Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Big Friggin Dummy]

i would disagree there, DoC was noticeable on darn near every shift. It was a lot more then just what showed up on the score sheet, we need more people like him on the team imo.
meaning, young, fast, has some skills, but most importantly DOC would skate through a wall for this team. Also keep in mind he's getting 900K and he was NOT out of place on the top line, and in fact was a positive contributor when it mattered. Give me more of that.

I should've clarified; anything in terms of a scoring line player. I think he's acquitted himself as a solid 3rd liner, even in the eyes of someone like me who doesn't really care one way or another about DOC.

I wish this coach didn't run his lines as Sid's line being the 1st line, Geno's line being a 3rd line, and then two defense-only 4th lines in the bottom-6. But this team can't even really flesh out a functional top-6, so I dunno. Probably asking too much of 'em.

 

[Ulf5]

I've been on this dudes shadow since the early days of "Why is he here?"

People actually went to bat for him "calling him a good #6...."

WTF!!!!!

You think it's easy finding a professional athlete that will pickup your dry cleaning, get your shoes shined, keep you company while you get a pedicure, etc.? Well do ya?

 

[JRS91]

Like, Rust and Bunting are fine third wheel guys, but neither is moving the needle for a team in this spot. Rakell's a whatever 3rd liner who had an anomalous 60pt season. Smith's a whatever 3rd liner who seems to have a shit attitude. I'm still not convinced DOC is anything, and he's pretty markedly above guys like Puustinen and Puljujarvi.

Just a whole lotta mediocre bleh around two aging centers. And I kind of expect Sid to take a notable step back next season. I think he's a top-5 player all time, but at some point, time's gotta catch up. /shrug

That doesn't even touch on the Sullivan issue, which has wide-reaching effects and just kinda makes discussing potential moves more or less a moot point. Even if this team happened to get JT Miller back in the Hextall era, does anyone think Sullivan's coaching wouldn't misuse the guy as some lockdown 3C or take away any sorta snarl he has on the ice?

Petts and Rust are fine, but Petts wasn't anything special last season and going back the past handful of years is bad just as often as he's good. Rust is 32, largely a product of Sullivan's usage of him, and prone to injury. You think either of these guys are make-or-break pieces? Agree to disagree I guess. /shrug

Rakell is not a third liner.

He's been in the league for 10 seasons and has 5 20+ goal seasons. He's a little inconsistent, but he's a solid complimentary winger top-six winger. He just shouldn't be counted on to be the guy, much like Bunting and Rust.

I agree with your other sentiment. Guentzel was really their only winger I'd say that was capable of driving a line. Rust, Bunting and Rakell are top-six players, but they're complimentary wingers. They help fill out a line. Not a single one of those guys are going to be the driving force of the top-six and Crosby and Malkin are getting too old to be carrying a line like they have for the past two decades.

 

[chethejet]

Pens have complementary players for the centers that drive the play. Nothing wrong with that. But as star players decline, the game and needs change. I do like the top 6 or 9 for the Pens. Rakell was hurt but came on later. Bunting added much needed scoring, net presence and jam on the second line. DOC did that as well. Smith didn't and he has to be traded. Dubas has enough to make a nice roster and make a playoff appearance this year. Now some things have to happen as to Graves Jarry and Acciari coming back and playing better. Add Stephenson and get Puustinen stronger and I like adding size, more grit and youth to the mix. Poulin, Ponomarev, 4th line options as well.. Sullivan has to change his ways as well.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I should've clarified; anything in terms of a scoring line player. I think he's acquitted himself as a solid 3rd liner, even in the eyes of someone like me who doesn't really care one way or another about DOC.

I wish this coach didn't run his lines as Sid's line being the 1st line, Geno's line being a 3rd line, and then two defense-only 4th lines in the bottom-6. But this team can't even really flesh out a functional top-6, so I dunno. Probably asking too much of 'em.

