Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[Bleach Clean]

I wouldn't say its "blind faith" I have, I'm not just going to accept any old trade they make as sacrosanct just because they make it....but I'm willing to give them leeway since they know more than everyone else around here. I don't think they'd be keen on trading a legit #1 center if they didn't feel it necessary, and I don't believe they will, unless they feel it's necessary.

You don't accept any old trade they make, but if they trade him you'll accept it because they know more than anyone else... That's a contradiction.

Management is fallible. If somebody takes the position that all evidence that assails management is invalid, that's a weakness in that rationale, not the evidence. No one is above reproach. Least of all the people that helmed this Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle.

And once that data is brought in, it becomes pretty difficult to reconcile what we know with what they've said.

 

[Diablo2020]

You don't accept any old trade they make, but if they trade him you'll accept it because they know more than anyone else... That's a contradiction.

Management is fallible. If somebody takes the position that all evidence that assails their position is invalid, that's a weakness in that rationale, not the evidence. No one is above reproach. Least of all the people that helmed this Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle.

And once that data is brought in, their position becomes tenuous at best.

I have a huge sample size of this managements judging of defensemen.

Its been a steady influx of actual NHL quality defenders.

After years of Matt Bartowski and Derek Pouliot's we're like a month away (Willander) from sending Noah Juulsen to the moon and icing the best defense corps ive seen since Sami Salo patrolled the D.

Filip Hronek
Marcus Pettersson
Elias Pettersson
Tom Willander
Kirill Kudryatsev
Saywer Mynio

All projecting to outplay their draft spot and/or cost to acquire.

But what they havent had to do is really judge centers. They were blessed with 3 top ones and now we have 1.

Im also not going to happily accept any old trade they make, but im not worried about them aquiring the players they think are right because so far, great judges of NHL talent!

The only centers telegraphed or actively sought out have been Teddy B and Lindholm. One is a homerun for what he is and what we needed, and the other was just best player available at the time and we never did try too hard to keep him.

Theyve been fine in a small center-hunting sample size so far, and I like what I see in Chytil so far.

Lets see how they replace Miller and/or Petey before we hold them to such high standards, even if this mess is a little of their own fault.

 

[kanucks25]

Dead last.

I had no idea there were people who didnt think that Tocchets system is bad for offence. Wasnt expecting to have to argue this point at all

Also Im not excusing Pettersson. So no need to argue that. Im just saying the system affects the counting stats of all our players. Including the lackluster start of Millers season.

If you are motivated to ignore this fact for some reason, I really cant help you.

I only ignore it because nobody seems to be able to give any real reasons Tocchet's system allegedly stifles offense. It's mostly just "offense bad so coach bad".

Yes he preaches the 3rd man not diving in recklessly and hard back checks but those kind of rules are the mark of any good team.

People keep claiming that he wants his players to dump and chase, always pass up to the D-man in the ozone, or always make the extra cute pass instead of shooting but he's refuted that multiple times in his media avails. Unless you're claiming he preaches the opposite to his players behind closed doors which would be quite the take.

Why do you think Chytil has looked so dangerous so far? He holds onto pucks and moves his feet, two things Tocchet has been trying to hammer home and often sounds like he's directly speaking to Petey without mentioning his name.

And Miller had a monster season under Tocchet last year. It's quite disingenuous to dismiss that and instead refer to the half season of lesser results during what was obviously a tumultuous period for the team and Miller especially.

So if you have any actual technical information related to systems that would suggest they are doing something that neuters the offense I'd love to hear it. In fact I'd like to be wrong here so I could actually learn something new about systems.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I only ignore it because nobody seems to be able to give any real reasons Tocchet's system allegedly stifles offense. It's mostly just "offense bad so coach bad".

Ironically the only one probably who needs to embrace the system left on the team. Not all of it, but enough. EP has generated offense at a PPG level at every level he's played at. He just needs to rediscover his game, la.

Tocchet can generate offense, but it's his way. Through anger and aggression. If EP can pick his spots, I feel a Dustin Brown-like resurgence next season or in the playoffs, God forbid we can make it there.

 

[Rick Rocket]

I only ignore it because nobody seems to be able to give any real reasons Tocchet's system allegedly stifles offense. It's mostly just "offense bad so coach bad".

Yes he preaches the 3rd man not diving in recklessly and hard back checks but those kind of rules are the mark of any good team.

People keep claiming that he wants his players to dump and chase, always pass up to the D-man in the ozone, or always make the extra cute pass instead of shooting but he's refuted that multiple times in his media avails. Unless you're claiming he preaches the opposite to his players behind closed doors which would be quite the take.

