Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Empoleon8771]

I agree with you on Poehling and I think they need to bring in better players. I just want them bringing in players under 35 preferably under 30 lol

I think you ideally push Poehling out of the lineup and he's your extra C. I think the only real think Poehling offers is position flexibility with being able to play both center and wing. I just don't see any sort of other skills from him. He's just there like Sheahan.

I'm not ready to make that determination after seeing just 10 games of this version of him at the NHL level. I'd like to see more.

It's not just 10 games, though. It's his entire skillset plus his past experience.

I think calling him a skill guy that isn't good enough to be a top-6 forward in the NHL is pretty accurate. I think it's a safe bet to say that a majority of those guys like that end up AHL top-6 guys rather than NHLers.

Cap strapped teams have success by giving defined roles to players on the cheap and hoping they can achieve. What about Mike Sullivan’s usage of his bottom six makes you think Nylander will overachieve?

Yeah this is what it comes down to with Nylander for me. His skillset is that of a top-6 guy but he's not good enough to be a top-6 guy. He either needs to completely redefine his game into something that fits into a bottom-6 role, or he'll be nothing more than an AHL scorer or heading to Europe.

 

[Gurglesons]

He has the same exact issue as Puustinen, he's an offensive player on a team that needs defensive bottom-6 players under Sullivan. He has done quite well in the AHL as a scoring top-6 forward, which is realistically what he is: an AHL top-6 scorer.



I don't see anything that either of those guys do that make me think they'll be anything more than waiver bait within 2-3 years. Blueger and Rust are an exception to the rule, not the rule. For every 1 guy you have like Rust, you have 10 guys like Wilson, Kuhnhackl and Lafferty.

I think that the argument of upside regarding O'Connor/Poehling vs Bonino is fair, but that argument just leads me to the conclusion of "don't do either, go look for someone else". If it's a question of outperforming their contracts, I'd sooner go sign someone like Comtois from Anaheim and pray he can get back to at least close to what he was in the past.

O'Connor is intriguing to me, but I personally see nothing in Poehling at this point. If he was 5'11" instead of 6'2", I don't even think Hextall would have traded for him.

Let’s be honest tho Empo. You thought Granlund could have a Kessel like impact in our bottom six because a few good games last year, so we are gonna take your player evaluation with a grain of salt.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let’s be honest tho Empo. You thought Granlund could have a Kessel like impact in our bottom six because a few good games last year, so we are gonna take your player evaluation with a grain of salt.

I literally never said that

I said that an O'Connor-Granlund-Rakell line had a similar makeup to HBK, in that it's the speedy LWer, cerebral C and the offensive line driving RW. That's the absolute closest I ever came to putting Granlund and Kessel in the same breath.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Who is ripping DOC here? I just don't think he's anything special. I like him more than Poehling but I don't think he's anything more than like a Lafferty caliber depth guy.

Am I like coming off way differently than I think I'm coming off in here?

Honestly I wasn't even referring to you, really.

I just notice a lot of hand-wringing in general when it's suggested that a guy like DOC could probably work the 3rd and 4th line most of the year without too many issues. People start reflexively getting all itchy and start mentally spending big chunks of the team's money on bottom six players.

 

[Pancakes]

Cap strapped teams have success by giving defined roles to players on the cheap and hoping they can achieve. What about Mike Sullivan’s usage of his bottom six makes you think Nylander will overachieve?

I don't think he has to overachieve. He just has to play the type of solid steady game he brought in his tiny sample size here.

I think if he brought a similar level of play as he brought over those 10 games for a full season that he'd pop 10-15 goals and be a reliable two-way player.

Again, maybe he can't do that. But I wouldn't mind finding out versus throwing money at someone else. It's a worthy gamble that could spare us the dollars to be more serious about upgrades elsewhere. A good free agent option is gonna run you 2-3 million unless you go dumpster diving for the next Danton Heinen and that type of player is going to have the same odds of succeeding as Nylander and probably be older.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Nylander has been playing in the NHL in some capacity since he was like 20. I'm very confident in saying he's not a NHL regular caliber player, regardless of what he showed in a less than 10 game sample size last year.

Puustinen is probably a NHL caliber player but he'll never fit in here as long as Sullivan is the coach. He doesn't fit Sullivan's idea for a bottom-6 at all, which is probably a major reason why he hasn't gotten an extended look in the NHL yet.

His 5v5 career points rate per minutes mirrors Rakell's and Zucker's.
His defense and possession play is vastly improved. We should give him a chance.

Sullivan had very kind things to say about his 2-way work, so I'm hopeful he'll get his chance in the top 6 during injuries.