Geno always got 3rd line wingers, but he was good enough to make it work. Now he's too old to do so, and Sully hasn't figured it out.

To be fair, lots of teams build 1 dominant line and ride off of that, so there is that as well.

 

[SEALBound]

Geno always got 3rd line wingers, but he was good enough to make it work. Now he's too old to do so, and Sully hasn't figured it out.

To be fair, lots of teams build 1 dominant line and ride off of that, so there is that as well.

Did he though? Granted, in 2010, he got Cooke and Talbot, but in 2012-2014, he had Neal, Kunitz for one of the years, and Jokinen for the other. 2015 was a bit of a mash up when it was Duper, Horny, Perron, Comeau, Downie, and some randos. In 2016 he got Kunitz and Rust but also had Hags, Horny, Perron, Duper, etc for various times of the year. 2017 he got Kessel. Recently, he's had either Rakell or Rust on the RW, with Zucker and Smith on the LW. I mean, what more can we realistically expect?

Fact is, Geno has been given pretty decent linemates over the years. Sure we can look back and find stretches where he had garbage but so did Sid. Remember Gibbons? I don't think the "Sid was always given the best wingers and Geno got leftovers" shtick was ever really all that true.

We also have to reconsider and adjust expectations as to what top 6 wings realistically are. Jake, Smith, Bunting, Rakell, Rust, Zucker...all top 6 wings. Period. They may not be the premier Top 6 wings in the league but they are on par with the vast majority of teams in terms of quality. There's always this "the grass is greener" aspect to evaluating roster players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This idea that "Malkin has always had to play with bad wingers" is like 10 years outdated. The last year it was even kinda true was 2015, where I recall Malkin playing a lot with guys like Downie and Comeau.

Who was even the last "3rd line" winger playing with Malkin? Kapanen is probably the closest, but Kapanen was great in his one year playing mostly with Malkin. You probably have to go all the way back to late stage Kunitz in like 2016, but Malkin had Kessel as the other winger for the most part.

In the last 5 years, Malkin has pretty much exclusively played with 2nd line wingers. Kapanen is probably the closest to a "3rd liner" that he played with over that window, but guys like Zucker, Rust, Bunting, Rakell and Smith were absolutely not 3rd liners (or were not intended to be 3rd liners). While that group isn't anything to write home about, the consistent struggles that the 2nd line has had over those 5 years (outside of this year, where it was really good IMO) is more on Malkin than his wingers.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Geno has had Neal, Kessel, Hornqvist and Jokinen and such. Multiple times the best winger on the team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Geno has had Neal, Kessel, Hornqvist and Jokinen and such. Multiple times the best winger on the team.

I honestly think the "Malkin has always had to play with scraps" claims have mostly been focused on making excuses for Malkin's play in past years.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

We're getting caught up in the details. My "3rd liner comment" may have been an overstatement, and by no means am I making excuses for his performance (or lack of).

That being said...
Malkin usually got wingers that didn't work with Crosby, and not necessarily what's best for the team.

The problem is Malkin was good enough to overcome this (and technically so was/is Crosby if the shoe were on the other foot).

But no longer is Malkin capable of doing so anymore.

So Sully needs to decide what he wants.
OR
Dubas needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat and actually better wingers, while addressing all the other problems, and stay under the cap, and not give up too many futures.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I honestly think the "Malkin has always had to play with scraps" claims have mostly been focused on making excuses for Malkin's play in past years.

He's gotten exceptionally older, do people think he can still prop up players to the levels he was 7/8 years ago?

I find it's father-time catching up to him, being the bigger, multiple knee surgeries guy he is. It won't be him propping up good wings rather than the good wings padding his stat-line.

There's only so much he can do.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Well a Canes fan is down for Smith or Eller for KK.

Personally at the deadline there value is anywhere between a 2nd A 5th each. I'd rather Gamble with KK.

 

[Pancakes]

Well a Canes fan is down for Smith or Eller for KK.

