Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[66-30-33]

Yeah, he's going to be viewed as a "every team needs a guy like him" dude and he'll get interest as a center and wing. I see him getting a disgusting contract. But it may have to be us who ponies it up haha.

Zucker could get a high AAV on a short deal but the injury history and age will give some teams pause. I give us a 50% shot to bring him back at 4/$18M or thereabouts

We should stay away and rip off teams looking to get under the cap.

Pens: Give us your good players
Them: What you giving us?
Pens: Just some crap
Them: DEAL!

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I just think you could situationally go higher on any of those numbers for
A) A great player
B) To get rid of Granlund in the process

What I continue to have in mind is a terrible goalie contract for a decent goalie in exchange for Granlund. I wonder if Markstrom is that guy.

Or hell, go get Darnell Nurse for Granlund. (ducks)

Markstrom would be a very bold dice roll after the season he just had. He could be much worse or much better than Jarry next year. Poor in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
Does he merit any more trust than Jarry at this point? Career .909 guy.

I could see Granlund performing at a 3M value for us next year if not traded. He did really well defensively, he PK'd well and is bound to improve somewhat offensively. In that case you'd possibly be leaving your goaltending very vulnerable just to have that surplus 2 mil to spend elsewhere. And then you burn that on a bad goalie at 6M x 3, if the regression continues. At that point the window is 100% shut.

I'd explore every reasonable alternative before taking this risk. Absolute last resort.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Markstrom would be a very bold dice roll after the season he just had. He could be much worse or much better than Jarry next year. Poor in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
Does he merit any more trust than Jarry at this point? Career .909 guy.

I could see Granlund performing at a 3M value for us next year if not traded. He did really well defensively, he PK'd well and is bound to improve somewhat offensively. In that case you'd possibly be leaving your goaltending very vulnerable just to have that surplus 2 mil to spend elsewhere. And then you burn that on a bad goalie at 6M x 3, if the regression continues. At that point the window is 100% shut.

I'd explore every reasonable alternative before taking this risk. Absolute last resort.

At this point, despite Jarry being a "better" goalie the fact remains that the team does not trust him. His terrible 2021 playoffs, his 2022 unavailability and his injury/performance issues in the 2nd half this year. They need a different guy. They still have CDS for better or worse as a distant 2nd option.

I don't agree about Granlund. I get that his GF/GA stats were decent but he had nothing out there. He is also weak on the puck and on the boards. I see his contributions as better served by an ELC guy - Nylander for example. Granlund belongs in a European league somewhere. There isn't value in a guy who can only see the ice and pass. So I don't see it as $2M surplus value. It's closer to $4M in dumping him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

At this point, despite Jarry being a "better" goalie the fact remains that the team does not trust him. His terrible 2021 playoffs, his 2022 unavailability and his injury/performance issues in the 2nd half this year. They need a different guy. They still have CDS for better or worse as a distant 2nd option.

I mean different guy if he's better, sure.

I don't agree about Granlund. I get that his GF/GA stats were decent but he had nothing out there. He is also weak on the puck and on the boards. I see his contributions as better served by an ELC guy - Nylander for example. Granlund belongs in a European league somewhere. There isn't value in a guy who can only see the ice and pass. So I don't see it as $2M surplus value. It's closer to $4M in dumping him.

I think he generated more scoring chances than the board acknowledges, but he was piss poor with the end product. And it's unfair to say that all he did was pass when he played this well defensively and was the #1 minute eating forward on the PK.
Considering how we missed the playoffs because Carter got nuked defensively, I don't take it for granted when L3 can shut the door.
I could see Nylander performing up to a 3M level or so if things go well. He's got near 2nd line scoring rates at the NHL level so far and has refined his 2-way game. He might find a fit with Malkin at some point. A better comparison would be like Archibald or something, or a guy we know can't bring much more than 750k.

Granlund just had 64 points the prior year and 41 this year, so I don't think it's right to label him as a league minimum value guy until this malaise lasts longer.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I mean different guy if he's better, sure.

I think he generated more scoring chances than the board acknowledges, but he was piss poor with the end product. And it's unfair to say that all he did was pass when he played this well defensively and was the #1 minute eating forward on the PK.
Considering how we missed the playoffs because Carter got nuked defensively, I don't take it for granted when L3 can shut the door.
I could see Nylander performing up to a 3M level or so if things go well. He's got bad 2nd line scoring rates at the NHL level so far and has refined his 2-way game. He might find a fit with Malkin at some point. A better comparison would be like Archibald or something, or a guy we know can't bring much more than 750k.