It's Puustinen I have less hope for getting a chance. He hasn't cleared the first checkpoint with Sullivan, and I don't even know if he's at the front of the line for WBS'ers.
Maybe Dubas can get him to see reason.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Honestly I wasn't even referring to you, really.

I just notice a lot of hand-wringing in general when it's suggested that a guy like DOC could probably work the 3rd and 4th line most of the year without too many issues. People start reflexively getting all itchy and start mentally spending big chunks of the team's money on bottom six players.

Honestly I think a part of it is that the Penguins missed the playoffs last year in large part due to how bad their bottom-6 was, so there is a strong feeling of hesitance with going with unproven solutions.

I'd rather play O'Connor than anyone else in their bottom-6 right now, but I would also prefer O'Connor to not be anything more than their 4LW. Like I said earlier today, my ideal bottom-6 right now is something like:

Frederic-Rodrigues-Brown
O'Connor-Kampf-Fischer

His 5v5 career points rate per minutes mirrors Rakell's and Zucker's.
His defense and possession play is vastly improved. We should give him a chance.

Sullivan had very kind things to say about his 2-way work, so I'm hopeful he'll get his chance in the top 6 during injuries.

It's Puustinen I have less hope for getting a chance. He hasn't cleared the first checkpoint with Sullivan, and I don't even know if he's at the front of the line for WBS'ers.
Maybe Dubas can get him to see reason.

I have no doubt that Nylander is a skilled offensive player, but whether he can cut it in the NHL depends entirely on how he does defensively. It's something that guys like Heinen and Sheary did a great job with, they went from offense-only guys to being at least viable in a defensive bottom-6 role.

I'm still very much "I'll believe it when I see it" with Nylander. I am very skeptical he'll either be productive enough or good enough defensively in the kind of bottom-6 role he'd be in with the Penguins.

 

[Pancakes]

His 5v5 career points rate per minutes mirrors Rakell's and Zucker's.
His defense and possession play is vastly improved. We should give him a chance.

Sullivan had very kind things to say about his 2-way work, so I'm hopeful he'll get his chance in the top 6 during injuries.

It's Puustinen I have less hope for getting a chance. He hasn't cleared the first checkpoint with Sullivan, and I don't even know if he's at the front of the line for WBS'ers.
Maybe Dubas can get him to see reason.

The fact that Nylander was brought back at all suggests he has Sullivan's seal of approval (for whatever that's worth).

He was signed when we had no GM and given a one way contract. I don't think the Pens do that if they aren't confident in him at least being solid depth as a 13th/14th forward.

 

[Gurglesons]

The fact that Nylander was brought back at all suggests he has Sullivan's seal of approval (for whatever that's worth).

He was signed when we had no GM and given a one way contract. I don't think the Pens do that if they aren't confident in him at least being solid depth as a 13th/14th forward.

I’m not sure this is the positive you think it is.

 

[Peat]

DOC is a big time breakout candidate for the Pens this year. He has all the tools to become a quality NHL player, and he has the AHL track record of success to back up that he might become something as well. Also showed flashes at the world championships of very strong play. Other AAAA guys have done that in the past, granted, but I really think DOC could blossom into something if the Pens give him a chance.

I'm feeling mildly bullish on DOC. Last off-season, I thought he wasn't coming along well enough, and was all tools no impact. He showed impact.

If we got a a player from another team who was ppg in the AHL, had two seasons of useful bottom six NHL production (albeit in limited minutes), and was a grade A athlete who was willing to use it, we'd be moderately excited. I don't see any reason not to be just because he's one of ours.

Perhaps, but when you're a cap strapped team with almost no prospects to speak of you can't afford not to give a chance to the few guys you have who show flashes of being something more than an AHL player.

Maybe Nylander is a nothing player, but for how cheap he signed for it'd be a mistake not to find out for certain. Like I said, there's only so many cap dollars to address all the other holes we need to plug. If Nylander can be a cheap effective option...it's worth finding out imo.

Aye, just... well, I hope things fall that we can plug that hole another way, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a trade add-on. He's not an awesome one, but you can maybe persuade a team with difficulties recruiting they want him rather than another late pick.

Ya but Nylander is like 750k vs 5 mil. You need that depth. But you need that cap to fill in the roster above him. This team doesnt need a 13th forward vet. This team needs top 12 talent and to let the young players be the depth. You can get vet depth at the deadline

He is cheaper, but if he doesn't work, he doesn't work. But I guess we'll see.

I don't see anything that either of those guys do that make me think they'll be anything more than waiver bait within 2-3 years. Blueger and Rust are an exception to the rule, not the rule. For every 1 guy you have like Rust, you have 10 guys like Wilson, Kuhnhackl and Lafferty.