Personally at the deadline there value is anywhere between a 2nd A 5th each. I'd rather Gamble with KK.

I'd be down for that. I don't think KK is anything special but he is young and $5mil for what he brings is perfectly fine.

The Penguins should be gambling on young players like that. They 1000% need to get younger, faster.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well a Canes fan is down for Smith or Eller for KK.

Personally at the deadline there value is anywhere between a 2nd A 5th each. I'd rather Gamble with KK.

Like I said on the main board, I wouldn't trade for Kotkaniemi without Graves going the other way.

I'd rather do Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi. Ponomarev is a better asset than the Canes would ever get for Kotkaniemi, but they also have to take on Graves' deal.

 

[Pancakes]

Like I said on the main board, I wouldn't trade for Kotkaniemi without Graves going the other way.

I'd rather do Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi. Ponomarev is a better asset than the Canes would ever get for Kotkaniemi, but they also have to take on Graves' deal.

I don't think I'd do that deal were I the Canes. KK at least provides value. Graves is an active drain. Maybe Carolina could fix him. They do great with defensemen. But that's not a gamble I'd want to make were I them.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I'd be down for that. I don't think KK is anything special but he is young and $5mil for what he brings is perfectly fine.

The Penguins should be gambling on young players like that. They 1000% need to get younger, faster.

It's a gamble but it's a good gamble.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think I'd do that deal were I the Canes. KK at least provides value. Graves is an active drain. Maybe Carolina could fix him. They do great with defensemen. But that's not a gamble I'd want to make were I them.

This both overrates Kotkaniemi and underrates Graves.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Reilly Smith because he's a much better player than Kotkaniemi, if we're talking upside.

And then if he sucks, you can just trade him or let him walk for nothing next year. If Kotkaniemi continues to suck, you're stuck with him.

It's a poorly thought out idea.

Like I said on the main board, I wouldn't trade for Kotkaniemi without Graves going the other way.

I'd rather do Graves and Ponomarev for Kotkaniemi. Ponomarev is a better asset than the Canes would ever get for Kotkaniemi, but they also have to take on Graves' deal.

I don't think I'd do that deal were I the Canes. KK at least provides value. Graves is an active drain. Maybe Carolina could fix him. They do great with defensemen. But that's not a gamble I'd want to make were I them.

Yea I'd prefer it it was Graves but I couldn't see myself making the trade for Graves if I had KK with the 1/3 buyout. It would be preferred and I think it's close but we would have to add an asset. Ponomarev damn.

 

[vodeni]

Geno has had Neal, Kessel, Hornqvist and Jokinen and such. Multiple times the best winger on the team.

and thats when we were winning or were really good...

 

[Pancakes]

This both overrates Kotkaniemi and underrates Graves.

It's hard to directly compare them because KK was deployed more offensively than Graves was but KK definitely out performed him this past year and is quite a bit younger.

Graves' past results aren't exactly anything to write home about either. He wasn't particularly great with the Devils. He was fine, but nothing special. So it's not like there's exactly a level that you're looking for from him where he even lives up to that contract imo. If he provided for us what he provided for the Devils I think it's still not a great contract.

So I dunno. If I'm Carolina I pass on that I think unless the Pens are eating part of Graves' contract.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Graves obviously had a bad season for the Penguins last year, but I think people need to look at his overall track record rather than just assuming that he has always been as bad as he was for the Penguins.



He's mostly been a mediocre #4 defenseman over his career, and honestly I think he's paid to be about that at this point anyway. Purely in terms of value, I don't view a #4D coming off a bad year and a 3C coming off a bad year as much different in value, if the contracts are basically the same.

It's hard to directly compare them because KK was deployed more offensively than Graves was but KK definitely out performed him this past year and is quite a bit younger.