Granlund just had 64 points the prior year and 41 this year, so I don't think it's right to label him as a league minimum value guy until this malaise lasts longer.

He was terrible with the end product because he is terrible at end-product. This isn't some fluke.
Was he or was he not getting #1C minutes in Nashville and still just had 36 points in 58 games?

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Look at the X Gen Pens. Milan Kraft had 40 points in 66 games. That's the same kind of effectiveness Granlund showed in Nashville.

Also the Penguins played worse and had a worse record after the deadline, when Carter was buried. Including a $5M player who had 1 goal and 5 points in 21 games.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

He was terrible with the end product because he is terrible at end-product. This isn't some fluke.
Was he or was he not getting #1C minutes in Nashville and still just had 36 points in 58 games?

2003-04 Pittsburgh Penguins Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Pittsburgh Penguins Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

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Look at the X Gen Pens. Milan Kraft had 40 points in 66 games. That's the same kind of effectiveness Granlund showed in Nashville.

Also the Penguins played worse and had a worse record after the deadline, when Carter was buried. Including a $5M player who had 1 goal and 5 points in 21 games.

To maximize Granlund he needs the PP, but we made him into a PK'er. He had 28 PPP's last year. That's more than Sid this year.
At the very least PP2. Put him in a position to use his hands.

X-Gen Pens aren't an indication of anything. When you have a horrific team like that, a player like Kraft gets used in positions to produce more than he normally would. That's how he put up the points. You can see it with how his shot total skyrocketed.
Prior to that season he had 42 points in 141 games as a Penguin, in more reduced roles. Granlund on the other hand has been a 40+ point guy 7 times in this league.

Sure, his lack of scoring is a small part of the reason we struggled after the deadline. But what kinda production were we really expecting from a 3C/wing getting 67.7% D-zone starts, playing with our bottom 6'ers? 9 points instead of 5 maybe? 10? Anything more than that is asking too much in this capacity.
Poehling's offense was horrific this year, and that was his most common linemate. The other was Heinen. He got next to no time with Malkin or Rakell.

At least he ended up a +1 and improved the PK. His lines held the fort.
If we wanna look at reasons we struggled after the deadline, how about Rakell (-8), Malkin (-7), Zucker (-6) over those 21 games, when getting privileged usage?
Carter was also a -7 over that period. Not buried enough apparently. Poehling -8.
What about Jarry's .891 over his 15 games? Joseph? Petry (defensively)? There's many guys you can point fingers at.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I would love Bunting. He could be a Kunitz-like player, but he just needs to grow up.

I was intrigued by him after his last season in Arizona. But I also wasn't sure how much of it was just because Arizona needed someone to do some scoring (a la Rico Fata [edit: lol, made this comparison before seeing Doc's post bringing up the X Generation]).

Bunting has seemingly proved himself in Toronto. And of course I'd like a shit-disturber in PGH again.

 

[K Fleur]

Bunting plays with a pulse. That’d be a nice get.

 

[vodeni]

At this point, despite Jarry being a "better" goalie the fact remains that the team does not trust him. His terrible 2021 playoffs, his 2022 unavailability and his injury/performance issues in the 2nd half this year. They need a different guy. They still have CDS for better or worse as a distant 2nd option.

I don't agree about Granlund. I get that his GF/GA stats were decent but he had nothing out there. He is also weak on the puck and on the boards. I see his contributions as better served by an ELC guy - Nylander for example. Granlund belongs in a European league somewhere. There isn't value in a guy who can only see the ice and pass. So I don't see it as $2M surplus value. It's closer to $4M in dumping him.

100% on Jarry

 

[vodeni]

Bunting plays with a pulse. That’d be a nice get.

100% Any new requisition should require a simple medical check by any qualified nurse, you know thw one when they put the fingers on your wrist, watching these guys from Vegas or Florida winning in play offs, thats already half a way to the victory...

 

[Freeptop]

100% Any new requisition should require a simple medical check by any qualified nurse, you know thw one when they put the fingers on your wrist, watching these guys from Vegas or Florida winning in play offs, thats already half a way to the victory...

Not sure it will matter. Prior to coming to Pittsburgh, Zucker played in 71, 79, 82 and 81 games in the four seasons leading up to his trade to the Pens. I remember the talk on these boards around his durability being a plus!
So, I wouldn't expect that to mean much with regards to any player we could acquire.