I think that the argument of upside regarding O'Connor/Poehling vs Bonino is fair, but that argument just leads me to the conclusion of "don't do either, go look for someone else". If it's a question of outperforming their contracts, I'd sooner go sign someone like Comtois from Anaheim and pray he can get back to at least close to what he was in the past.

O'Connor is intriguing to me, but I personally see nothing in Poehling at this point. If he was 5'11" instead of 6'2", I don't even think Hextall would have traded for him.

If you can get enough Comtois at the right price you don't need to, great. Me, I'd be surprised.

Also re Poehling, I thought he showed a real deft passing touch at times. He's willing to go the tough areas. I'm low on his IQ but the tools are there and to a certain extent, manic energy can substitute for IQ on an athlete like him.

Also 20/20 hindsight but right now it looks like we gave up on Lafferty too early.

 

[Turin]

Since Dubas loves his guys


Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell
Bunting (4.9)-Malkin-Rust
O’Connor-Rodrigues (3.3)-Kerfoot (3.4)
Poehling-Kampf (2.3)-Hathaway (2.2)

Same defense - Dumo + Smith

1st for Hellebuyck

Idk not sure I love it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The fact that Nylander was brought back at all suggests he has Sullivan's seal of approval (for whatever that's worth).

He was signed when we had no GM and given a one way contract. I don't think the Pens do that if they aren't confident in him at least being solid depth as a 13th/14th forward.

I'm fine with him as a 13th/14th F but that's much more "he'll step into the top-6 when there's an injury to one of their top-6 wingers" than anything else.

Now if Sullivan didn't insist the 3rd line would be used like an ultra defensive line, I could see me being happy with him on the 3rd line. With my ideal bottom-6 I just posted, I think you could sub in Nylander for Brown and bump Brown to the top-6 with an injury and generally be fine. Or at least you should be able to if you use them right.

If you can get enough Comtois at the right price you don't need to, great. Me, I'd be surprised.

Also re Poehling, I thought he showed a real deft passing touch at times. He's willing to go the tough areas. I'm low on his IQ but the tools are there and to a certain extent, manic energy can substitute for IQ on an athlete like him.

Also 20/20 hindsight but right now it looks like we gave up on Lafferty too early.

I have a hunch that Comtois doesn't even get qualified by Anaheim because of how much he has struggled in the last 2 years. He'd be a guy I'd even be willing to gamble on the 3rd line entering next year. He's been really bad in the last 2 years, but he was so good in 2020-2021 that I wouldn't be able to pass up the gamble.

A part of that was definitely Eakins and he has been fired, so maybe they give him a new chance with a new coach. But the upside with him is so intriguing that he'd be one of my top options to fill out the bottom-6.

 

[Pancakes]

I’m not sure this is the positive you think it is.

That's why I said for whatever that's worth. I know most here are not confident in Sullivan's player evaluation or usage or....anything .

But it is an interesting commentary on what their plans are for him. It would have been easy to let him walk.

Dubas didn't sign him though and Dubas has a ton of power so Nylander may yet not figure into anything for this team. But Sullivan must at least like him or they would not have given him a one way contract.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't hate Nylander or anything... any player under like 100 or whatever is a bonus on this hoary old collection of bonebags. But I dunno how confident it makes me that they identified THAT guy as a valuable depth piece. Or worse a top six piece (though he is at least as good as the burned out husk of Bryan Rust).

My hope is that this team understands that if they are going to insist on running a bunch of soft lazy midgets in their top six that they at least come to the now and realize that they need to make their third line heavy/mean and able to wear the other team down or at least get in their way. Particularly considering how they are deployed. Dunno how Nylander fits there. Though again I'm not UNhappy they brought him back... at least as insurance.

I'm kinda going round in circles on what I believe is a bit of a tertiary issue, anyway. Were it me... priorities would be goaltending (ugh), LD and figuring what to do with Zucker's vacant spot. Then do what you can re: depth.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

What a perfect way to encapsulate just how bleak the prospect situation is and has been for a long time with this team than to spend dozens of posts discussing the merits of guys like DOC, Poulin, and Nylander.

 

[Gurglesons]

What a perfect way to encapsulate just how bleak the prospect situation is and has been for a long time with this team than to spend dozens of posts discussing the merits of guys like DOC, Poulin, and Nylander.

I mean DOC has had success internationally this year and looked great last year.

Poulin played 3 games and has had massive mental health issues.

Nylander sucked on Buffalo and Chicago, but because of 12 good games he has hope or something because of per 60.

