Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[Andy99]

Other teams actually do things when they fail versus expectations over and over. We just don't remember anymore.

We do things…we just change out the bottom six failed players for new failed bottom six players lol…and we sign shitty D men

 

[eXile3]

Boy, Jake really pushed them over the edge didn't he????

I'll make the argument that Bunting was needed more by the current roster than Jake......and you throw in 4 prospects, 2 with a decent pedigree. Great job by Dubas.

Jake played well. They lost because Shesterkin is a beast. Everyone of those games was close. I did not come out of that series thinking the Rangers were materially better at any position other than goalie. It was a pretty even matchup outside that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jake played well. They lost because Shesterkin is a beast. Everyone of those games was close. I did not come out of that series thinking the Rangers were materially better at any position other than goalie. It was a pretty even matchup outside that.

Boy, Jake really pushed them over the edge didn't he????

I'll make the argument that Bunting was needed more by the current roster than Jake......and you throw in 4 prospects, 2 with a decent pedigree. Great job by Dubas.

Honestly I think both things are right here. Guentzel played well and wasn't really at fault for why they lost, but trading what they traded for Guentzel only to lose in the 2nd round kinda sucks.

They made the conference finals last year, yet lost in round 2 this year after trading for Guentzel. Adding Guentzel didn't really improve their chances (they would have won in round 1 without him), which kinda sucks considering what they gave up for him.

 

[SEALBound]

Does make me wonder if they were better off keeping Bunting than adding Jake. Or trading someone other than Bunting for Jake. Oh well, is what it is. That's hockey. Iginla didn't work out so well for us but whatever.

On the main board, someone suggested Smith @50% for Drury. They think he will be due a "show me" deal. I think he's another player that is poised for a big step forward if given the right chances. I think that would be a great deal for us. Adding Pono, Drury, Koivunen, and then someone like Kaliyev could really go far in revamping the roster for fairly cheap.

DOC-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Kaliyev
Pono-Drury-Rakell
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

With several guys that could work up and down the lineup. Add Yager, Puustinen, and Koivunen into the mix...we could be okay in transition.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yes and that opportunity ended up failing, which means paying those assets for a rental was a failure.

They lost earlier in the playoffs this year than they did last year. Who cares what kind of regular season production Guentzel had? When the point of the trade was to go on a cup run, and they didn’t do that, the trade was obviously a failure.

I'm not of the belief that every season that ends without a Cup is a complete and utter failure. They had a contender and made upgrades that gave them their best chance at a Cup run without making a significant dent in their prospect pool.

Injuries happen. Hot goalies happen. Life happens. But better to try than hoard your futures like the Caps often did.

I am curious what changed between Ryan and Nuke re: player assistance suspensions counting against the cap though.

 

[Gurglesons]

Does make me wonder if they were better off keeping Bunting than adding Jake. Or trading someone other than Bunting for Jake. Oh well, is what it is. That's hockey. Iginla didn't work out so well for us but whatever.

On the main board, someone suggested Smith @50% for Drury. They think he will be due a "show me" deal. I think he's another player that is poised for a big step forward if given the right chances. I think that would be a great deal for us. Adding Pono, Drury, Koivunen, and then someone like Kaliyev could really go far in revamping the roster for fairly cheap.

DOC-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Kaliyev
Pono-Drury-Rakell
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

With several guys that could work up and down the lineup. Add Yager, Puustinen, and Koivunen into the mix...we could be okay in transition.

Bunting was a 4th liner in Carolina and playing 2nd PP.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not of the belief that every season that ends without a Cup is a complete and utter failure. They had a contender and made upgrades that gave them their best chance at a Cup run without making a significant dent in their prospect pool.

Injuries happen. Hot goalies happen. Life happens. But better to try than hoard your futures like the Caps often did.

I am curious what changed between Ryan and Nuke re: player assistance suspensions counting against the cap though.

It wasn't just that they ended up not winning a cup, it's that they also ended up losing even earlier in the playoffs than they did last year. And that's with them getting a stupidly easy matchup in round 1.

At absolute best, I think you can argue that they didn't pay anything of note for him but it was still a failure because they didn't win. So that would be a "it didn't work out, but who cares?" type of thing. I just can't see rationalizing the Guentzel acquisition as anything better than that for them. Now if he re-signs, that obviously changes things.

 

[SEALBound]

Bunting was a 4th liner in Carolina and playing 2nd PP.

Okay.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Does make me wonder if they were better off keeping Bunting than adding Jake. Or trading someone other than Bunting for Jake. Oh well, is what it is. That's hockey. Iginla didn't work out so well for us but whatever.