Graves' past results aren't exactly anything to write home about either. He wasn't particularly great with the Devils. He was fine, but nothing special. So it's not like there's exactly a level that you're looking for from him where he even lives up to that contract imo. If he provided for us what he provided for the Devils I think it's still not a great contract.

So I dunno. If I'm Carolina I pass on that I think unless the Pens are eating part of Graves' contract.

When has Kotkaniemi shown to be anything better than this, though?

Kotkaniemi does have a bit more value due to being younger, but he's a 3C coming off a bad year while Graves is a #4D coming off a bad year. There really isn't much of a difference in value between those two roles if the contracts are the same.

Kotkaniemi's best season was 43 points in 82 games. His second best season 34 points in 79 games. He's paid about $5 million long-term while he has played at 2C levels maybe once in his career.

 

[Pancakes]

Graves obviously had a bad season for the Penguins last year, but I think people need to look at his overall track record rather than just assuming that he has always been as bad as he was for the Penguins.



He's mostly been a mediocre #4 defenseman over his career, and honestly I think he's paid to be about that at this point anyway. Purely in terms of value, I don't view a #4D coming off a bad year and a 3C coming off a bad year as much different in value, if the contracts are basically the same.



When has Kotkaniemi shown to be anything better than this, though?

Kotkaniemi does have a bit more value due to being younger, but he's a 3C coming off a bad year while Graves is a #4D coming off a bad year. There really isn't much of a difference in value between those two roles if the contracts are the same.

Kotkaniemi's best season was 43 points in 82 games. His second best season 34 points in 79 games. He's paid about $5 million long-term while he has played at 2C levels maybe once in his career.

I think the age difference is what makes the value be a fair bit different. KK still has a chance to become something better than what he is. Graves is much older. His ceiling is probably him returning to the level he was at with the Devils aka mediocre 4th d like you said.

I don't see why if you're the Canes you want to take back a mediocre 4th d on a similarly questionable contract to KK unless you really reaallly like Ponomarev or whatever prospect/pick the Pens would package in the deal.

I'd gladly do that deal were I the Pens though. Just not sure Carolina would.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the age difference is what makes the value be a fair bit different. KK still has a chance to become something better than what he is. Graves is much older. His ceiling is probably him returning to the level he was at with the Devils aka mediocre 4th d like you said.

I don't see why if you're the Canes you want to take back a mediocre 4th d on a similarly questionable contract to KK unless you really reaallly like Ponomarev or whatever prospect/pick the Pens would package in the deal.

I'd gladly do that deal were I the Pens though. Just not sure Carolina would.

Because Kotkaniemi likely doesn't have much of an upside either.

Idk, I think you're just overrating Kotkaniemi here. I think the best case scenario with him is a fringe 2C/3C, which I'm not even sure that he's worth his contract if he ends up that.

If Kotkaniemi wasn't a high pick, I don't think anyone would view him as more than a bottom-6 center.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Geno always got 3rd line wingers, but he was good enough to make it work. Now he's too old to do so, and Sully hasn't figured it out.

To be fair, lots of teams build 1 dominant line and ride off of that, so there is that as well.

Geno's had Neal and Kessel. He hasn't always had 3rd liners. /shrug

-edit- But I agree with the latter part. This team just can't/won't find genuine production drivers to put on each of the top two lines anymore.

 

[Pancakes]

Because Kotkaniemi likely doesn't have much of an upside either.

Idk, I think you're just overrating Kotkaniemi here. I think the best case scenario with him is a fringe 2C/3C, which I'm not even sure that he's worth his contract if he ends up that.

If Kotkaniemi wasn't a high pick, I don't think anyone would view him as more than a bottom-6 center.

I just think if you're Carolina why in the world would you want Ryan Graves unless you think you can fix him? He was never all that good to begin with. KK has theoretical upside even if he's also not that good.

Maybe I'm wrong and Carolina is that desperate to offload KK that they'd be willing to do something like that just to be rid of him *shrug*. I don't follow them closely enough to say.