh, he can produce a bit. We need that. (and most importantly) Oh, he's available and he's willing to sign here for a contract that we can take on. We need that."

But in doing do, they put him in a position that didn't play to his stretches...at all. So you're exactly right, there comes a point where whether or he's "good" becomes a bit irrelevant. The more important question might be, does he FIT here?

There's something unsettling with the thought that they might be thinking "Oh, he wasn't great...but he'll eventually settle in and fit". That said, players have ups and downs. We've seen it with several players. Hell, every other year (for years) there were major discussions in the off-season about trading Letang because of how bad he was. But he rebounds. I don't think Graves is a bad player. I think he is who he is and that likely we are paying fair market value for what that is. I think he's tradable if someone needs him. Like Jarry, we just have to determine if the player we get back in the trade is a more pressing need. Like Jarry, I'm not in the "get rid of him by any means necessary". I don't think he's at that level of bad.

But again, it's like they never really watched Graves because the organization's idea of what he would bring doesn't really seem to jive with what he actually brings or brought elsewhere, especially when you look at him on the ice. I don't get it. We have this supposedly top-notch stats and video department and yet we constantly do these things. Accairi is another one-- the guy has no success at center, never played center much anywhere and what do we do? Sign him to be our 4C.

It's at this point where it's either malicious, a complete dismissal of the video/stats departments, or hockey stats/moneyball hockey really are that bad. I don't know what to believe but it sure is something.

But Dubas has to just accept that if he's scared of replacing the coaching staff, then he must acquire players based on what they are, not what he thinks they can be here.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Graves is a rover with lower IQ that does best with a guy like Marino. I don't know what's worse, the team thinking he'd fit well with EK/Letang or that they could teach him to play with them.

 

[Gurglesons]

But again, it's like they never really watched Graves because the organization's idea of what he would bring doesn't really seem to jive with what he actually brings or brought elsewhere, especially when you look at him on the ice. I don't get it. We have this supposedly top-notch stats and video department and yet we constantly do these things. Accairi is another one-- the guy has no success at center, never played center much anywhere and what do we do? Sign him to be our 4C.

It's at this point where it's either malicious, a complete dismissal of the video/stats departments, or hockey stats/moneyball hockey really are that bad. I don't know what to believe but it sure is something.

But Dubas has to just accept that if he's scared of replacing the coaching staff, then he must acquire players based on what they are, not what he thinks they can be here.

To be fair, Graves was the partner for Makar and Dougie Hamilton prior to last year.

I guess the issue is anyone that actually watched those minutes knew it wasn't Graves doing any of the work.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Is it bad I want Kakko

 

[Malkinstheman]

Is it bad I want Kakko

People here have been talking about acquiring Nuke. I think youre good lol. I just think this might be one of the worst places for a young player to come for a scenery change. Players usually come here and need a scenery change after a year lol. I have absolutely no faith in this coaching staff to develop a skilled forward.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is it bad I want Kakko

No. I would've gladly taken him and a 1st plus someone like Jones for Guentzel.

 

[SEALBound]

But again, it's like they never really watched Graves because the organization's idea of what he would bring doesn't really seem to jive with what he actually brings or brought elsewhere, especially when you look at him on the ice. I don't get it. We have this supposedly top-notch stats and video department and yet we constantly do these things. Accairi is another one-- the guy has no success at center, never played center much anywhere and what do we do? Sign him to be our 4C.

It's at this point where it's either malicious, a complete dismissal of the video/stats departments, or hockey stats/moneyball hockey really are that bad. I don't know what to believe but it sure is something.

But Dubas has to just accept that if he's scared of replacing the coaching staff, then he must acquire players based on what they are, not what he thinks they can be here.