Really, I keep coming back to Sestito talking about how most teams would just load him up with painkillers and send him back out on the ice, while the Pens' medical staff helped get him off the painkillers. Which means that contrary to the meme that the Pens' medical staff is bad at their jobs, they're actually good at them; it's just that most other teams favor getting players back on the ice over long-term health of the player. Given that, it should be expected that Pens players in general are going to spend more time off the ice than other teams, because the medical staff is trying to make sure they heal properly, rather than just pushing them back out there.

 

[molon labe]

We should stay away and rip off teams looking to get under the cap.

Pens: Give us your good players
Them: What you giving us?
Pens: Just some crap
Them: DEAL!

[ Brent Burns was traded to the Carolina Hurricanes by the San Jose Sharks on Wednesday.

San Jose received forward Steven Lorentz, goalie prospect Eetu Makiniemi, and a third-round pick in the 2023 NHL Draft. ]

- We got Petry.

If this team fails to land Marner, Matthews, Karlsson, JT Miller - or another high impact self-generating offensive talent this Summer it's on them. Absolute insanity that we continue to pick up mid-tier middle-6 forwards riding the dreams of a 20-something Sid/Geno tandem. They cannot do it alone anymore. They haven't been able to in a while. Half the names that have floated this Summer already are absolute do-nothing needle stalling moves. I haven't seen a single team beat a Guentzel + trade for Marner.

Every single year there's impact players moved around this league. Get in on the action. I'm sure more than a handful of GM's are kicking themselves for not getting after Tkachuk last year (or Burns). Several of us were on that train early and got flamed for it. Some folks just cannot see a future and only look at immediate results. Tkachuk didn't perform in the playoffs in Calgary - same folks diminishing the value of a Marner/Matthews. Going to be super crazy when they go somewhere else and are magically good hockey players again. Burns was overpaid and useless...magically in the Norris conversation again. Truly facepalm stuff.

 

[PensandCaps]

If you could guarantee me that Jarry would stay healthy, I would pay him 5 mil no question. He's an excellent starter when he plays. He never plays healthy, its annoying.

Bunting plays with a pulse. That’d be a nice get.

God he's annoying though. Great 5v5 producer, already proven to be able to play with stars. Great get, and realistically possible aswell.

 

[Empoleon8771]

[ Brent Burns was traded to the Carolina Hurricanes by the San Jose Sharks on Wednesday.

San Jose received forward Steven Lorentz, goalie prospect Eetu Makiniemi, and a third-round pick in the 2023 NHL Draft. ]

- We got Petry.

If this team fails to land Marner, Matthews, Karlsson, JT Miller - or another high impact self-generating offensive talent this Summer it's on them. Absolute insanity that we continue to pick up mid-tier middle-6 forwards riding the dreams of a 20-something Sid/Geno tandem. They cannot do it alone anymore. They haven't been able to in a while. Half the names that have floated this Summer already are absolute do-nothing needle stalling moves. I haven't seen a single team beat a Guentzel + trade for Marner.

Every single year there's impact players moved around this league. Get in on the action. I'm sure more than a handful of GM's are kicking themselves for not getting after Tkachuk last year (or Burns). Several of us were on that train early and got flamed for it. Some folks just cannot see a future and only look at immediate results. Tkachuk didn't perform in the playoffs in Calgary - same folks diminishing the value of a Marner/Matthews. Going to be super crazy when they go somewhere else and are magically good hockey players again. Burns was overpaid and useless...magically in the Norris conversation again. Truly facepalm stuff.

Lol you're setting yourself up for disappointment. With what assets would the Penguins be able to acquire Marner, Matthews or Karlsson? Maybe Miller could be attainable but that would still cost multiple 1sts.

The Penguins have very few assets, very few tradeable guys on the NHL team and enough holes to fill on the roster that acquiring another expensive player would crush their already non-existent depth.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Lol you're setting yourself up for disappointment. With what assets would the Penguins be able to acquire Marner, Matthews or Karlsson? Maybe Miller could be attainable but that would still cost multiple 1sts.

The Penguins have very few assets, very few tradeable guys on the NHL team and enough holes to fill on the roster that acquiring another expensive player would crush their already non-existent depth.

I think he's trading Guentzel to get someone

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This whole place constantly sets itself up for disappointment. That's like this place's signature move. An entire summer of theorycrafting super ambitious and spirited ways to right the ship with all these colossal moves and by August everybody's like "Oh, we re-signed Zucker and Jarry. The new FO heaped praise upon Sully in their introduction presser. Uhhhh... Well, the team's as deep as they've been since 2016!"

We just can't help ourselves as a fanbase.