Why do you think Chytil has looked so dangerous so far? He holds onto pucks and moves his feet, two things Tocchet has been trying to hammer home and often sounds like he's directly speaking to Petey without mentioning his name.

And Miller had a monster season under Tocchet last year. It's quite disingenuous to dismiss that and instead refer to the half season of lesser results during what was obviously a tumultuous period for the team and Miller especially.

So if you have any actual technical information related to systems that would suggest they are doing something that neuters the offense I'd love to hear it. In fact I'd like to be wrong here so I could actually learn something new about systems.

While boring, dump and chase can be effective. We just lacked the speed/tenacity on the wings to retrieve pucks. However, Tocchet kept on trying and trying. My haunting memory is Heinen always coming up short.

Just like anyone can see that our powerplays was so ineffective and predictable with our players standing still on the perimeter night in and night out. Except our beautiful Huggy of course.

It's almost as if the coaching staff were oblivious to the problems and or simply incapable of making adjustments.

It's confusing as continuing to give Juulsen minutes.

At least with the speed of the new forwards, the return to form of DJ and the offensive ability of Meaty and D-Peter, the coaching staff have more options.

 

[Canucker]

You don't accept any old trade they make, but if they trade him you'll accept it because they know more than anyone else... That's a contradiction.

Management is fallible. If somebody takes the position that all evidence that assails management is invalid, that's a weakness in that rationale, not the evidence. No one is above reproach. Least of all the people that helmed this Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle.

And once that data is brought in, it becomes pretty difficult to reconcile what we know with what they've said.

Who is suggesting that management is infallible or "above reproach"? I'm only trusting that they have more information than anyone around here, and are better equipped to make a decision that best suits the organization's goals and if they include EP or not. Whether they make a good decision, or bad is yet to be determined.

And I wouldn't characterize management as "helming" the Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle, they were left to navigate it, nobody around here had any complaints about Miller and Pettersson's relationship, or lack thereof, after last season...it was more, "they kind of don't like each other but they deal with it as professionals and it seems to be working"...yet we're supposed to blame them for not trading Miller sooner, or trading Horvat instead of Miller, despite the success the team had last year? I guess they were supposed to predict that it was all going to crash down around them? I didn't see a lot of people around here predicting that was going to happen.

 

[VintageBure]

He’s a slower skater right now than he was when he entered the league by a few KMs… I don’t know if it’s training or injuries but that is a huge red flag. He should be faster in his prime not slower. Remember when petey was considered not a strong goal threat and then in the offseason he developed one of the best shots in world? What happened ?

 

[racerjoe]

Who is suggesting that management is infallible or "above reproach"? I'm only trusting that they have more information than anyone around here, and are better equipped to make a decision that best suits the organization's goals and if they include EP or not. Whether they make a good decision, or bad is yet to be determined.

And I wouldn't characterize management as "helming" the Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle, they were left to navigate it, nobody around here had any complaints about Miller and Pettersson's relationship, or lack thereof, after last season...it was more, "they kind of don't like each other but they deal with it as professionals and it seems to be working"...yet we're supposed to blame them for not trading Miller sooner, or trading Horvat instead of Miller, despite the success the team had last year? I guess they were supposed to predict that it was all going to crash down around them? I didn't see a lot of people around here predicting that was going to happen.

So if your opinion is management knows more than us, and they have chosen to keep Pettersson, and even now with his pour play have taken him off the market, what does that tell you?

 

[Canucker]

So if your opinion is management knows more than us, and they have chosen to keep Pettersson, and even now with his pour play have taken him off the market, what does that tell you?

It doesn't really tell me anything at the moment, but if they keep him beyond July 1st it tells me that they are more confident that this is a temporary thing and they have faith in the player to rebound, more so than they are concerned that it is permanent issue or that EP isn't someone they think is a problem for them.

 

[racerjoe]

It doesn't really tell me anything at the moment, but if they keep him beyond July 1st it tells me that they are more confident that this is a temporary thing and they have faith in the player to rebound, more so than they are concerned that it is permanent issue or that EP isn't someone they think is a problem for them.

I mean they have currently pulled him from the trade market. Unless something changes or someone overpays I don't see us trading him so that should say something.

 

[Diablo2020]

I mean they have currently pulled him from the trade market. Unless something changes or someone overpays I don't see us trading him so that should say something.

Dude be real. Subjectively, the only thing more obvious than local prospect guru turned upcoming insider Cam Robinson reporting "The Canucks have decided to pull Petey off the market" would be if it was announced by Josh Yohe outta Pittsburgh or something at 7am on a Wednesday.