There's a couple more aspects to it though, I think (not that I disagree with anything you are saying) that:

1. Capacity to fit with a certain partner
2. Capacity to fit within a certain system
3. Availability and willingness to sign a neutral value contract

These are things that you discuss during the "risk management" portion of the free agency search. As Gurgs pointed out, they probably looked at him and said "he worked well enough with Makar and Hamilton, do we think he would work well with Letang?". The moneypuck stats only take you so far in the FA search. And realistically, there are only so many top 4 dmen available in free agency.

This is a "I can understand why they signed him." All things considered, it's just that it hasn't worked out as well as they'd hoped, but that's a risk with any free agent. Now, before you say "BUT...!!!", let me be clear that I'm sure they understood, to a point, that there was a certain level of risk involved with the signing. If we want to fault them, I will default to saying, "They were willing to accept too much risk with this deal." as opposed to "they just didn't look into him".

Is it bad I want Kakko

No. I'd take him here. Not paying much for him, but I'd take him here.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

To be fair, Graves was the partner for Makar and Dougie Hamilton prior to last year.

I guess the issue is anyone that actually watched those minutes knew it wasn't Graves doing any of the work.

'xactly. The notion of him being "good" before the Pens and being bad 'cause of our system or w/e was just completely misguided.

 

[HandshakeLine]

To be fair, Graves was the partner for Makar and Dougie Hamilton prior to last year.

I guess the issue is anyone that actually watched those minutes knew it wasn't Graves doing any of the work.

Yeah, right? It's like trading for Robbie Brown, I guess.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Dejan wrote today that there are internal conversations about moving Malkin to wing. We'll see if it finally materializes, but something to watch.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Is it bad I want Kakko

Na.
Nuke PLD and KK have been discussed on bringing them here as a way to take a high gamble.

I do worry about Kakko in the sense that he's being scratched and idk if Sullivan will develop him. I'd take him on for not a lot and take a gamble.

 

[Tom Hanks]

We’ve had some history with newly acquired D men taking until the 2nd year here to become decent (not that I know much about Graves)

 

[Empoleon8771]

I definitely remember watching him in the playoffs with the Devils and hoping we weren’t the team dumb enough to sign him.

He’s big. He’s a good skater. He has zero hockey IQ and makes stupid decisions consistently.

I don’t remember much of him before that but that’s absolutely the same player.

Yeah I think this description of him is right, he was just far worse last year than he was I. Previous years. He’s the same player but he absolutely should be better.

He needs a smooth skating, puck moving RD to play with like Marino. I like St. Ivany in that role to start so I’m optimistic about that 3rd pair.

Dejan wrote today that there are internal conversations about moving Malkin to wing. We'll see if it finally materializes, but something to watch.

That would be incredibly dumb. Malkin at center isn’t an issue whatsoever.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I wish they would have discussions about how to run a functional power play and how to not lose every OT ever in the regular season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The idea that Graves has always been bad and he was carried by his partners is just as wrong as the idea that he was an ultra physical DFD. There is absolutely nothing statistically that supports this idea.

Looking at his Colorado years (2018-2021):

-Graves with Makar: 649:30 TOI, 39-21 goal differential, +5.19 GF%Rel
-Graves without Makar: 1484:51 TOI, 75-52 goal differential, +0.78 GF%Rel

Looking at his New Jersey years, he actually had far worse results with Hamilton than without Hamilton:

-Graves with Hamilton: 533:04 TOI, 26-32 goal differential, -9.18 GF%Rel
-Graves without Hamilton: 2110:11 TOI, 106-93 goal differential, +2.56 GF%Rel

Graves' results were absolutely inflated by playing with Makar in Colorado, but this idea that he was always bad and carried by his partners is absolutely baseless statistically. In fact, pointing at Hamilton when the Graves-Hamilton pair was bad is just further proof that it's a completely made up claim.

Before coming to Pittsburgh, Graves was a #4 defenseman being used like a #4 defenseman. He was awful for the Penguins last year, but that doesn't magically re-write what he was before last year. And no, claiming "I actually watched him" doesn't invalidate the stats that say your claim is wrong.