 

[ChaosAgent]

This whole place constantly sets itself up for disappointment. That's like this place's signature move. An entire summer of theorycrafting super ambitious and spirited ways to right the ship with all these colossal moves and by August everybody's like "Oh, we re-signed Zucker and Jarry. The new FO heaped praise upon Sully in their introduction presser. Uhhhh... Well, the team's as deep as they've been since 2016!"

We just can't help ourselves as a fanbase.

The last 2 years you could argue that with tinkering and goaltending luck there was a pathway to actual contention. I hope after outright missing the playoffs they realize that is no longer the case. Unless, and as I think you've pointed out, they just want to give the appearance of trying to improve tix sales and ratings.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The last 2 years you could argue that with tinkering and goaltending luck there was a pathway to actual contention. I hope after outright missing the playoffs they realize that is no longer the case. Unless, and as I think you've pointed out, they just want to give the appearance of trying to improve tix sales and ratings.

I think they genuinely think too highly of themselves, to be honest. Maybe missing entirely was a smack in the face, but maybe it will be viewed as an unfortunate outcome of injuries to Jarry and a competing team like Florida getting red hot as the season wound down.

We'll see what happens. I'm not sure anything would surprise me, one way or another. Short of Sullivan being fired--that'd put me on my ass in astonishment.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I think that barely missing won't light a fire

"We almost made it, man"

Needed to be more of a Hindenberg disaster to wake any of them up

I mean, GMRH got axed, but, i don't think that's a wake up call

 

[molon labe]

Lol you're setting yourself up for disappointment. With what assets would the Penguins be able to acquire Marner, Matthews or Karlsson? Maybe Miller could be attainable but that would still cost multiple 1sts.

The Penguins have very few assets, very few tradeable guys on the NHL team and enough holes to fill on the roster that acquiring another expensive player would crush their already non-existent depth.

The trade I quoted specifically happened with ZERO assets going the other way other than cap. We didn't get in on Burns because....well who the hell knows. Lack of creativity?

We need to stop maxing our cap on nothing players. Bringing Zucker back does absolutely NOTHING for this teams' chances to win. Nothing.

And yes, as Business stated - I'm sending Guentzel out for Marner. I think Matthews is highly improbable but not impossible. I'd also happily ship Petry/Granlund and 2 1sts for Karlsson (accepted by many Sharks fans). I think Karlsson is the most attainable of the lot tbh. For Miller, he's my last choice on that list but he at least creates offense.

But the entire point is to stop targeting 'supporting' pieces. It's a tough habbit to break for an organization that's targeted 'support' for 15 straight years - but we need another player or two that can actually create offense outside of Sid/Geno and we currently have zero players that can do that. You make it happen with draft/cap/ whatever you must. The 4 players mentioned, cap space going back is heavily valued so it makes them even more attainable (if Edmonton, per se, offers 2 late 1st rounders but want 30-40% rentention on Karlsson, our 1st and minimal retention wins out even with Granlund going back since that salary is on the books for 2 years versus 4 years of retention for Karlsson)....for Toronto, they're not going to want to retain ANYTHING as they want to compete - we are one of a select few teams that can ship a win-now player AND not require retention. Tampa /Boston being others.

Anyway, my point has been stated enough.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The trade I quoted specifically happened with ZERO assets going the other way other than cap. We didn't get in on Burns because....well who the hell knows. Lack of creativity?

Because they didn't have the cap space to take on Burns' full salary like Carolina did.

The Penguins acquired Petry because it came with shipping Matheson out. It's impossible to say whether San Jose would have done Matheson for Burns with retaining like they did.

And yes, as Business stated - I'm sending Guentzel out for Marner. I think Matthews is highly improbable but not impossible. I'd also happily ship Petry/Granlund and 2 1sts for Karlsson (accepted by many Sharks fans). I think Karlsson is the most attainable of the lot tbh. For Miller, he's my last choice on that list but he at least creates offense.

Guentzel for Marner gets absolutely laughed at by the Leafs. Petry and 2 1sts for Karlsson isn't ridiculous but I would expect San Jose to be able to get better than that.

 

[66-30-33]

[ Brent Burns was traded to the Carolina Hurricanes by the San Jose Sharks on Wednesday.

San Jose received forward Steven Lorentz, goalie prospect Eetu Makiniemi, and a third-round pick in the 2023 NHL Draft. ]

- We got Petry.

If this team fails to land Marner, Matthews, Karlsson, JT Miller - or another high impact self-generating offensive talent this Summer it's on them. Absolute insanity that we continue to pick up mid-tier middle-6 forwards riding the dreams of a 20-something Sid/Geno tandem. They cannot do it alone anymore. They haven't been able to in a while. Half the names that have floated this Summer already are absolute do-nothing needle stalling moves. I haven't seen a single team beat a Guentzel + trade for Marner.