I hope you can see a forest thru the trees of Rutherford wanting to immedietly draw the attention off Pettersson once Miller was traded.

Did you honestly think he was going to say "Ok now Miller is behind us, we're full steam ahead all hands on deck to deal with Pettersson now"?

Nah man you feed Cam Robinson a bone and start your full steam ahead approach, but behind closed doors this time.

The possibility is incredibly real. And its a blessing.

 

[Canucker]

I mean they have currently pulled him from the trade market. Unless something changes or someone overpays I don't see us trading him so that should say something.

Why should that say something?

 

[racerjoe]

Why should that say something?

Cause it says they aren't trading him... which goes to your point of not trading him by July 1st....

 

[Canucker]

Cause it says they aren't trading him... which goes to your point of not trading him by July 1st....

And they can't change their minds?

 

[racerjoe]

And they can't change their minds?

They can... but it should tell you that at least at this moment they think he will rebound...

 

[Canucker]

They can... but it should tell you that at least at this moment they think he will rebound...

Why would it tell me that? It just tells me that its been reported that he's been taken off the market...it might mean they think they have a better chance of getting a better return in the off-season or at the draft, I don't know? You could be right, but it certainly doesn't tell me anything solid.

 

[Bobby9]

My last prediction. IF he stays on the Canucks he will be bought out before 2028. I am moving on from proving many of you wrong. This debate is now finished.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

"offense bad so coach bad"

No. Not bad.

We are also leaders in xG against.

The mission statement is low event hockey. It happens everywhere Tocchet has coached.

Id say with 18 months and counting here, its on you to prove its not how he wants us playing.

 

[Diablo2020]

My last prediction. IF he stays on the Canucks he will be bought out before 2028. I am moving on from proving many of you wrong. This debate is now finished.

Agree, but its a weird and tricky timeline for me so I understand some of the hesitation on fans part.

On one hand, I also see him on the EK and OEL arc to buyoutville.

I see him traded, and the new fans immedietly hate the deal and he becomes what EK and OEL were to SJ and us, respectively.

There's a version of Petey that is still an elite player at his position, his new team enjoys a few years of his 11.5 while going nowhere, but by season 3 the buyout or retention rumors start. By year 4, EK is retained 13% and dumped for a late 1st and scraps.

And there's the OEL version where his new team brings him in and he's outperformed by the younger center already there. His ridiculous contract makes it clear his new team cant build around him, his injuries slow him down even more, and he's bought out 2 years into the trade.

Meanwhile, the Canucks currently today probably have a 2-3 year window with Hughes. So even if my above two comparables are totally correct, doesnt Petey give us the best chance to win TODAY?

I'll be the first to admit yes.

Even a homerun package like Norris, Demelo, pick that becomes Stutzle, and two 2nds wont make us better today. Again I admit it.

But I dont care about a so called 2-3 year Hughes window. I want the assets now so I can go shopping.

What am I shopping for, yeah top 6 centers (oMg yOu MeAn LiKe PeTeY?!?) and thats ok.

We're a Boeser, Petey and Demko away from stripping the failed core. Boeser and Demko look like they are going to flush themselves out without any outside help due to contract and injuries.

I feel like fans think we are one or two original JT Miller trades away from contenders.

Just like then, right player, wrong time.

We still have a team with 3 stale question marks in the core and the likes of Goldobin, Granlund, Gudbranson and Pouliot on the 23 man roster.

Get the 3 core done, quickly, while we're still in this imaginary Quinn Hughes window fans and management is so worried about.

 

[Diablo2020]

They can... but it should tell you that at least at this moment they think he will rebound...

I know its more a management thing but have you ever heard of the kiss of death in hockey circles?

Like when a coach is being constantly bombarded with daily gossip about his job. Every reporter is writing articles about the situation and how its fluid and at any time a shoe could drop.

Then the GM comes out and says he's sticking with their guy. No more need to discuss. End of discussion. Focusing on getting better as a team.

Honestly I half expected part of the Miller presser to have a snippet saying Petey is now off the market. Cut that discussion short immedietly.

The fact we waited a couple days for noted insider Cam Robinson to publicly quiet that noise actually kind of shocks me.

Allvin is %100 fielding calls for Petey at this very moment behind closed doors. You'd be silly to think otherwise.

We're in the part now where Buffalo Sabres reporters are writing their "Thank god we avoided THAT" articles.

Coupled with his performance for Sweden and a two week break from hockey, i'd say buckle up for an onslaught of Petey rumors sir, regardless of what Cam Robinson said on behalf of Allvin.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Who is suggesting that management is infallible or "above reproach"? I'm only trusting that they have more information than anyone around here, and are better equipped to make a decision that best suits the organization's goals and if they include EP or not. Whether they make a good decision, or bad is yet to be determined.