Yeah I think the Iginla trade is a good comparison for the Guentzel trade for Carolina. The Penguins didn't really give up anything of note for Iginla and he was pretty good for them (11 points in 13 regular season games, 12 points in 15 playoff games). But would anyone really say that deal was a "success" for the Penguins? I don't think anyone would argue that.

The deal wasn't disastrous because they didn't give up anything of note for him, but it still was a failure because he was brought in to win a cup and they didn't win a cup.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I think the Iginla trade is a good comparison for the Guentzel trade for Carolina. The Penguins didn't really give up anything of note for Iginla and he was pretty good for them (11 points in 13 regular season games, 12 points in 15 playoff games). But would anyone really say that deal was a "success" for the Penguins? I don't think anyone would argue that.

The deal wasn't disastrous because they didn't give up anything of note for him, but it still was a failure because he was brought in to win a cup and they didn't win a cup.

If this is the mindset 95% of deadline deals are failures.

Just seems like a really dumb mindset.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If this is the mindset 95% of deadline deals are failures.

Just seems like a really dumb mindset.

Yes they are?

If you're trading assets for win-now help and you don't win that year, and the guys you traded for aren't retained, how is that anything but a failure?

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes they are?

If you're trading assets for win-now help and you don't win that year, and the guys you traded for aren't retained, how is that anything but a failure?

I mean if that's your mindset fair. Just seems awfully dumb in my shoes.

 

[SEALBound]

Yes they are?

If you're trading assets for win-now help and you don't win that year, and the guys you traded for aren't retained, how is that anything but a failure?

It's 100% a failure but I think there are certainly different "levels of failure" that you can attach to various trades relative to how teams do.

Like last year, Boston gave up a TON to go get Bertuzzi and Orlov and they got upset in the first round. Certainly a bigger failure that the Guentzel trade.

The failure here with the Hurricanes is still a failures but one that's probably more tolerable than others in the past. Had they giving us Nadeau/Jackson/etc and a 1st, that would have been a major blunder.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Believe me when I say I'd love to point and laugh even more at the Canes but they didn't do SO badly. What did they really give up? They are nice prospects to US and I will absolutely reserve full judgement until they show what they can do but in the end it was kinda Bunting and a gaggle of second rounders. Considering they only got to round 2 that isn't a great trade but it isn't really a disaster one, either.

 

[Gurglesons]

Believe me when I say I'd love to point and laugh even more at the Canes but they didn't do SO badly. What did they really give up? They are nice prospects to US and I will absolutely reserve full judgement until they show what they can do but in the end it was kinda Bunting and a gaggle of second rounders. Considering they only got to round 2 that isn't a great trade but it isn't really a disaster one, either.

They got out of cap heading into next year and gave up nothing that matters. It was a huge win for them in my eyes.

Corey Pronman's NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 14 Hurricanes led by Alexander Nikishin

Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization. Plus, what to expect of every player.

theathletic.com

Pronman didn’t have a single prospect they gave up on his list as anything but scratch offs. They lost a 2nd and Bunting who they wanted to get rid of.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They got out of cap heading into next year and gave up nothing that matters. It was a huge win for them in my eyes.

Corey Pronman's NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 14 Hurricanes led by Alexander Nikishin

Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization. Plus, what to expect of every player.

theathletic.com

Pronman didn’t have a single prospect they gave up on his list as anything but scratch offs. They lost a 2nd and Bunting who they wanted to get rid of.

I wouldn't go so far as saying "huge" just kinda... inconsequential to them. Like sure of course they are furious as a fanbase/franchise right now but it has nothing to do with the Guentzel trade. Like you said... they didn't give up any of their best prospects or young players (or a first rounder turns out), cleared a little cap and are still solidly contenders... or at least looked at that way.

I'm not upset at the return... not saying that. But then again I never bought into the whole Jake "HUGE HAUL" Guentzel stuff.

 

[Pancakes]

I mean if that's your mindset fair. Just seems awfully dumb in my shoes.

Yeah I think that's a stupid mindset to have. I would rather judge my GM's moves based on did they put the team in a good position to succeed while not sacrificing too much of the future. And I think Wadell did that with his Guentzel trade.

If you start judging everything on whether a team won a cup or not then everything that didn't lead to a cup becomes a failure and I think that's an extremely narrow way to view things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They got out of cap heading into next year and gave up nothing that matters. It was a huge win for them in my eyes.

