Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Gurglesons]

If the Canes are considering buying out KK then they should shop him with retention down to 4mil. Aka, 820k retention.

The retention money is the same but it is far shorter, 6 years versus 12 years. Then again, to any GM it probably doesn't matter since they figure they won't be the GM that long anyways.

I definitely think teams will be interested, even with no retention, if they don't have to give up any assets.

The issue with retaining is then it ties them down if a team buys him out. Can’t see them doing it for that reason.

 

[Gurglesons]

Looking at past cap dump trades, I actually think the Penguins could probably pull off a 2nd to take on Kotkaniemi's deal. I know he's owed $30 million technically, but his buyout is $10 million that the Canes would be electing to do if they don't trade him. Taking on $10 million in dead money has tended to cost teams around a 1st or 2 2nds, but I think Kotkaniemi's age plus still being a useful player should lower that price.

It's a hard comparison to make because I do not recall a single example of a guy in Kotkaniemi's shoes getting moved. All of the negative value cap dumps we've seen in the past have been older guys, so I'm not sure that the negative value price for a mid-30s buyout candidate is the same as Kotkaniemi.

Also considering the Canes have numerous times taken advantage of taking on bad deals (Bickell, Pacioretty and Marleau are 3 examples that jump to mind), I'm not exactly keen on giving them a discount when they're looking to get out of a bad deal this time.

lol. Glad you've joined me.

 

[eXile3]

I think Graves could rebound but the team needs a RD they simply don't have, and can't really get. Letang and Karlsson just aren't those guys to help settle down things and let Graves focus more on the transition side of things.

I wanted Graves, but it was not a good signing. Swing and a miss. /shrug

Rebound to what? This is the same player he was with NJ.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Rebound to what? This is the same player he was with NJ.

The Pittsburgh Penguins pro scouting department hits yet another one out of the park.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

The Pittsburgh Penguins pro scouting department hits yet another one out of the park.

"He's big."

"Sign him."

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rebound to what? This is the same player he was with NJ.

Graves was far worse with the Penguins last year than he was with either the Avs or Devils in the past.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I don't know what makes a top six winger, anymore

But i can assure you, we don't have ANY

Because when we play other teams or I watch other teams, a bunch of no-names are out here doing better than our two best players in history are doing....

... So don't know why we can't figure out how to get our wingers to make some f***ing plays. It has got to be an Xs and Os thing, because we play worse than the exArizona team.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Graves was never phenomenal, but he was *bad* last year. Problem is, this team doesn't seem to have a RD partner to help him rebound, so I kinda expect more of the same.

 

[Gurglesons]

Rebound to what? This is the same player he was with NJ.

Yeah, I was very perplexed by people celebrating his contract. Dude sucked.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Mike Sullivan (and his coaching staff) is a master at making defenseman look bad. There's been alot of defenseman that have come and gone that have struggled in Sullivan's system (whatever that is ). Yes, Graves may still be a bad contract but that joker Sullivan has to be a big part of the blame. IMHO, we would have made the playoffs the last two year (but not make much noise) if we had a head coach that implemented a defense system more aligned with the players we have now than thinking our core is ageless and doesn't need a change. I can't stand Sullivan anymore.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Graves was a 4/5 on someone else's team. What matters is if he's a 4/5 here and he's not and I don't have much hope of him becoming a second pairing guy.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Yeah, I was very perplexed by people celebrating his contract. Dude sucked.

I was excited and I was bamboozled.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's awesome that this dysfunctional franchise has just been getting steadily worse for the past like 7 years and instead of holding the obviously problematic coach accountable they've just cruised on through and come out the other side of the tunnel, now having settled in "Oh well, nothing can be helped if *the* Mike Sullivan can't fix things."

I wish my boss was a billionaire. Dumbest f***ing people on the planet.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Rebound to what? This is the same player he was with NJ.

Ryan Graves in NJ 8 goals, 18 assists, 26 points, +34
Ryan Graves in PIT 3 goals, 11 assists, 14 points, +10
Not the same player.

With that said, how 'bad' Graves was last season is vastly overstated.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Ryan Graves in NJ 8 goals, 18 assists, 26 points, +34
Ryan Graves in PIT 3 goals, 11 assists, 14 points, +10
Not the same player.

With that said, how 'bad' Graves was last season is vastly overstated.

Im not judging Graves primarily on points either. He has to defend and move the puck in transition. Points are a bonus.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ryan Graves in NJ 8 goals, 18 assists, 26 points, +34
Ryan Graves in PIT 3 goals, 11 assists, 14 points, +10
Not the same player.

With that said, how 'bad' Graves was last season is vastly overstated.

Penguins immediately went on a run when he was injured after looking like shit.

This is Jack Johnson 2.0.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've already made the point regarding Graves, but I'm not super concerned with going into next year with him as their 3rd pair LD with St. Ivany. $5.2 million for a 3rd pair really isn't that much and I like how the two complement each other. They need Graves to be better than he was last year without a doubt, but I'm not ready to write him off yet because of 1 bad year.