 

[Pancakes]

Nylander is the same age as DOC btw

 

[Pancakes]

What a perfect way to encapsulate just how bleak the prospect situation is and has been for a long time with this team than to spend dozens of posts discussing the merits of guys like DOC, Poulin, and Nylander.

Listen, I'm not gonna sit here thinking about how Crosby is 36 and I'm also in my late 30s and we're all closer to death than life and the Penguins era of competing is near to a close (if not already closed) and Dubas has the impossible ask of trying to get an aging roster to contend now while also building up our prospect pool.

I am instead going to try to be the slightest bit hopeful that we might see something else good happen with our few players on the right side of 30 and that Kyle the boy wonder will bring us back from the dead and that Mike Sullivan will get his head out of his own ass.

Hope is more fun than dread

 

[Gurglesons]

Listen, I'm not gonna sit here thinking about how Crosby is 36 and I'm also in my late 30s and we're all closer to death than life and the Penguins era of competing is near to a close (if not already closed) and Dubas has the impossible ask of trying to get an aging roster to contend now while also building up our prospect pool.

I am instead going to try to be the slightest bit hopeful that we might see something else good happen with our few players on the right side of 30 and that Kyle the boy wonder will bring us back from the dead and that Mike Sullivan will get his head out of his own ass.

Hope is more fun than dread

Yeah but how will you be right on a message board if you take this approach.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Listen, I'm not gonna sit here thinking about how Crosby is 36 and I'm also in my late 30s and we're all closer to death than life and the Penguins era of competing is near to a close (if not already closed) and Dubas has the impossible ask of trying to get an aging roster to contend now while also building up our prospect pool.

I am instead going to try to be the slightest bit hopeful that we might see something else good happen with our few players on the right side of 30 and that Kyle the boy wonder will bring us back from the dead and that Mike Sullivan will get his head out of his own ass.

Hope is more fun than dread

The prospect pool sucks due in large part to the team being successful and shipping out those picks and prospects, in a win-now mode. It is what it is. /shrug

Nobody's dreading anything. It's the way it goes; team was *wildly* successful for near on 20 years, but the end comes eventually. This is the end. Who cares?

Still, you gotta admit it's a little bit funny that we're all so bored that we're spending time on guys who are C-tier prospects at best, in a 4C role of all things.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Listen, I'm not gonna sit here thinking about how Crosby is 36 and I'm also in my late 30s and we're all closer to death than life and the Penguins era of competing is near to a close (if not already closed) and Dubas has the impossible ask of trying to get an aging roster to contend now while also building up our prospect pool.

I am instead going to try to be the slightest bit hopeful that we might see something else good happen with our few players on the right side of 30 and that Kyle the boy wonder will bring us back from the dead and that Mike Sullivan will get his head out of his own ass.

Hope is more fun than dread

I mean it's not like things can't at least be sorta fun.

The mid to late 90s Penguins were bereft of any real Cup hopes. But they were FUN.

(In a frustrating and half-hopeless kinda way but still)

 

[Deport Ogie]

Let's not sit here and act like we didn't all (the ones of us that are old enough anyway) hold some sort of perverse pride in watching the sucktacular X Generation Pens absolutely just shit-walk their way through some 25 win seasons.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Everybody acts like the late 90s and early 2000s were this torturous, agonizing time or something. It's just hockey, man. There was still fun to be had in the XGen years, and there'll be fun to be had in the post-Sid/Geno years. We talked about how dorky and shit those times were a few weeks ago with the video of Colby and Endicott's shitty little apartment etc.

Shit, watching this team crash and burn in chaotic fashion at times throughout this past season was hilarious and fun in its own way. Again, it's hockey. Don't take this shit too seriously, cuz none of it f***ing matters.

 

[Gurglesons]

Everybody acts like the late 90s and early 2000s were this torturous, agonizing time or something. It's just hockey, man. There was still fun to be had in the XGen years, and there'll be fun to be had in the post-Sid/Geno years. We talked about how dorky and shit those times were a few weeks ago with the video of Colby and Endicott's shitty little apartment etc.

Shit, watching this team crash and burn in chaotic fashion at times throughout this past season was hilarious and fun in its own way. Again, it's hockey. Don't take this shit too seriously, cuz none of it f***ing matters.

Hm. I was there. It was awful.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Let's not sit here and act like we didn't all (the ones of us that are old enough anyway) hold some sort of perverse pride in watching the sucktacular X Generation Pens absolutely just shit-walk their way through some 25 win seasons.

I'm a fan of gallows humor so yes it was fun. Or at least funny.

Anyone who wants to go sprinting headlong into being a comedic doormat of a team for a half decade maybe took the wrong lessons from those years, though.