Corey Pronman's NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 14 Hurricanes led by Alexander Nikishin

Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization. Plus, what to expect of every player.

theathletic.com

Pronman didn’t have a single prospect they gave up on his list as anything but scratch offs. They lost a 2nd and Bunting who they wanted to get rid of.

And Craig Button had Koivunen as the 34th ranked prospect in hockey before he was traded:

Cutter Gauthier, Alexander Nikishin lead Craig Button’s top 50 NHL-affiliated prospects list | TSN

Cutter Gauthier was in the midst of some controversy this season, but there's nothing controversial about Craig Button ranking him at No. 1.

www.tsn.ca

Also maybe Pronman only had Koivunen as a "scratch-off" because Koivunen had 28 points in 52 games in 2022-2023, and that list was released in August 2023. Maybe his reputation when he had like 50 points in 50 games in the Liiga in March 2024 was higher than it was in August 2023?

 

[Gurglesons]

And Craig Button had Koivunen as the 34th ranked prospect in hockey before he was traded:

Cutter Gauthier, Alexander Nikishin lead Craig Button’s top 50 NHL-affiliated prospects list | TSN

Cutter Gauthier was in the midst of some controversy this season, but there's nothing controversial about Craig Button ranking him at No. 1.

www.tsn.ca

Also maybe Pronman only had Koivunen as a "scratch-off" because Koivunen had 28 points in 52 games in 2022-2023, and that list was released in August 2023. Maybe his reputation when he had like 50 points in 50 games in the Liiga in March 2024 was higher than it was in August 2023?

Did you really bring up Craig Button’s prospect rankings as a positive lol?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Did you really bring up Craig Button’s prospect rankings as a positive lol?

Did you really bring up Corey Pronman's prospect rankings as a positive lol?

Pronman had Daniel Sprong as the 4th best prospect in hockey when he played for the Penguins. He had him ranked 4th after 2016-2017 and then 27th after 2017-2018, yet somehow his scouting is accurate while Button is wrong?

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Iginla didn't work out so well for us but whatever.

That's Left Wing Jarome Iginla to you.

 

[Gurglesons]

Did you really bring up Corey Pronman's prospect rankings as a positive lol?

Pronman had Daniel Sprong as the 4th best prospect in hockey when he played for the Penguins. He had him ranked 4th after 2016-2017 and then 27th after 2017-2018, yet somehow his scouting is accurate while Button is wrong?

I've generally thought Pronman has been pretty solid in his prospect rankings.

Craig Button is arguably one of the worst GMs ever and a total clown.

Daniel Sprong was a very good prospect so I don't really see the issue with that. Also can't seem to find the ranking where he put Sprong at 4th. Do you have a link?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've generally thought Pronman has been pretty solid in his prospect rankings.

Craig Button is arguably one of the worst GMs ever and a total clown.

Daniel Sprong was a very good prospect so I don't really see the issue with that. Also can't seem to find the ranking where he put Sprong at 4th. Do you have a link?

I was wrong, it wasn't as quite as high as #4. He had Sprong at #43 after the 2015 draft, had him #16 after the 2015-2016 season and then had him at #27 after the 2016-2017 season.

Top NHL prospects for the 2016-17 NHL season

abcnews.go.com

Sprong was higher than all of Rantanen, Provorov and Connor at the time, and even comments on the reddit post mentioned how insane that seemed.

 

[wizmet12]

Getting rid of Smith and Rakell for different options, adding DeBrusk we could add 3 lines of solid depth.

I'm ok with getting rid of Smith/ Rakell, but why would DeBrusk is gonna sign here?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't want to re-hash the Koivunen argument all over again, I think his upside is a Jussi Jokinen caliber top-6 winger that's probably a fringe top-75 prospect in hockey, probably more in the 60-70 or so range. The Canes can afford to trade that for Guentzel because he is their 4th best prospect after Nikishin, Nadeau and Morrow, but I don't think it's fair whatsoever to argue Koivunen is a nothing piece just because he was only Carolina's 4th best prospect and try to simplify the Guentzel deal to "Bunting and a 2nd". I think he and Blake are very comparable prospects in terms of rankings and I would have been just as happy with Blake as I am with Koivunen.

But to the point of whether the Guentzel trade was a "failure" for the Canes, the argument I'm making is that they basically paid those assets to not change their season results at all. They could have either held onto those assets or traded them for more long-term help, especially considering Koivunen and a 2nd probably gets you more in the off-season than at the deadline. They paid a good chunk of change in terms of futures to lose in the same round that they would have lost in had they not made that trade. I don't see how you can argue that's anything but a failure.