Every single year there's impact players moved around this league. Get in on the action. I'm sure more than a handful of GM's are kicking themselves for not getting after Tkachuk last year (or Burns). Several of us were on that train early and got flamed for it. Some folks just cannot see a future and only look at immediate results. Tkachuk didn't perform in the playoffs in Calgary - same folks diminishing the value of a Marner/Matthews. Going to be super crazy when they go somewhere else and are magically good hockey players again. Burns was overpaid and useless...magically in the Norris conversation again. Truly facepalm stuff.

Yeah, trade is the route we should be doing. We have some things we can trade like the Jake+ for Marner. I don't think we should trade for Karlsson though, Sully will use him as a 2nd PP guy because he's a moron and will like Letang more because he's been here longer IMO. I dunno who we should target via trade tbh but we should not use him for the 3rd line ala Kessel. Too bad we didn't have Granlund and had the freed up cap space though.

 

[66-30-33]

Because they didn't have the cap space to take on Burns' full salary like Carolina did.

The Penguins acquired Petry because it came with shipping Matheson out. It's impossible to say whether San Jose would have done Matheson for Burns with retaining like they did.



Guentzel for Marner gets absolutely laughed at by the Leafs. Petry and 2 1sts for Karlsson isn't ridiculous but I would expect San Jose to be able to get better than that.

Was a Leafs fan that said Jake+14th OA and I think something else? for Marner. I think that's what he was referring to.

edit - Poster said Jake, Petry, Pickering for Marner, Brodie.

 

[molon labe]

Because they didn't have the cap space to take on Burns' full salary like Carolina did.

The Penguins acquired Petry because it came with shipping Matheson out. It's impossible to say whether San Jose would have done Matheson for Burns with retaining like they did.



Guentzel for Marner gets absolutely laughed at by the Leafs. Petry and 2 1sts for Karlsson isn't ridiculous but I would expect San Jose to be able to get better than that.

Yes, I know. That's what I'm trying to say - and have said for years on this board but there's some sort of shared thinking here (and in our front office) that you HAVE to max your cap no matter what.

The teams with the most roster flexibility (cap, and lack of trade protections) have reigned supreme as of late - and even if they haven't, we (Pens) need to based on several troubled seasons. We need to have flexibility to move guys/acquire help until we get it right.

We haven't been in on big time players because we spend pointless money on guys that only fill jerseys and don't do anything of actual measurable value to the team. This guy plays minutes...great? This guy produces 35 points...great?

This Summer we have 20 million. If all that gets us is a new goalie and the same crappy forward group back we are out to lunch. We, for the first time in some time, have the true ability to absorb an impact player without requiring retention which immediately places us as an attractive trade partner.

Was a Leafs fan that said Jake+14th OA and I think something else? for Marner. I think that's what he was referring to.

Precisely. Goals + cap space (to further improve the roster) + pick going back. Nobody is beating that. The playoff narrative even fits as Jake has been a great playoff guy.

With regard to Karlsson - most teams inquiring are asking for major cap retention. We can beat that by offering NO retention. If we can't promise production in the bottom 6 we can improve our offense from the blueline. Instead of 20-25 minutes of Letang you get 50 minutes a night of offense from the blueline.

 

[66-30-33]

Yes, I know. That's what I'm trying to say - and have said for years on this board but there's some sort of shared thinking here (and in our front office) that you HAVE to max your cap no matter what.

The teams with the most roster flexibility (cap, and lack of trade protections) have reigned supreme as of late - and even if they haven't, we (Pens) need to based on several troubled seasons. We need to have flexibility to move guys/acquire help until we get it right.

We haven't been in on big time players because we spend pointless money on guys that only fill jerseys and don't do anything of actual measurable value to the team. This guy plays minutes...great? This guy produces 35 points...great?

This Summer we have 20 million. If all that gets us is a new goalie and the same crappy forward group back we are out to lunch. We, for the first time in some time, have the true ability to absorb an impact player without requiring retention which immediately places us as an attractive trade partner.




Precisely. Goals + cap space (to further improve the roster) + pick going back. Nobody is beating that. The playoff narrative even fits as Jake has been a great playoff guy.

With regard to Karlsson - most teams inquiring are asking for major cap retention. We can beat that by offering NO retention. If we can't promise production in the bottom 6 we can improve our offense from the blueline. Instead of 20-25 minutes of Letang you get 50 minutes a night of offense from the blueline.

I don't trust Sully enough to use Karlsson properly, as in the top PP guy over Letang.