XXXXX-Crosby-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Rust
O'Connor-XXXXX-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari
Puljujarvi-XXXXX

Pettersson-Karlsson
XXXXX-Letang
Graves-St. Ivany
Ludvig

Jarry-Blomqvist

This lineup has $15.7 million in cap space minus whatever salary retention is needed (if any) on Smith. I feel like this team can make some legitimate additions with the cap space they have available. You'd have the cap space to maybe do something like:

-Smith to Carolina for Kotkaniemi and a 3rd
-One of the Penguins 2nds to Toronto for Robertson, re-sign him for 3 years at $2.5 million a year
-Sign Skjei in free agency for 6 years at $7 million

Not that I'd want to give Shea that kind of money, but you realistically have about $15 million to split up between 1LW, 3C and 2LD in free agency.

View attachment 874917

Penguins immediately went on a run when he was injured after looking like shit.

This is Jack Johnson 2.0.

The Penguins immediately went on a run after trading Guentzel after looking like shit.

Guentzel is Mikael Granlund 2.0.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins immediately went on a run after trading Guentzel after looking like shit.

Guentzel is Mikael Granlund 2.0.

The Penguins traded Guentzel on March 8th and proceeded to lose 7 of 9.

 

[SEALBound]

I think as the cap keeps going up, the going rate for a fringe #4/5 D is going to basically match what Graves is already making.

Graves is currently the 69th (nice) highest paid defenseman in the NHL and most of the defensemen paid similarly are more 19-20 minute a night type of guys. I don't think there needs to be a huge market shift for that price being for 17-18 minute a night type of guys in UFA rather than 19-20 minute a night guys.

I pointed out in the Mikheyev for Graves thread on the main boards that Graves isn't really a "cap dump" level player, even after his down year because you can't go to free agency and sign a similar defensemen for less money or term. You might get one or the other if there's additional, non-hockey incentives for the player to sign but at the end of the day, I do think Graves (with his current level of play and historical level of play) is being paid market value. On a nightly basis that may fluctuate up and down a bit but it's still fair.

Him going out for a comparably struggling forward isn't the worst idea if we can also attach Eller or, much more preferably, Acciari to the deal. Say Graves+Acciari for Mikheyev+3rd or a prospect / Graves+Acciari for KK+3rd would be about right. That said, I don't support bringing in either of those players because they are expensive and don't move the needle for us at all.

"He's big."

"Sign him."

Pretty much the reason we brought back Zohorna...

Ryan Graves in NJ 8 goals, 18 assists, 26 points, +34
Ryan Graves in PIT 3 goals, 11 assists, 14 points, +10
Not the same player.

With that said, how 'bad' Graves was last season is vastly overstated.

I mean, he was bad - there's no doubt about that. He even got called out by Dubas.

I do think there is a difference between "Graves was playing over his head in NJ and came back to earth in Pit" and "Graves had a underforming year in Pit". He went from a relatively responsible partner in Marino to the likes of Letang and EK. That's going to mess with anyone.

If you pair him with JSI or Shea or a similar player and run him on the 3rd pairing assuming you find a replacement top 4 LD to go with Letang, I think he would be fine.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Penguins traded Guentzel on March 8th and proceeded to lose 7 of 9.

The Penguins were 28-25-8 before the Guentzel trade and were 10-7-4 after the Guentzel trade. They were on an 86 point pace before trading Guentzel and a 94 point pace after trading Guentzel.

Therefore, Guentzel was actively hurting their team, which makes him Mikael Granlund 2.0.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins were 28-25-8 before the Guentzel trade and were 10-7-4 after the Guentzel trade. They were on an 86 point pace before trading Guentzel and a 94 point pace after trading Guentzel.

Therefore, Guentzel was actively hurting their team, which makes him Mikael Granlund 2.0.

Dying on the hill of defending Ryan Graves is a very @Empoleon8771 take lol.

Also, I thought Mikael Granlund was HBK 2.0.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Graves sucked, but to call him Jack Johnson--a dude who was easily in the running for worst player in the entire league--is pretty silly.

 

[Gurglesons]

I do think there is a difference between "Graves was playing over his head in NJ and came back to earth in Pit" and "Graves had a underforming year in Pit". He went from a relatively responsible partner in Marino to the likes of Letang and EK. That's going to mess with anyone.

If you pair him with JSI or Shea or a similar player and run him on the 3rd pairing assuming you find a replacement top 4 LD to go with Letang, I think he would be fine.

I'm fine with Graves on the third pairing, but he was a terrible signing and was an albatross the day he was signed as I said the day he was signed. I even called that people would be hating him by December.

I think Graves sucked, but to call him Jack Johnson--a dude who was easily in the running for worst player in the entire league--is pretty silly.

You're right. Jack Johnson is better!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dying on the hill of defending Ryan Graves is a very @Empoleon8771 take lol.

Also, I thought Mikael Granlund was HBK 2.0.

Today I learned saying "calling Graves Jack Johnson 2.0 because the Penguins went on a hot run with Graves injured is stupid" means "defending Ryan Graves".

I think Graves sucked, but to call him Jack Johnson--a dude who was easily in the running for worst player in the entire league--is pretty silly.

Much more to the point I was getting at, but don't let logic get in the way or anything.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm fine with Graves on the third pairing, but he was a terrible signing and was an albatross the day he was signed as I said the day he was signed. I even called that people would be hating him by December.



You're right. Jack Johnson is better!

Atta boy, double down like Sullivan.