And I wouldn't characterize management as "helming" the Miller/Horvat/Pettersson debacle, they were left to navigate it, nobody around here had any complaints about Miller and Pettersson's relationship, or lack thereof, after last season...it was more, "they kind of don't like each other but they deal with it as professionals and it seems to be working"...yet we're supposed to blame them for not trading Miller sooner, or trading Horvat instead of Miller, despite the success the team had last year? I guess they were supposed to predict that it was all going to crash down around them? I didn't see a lot of people around here predicting that was going to happen.

Management's lack of foresight led to the eventual trade of Miller. They knew what he was like in the room vs Horvat and Pettersson. They knew his history in NYR and TBay. His antics against Schenn and Delia. They had to handle this multiple times behind the scenes. Now he's gone and they're chasing a 2C... They helmed that failure.

It's an example that access to information doesn't inherently lead to the correct decisions. And so, why prop up their word against all conflicting information? You've positioned all data points as either questionable or anecdotes by 'Petey truthers' or 'HF Doctors'. Is that rational?

An appeal like this only works if the evidence supports the claim. Here, it does not.

 

[Canucker]

Management's lack of foresight led to the eventual trade of Miller. They knew what he was like in the room vs Horvat and Pettersson. They knew his history in NYR and TBay. His antics against Schenn and Delia. They had to handle this multiple times behind the scenes. Now he's gone and they're chasing a 2C... They helmed that failure.

It's an example that access to information doesn't inherently lead to the correct decisions. And so, why prop up their word against all conflicting information? You've positioned all data points as either questionable or anecdotes by 'Petey truthers'. Is that rational?

An appeal like this works only works if the evidence supports the claim. Here, it does not.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Diablo2020]

Management's lack of foresight led to the eventual trade of Miller. They knew what he was like in the room vs Horvat and Pettersson. They knew his history in NYR and TBay. His antics against Schenn and Delia. They had to handle this multiple times behind the scenes. Now he's gone and they're chasing a 2C... They helmed that failure.

Lets play devils advocate and say Frankie ok'd a rebuild day one January 2022 for Allvin.

Whats the best case scenario?

Miller for Chytil, Lundkvist, 1st
Boeser for trade deadline prices
Demko for an absolute haul

What are we trending or about to end up with, February 2025?

Miller for Chytil, Mancini, 1st
Boeser for trade deadline pieces
Demko --> worthless
Petey -> Wasnt included in 2021 but in 2025 yolo!

Managment didnt have a lack of foresight we just Willie D'd ourselves into a false sense of 48 win security AGAIN and thought we were a contender.

We HAD to sign Miller. For the optics.

We laugh at Buffalo and Detroit types who might have to rebuild the rebuild and here we are hopefully backing into the lottery like 2017 and 2018 again.

Spending to the cap to win a cup while falling arse backwards into a rebuild saviour instead while actively doing everything we can not to tank.

Now instead of being gifted #7 overall picks that turn into gold we're going to have to mine it in trades because again, we're just too solid to tank.

 

[Curm]

My last prediction. IF he stays on the Canucks he will be bought out before 2028. I am moving on from proving many of you wrong. This debate is now finished.

Well, that's bold. If he stays, finishes the regular season and playoffs status quo, and starts next year and into December or so the same way, fans may need to brace for any potential deal to require retention on the Canucks end.

Hopefully he can turn it around, it's better for the team whether he stays or goes, and at least if they do move on they'll get a suitable return.

 

[I am toxic]

the evidence points to Petey signing the $96m contract without management doing their due diligence on his health. The contract was signed what, early March 2024, weeks after his drop in play was noticed and we know the knee began bothering him by end of January

Rutherford and Allvin have to downplay any injury to cover their asses to the owner for failing to do their job properly . Pissing off your star 1c and tanking his trade value? Priceless

Tocchet - like many dinosaurs with brains the size of a small walnut* - thinks the tendinitis is a nothing burger, and that Petey should train and play through the pain. Inviting permanent injury to your star 1c and pissing him off? Priceless

And then their are media and ""fan" takes calling into question Petey's character because he is played injured for the team. Making your star 1c want to get out of town? Priceless

But of all those takes above that I ridicule, they pale in comparison to the utter and infinite contempt I have for Canucks medical staff. Beyond priceless, and that is inconceivable

*apologies to small walnuts everywhere. Take solace knowing you are still almost as big as a large brazil nut