Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Jacob]

I don’t trust Sullivan, or any coach, to play a young player over Bonino. Too tempting.

And he looked fine before he got hurt and had a good WC. But we don’t need him.

 

[IcedCapp]

Unless this trade tracker site I'm looking at is off we haven't made a trade with the Bruins since 2006 lol. And it was for Wade Brookbank.

I certainly can't remember any trades with them in recent memory unless I'm blanking.

Doesn't mean we can't make deals with them but it sure hasn't happened much.

We traded Boston DEEZ NUTS in 2013 for iginla.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So. They are moving their LD to make serious money and then moving out even more players to make even more cap space?

I don't see why if they are moving out Gryz and getting out of Reilly they are moving Ullmark out on top of that.

And even if they move out Gryz and Reilly they still have Lindholm, Forbort, and Zboril.

Yes?

They have like $5 million in cap space right now while needing to fill out basically half of their forward group. They're losing their 1C in Bergeron and potentially their 2C in Krejci this off-season. They're going to have to perform major surgery on their roster.

Because he doesn't think he'll be in the press box. C'mon now Empo. That's right there.

That standard can be applied to literally any veteran, though. Should the Penguins just not bring in a good option for an extra forward because people here think Sullivan will play them over the young guys?

Bonino is a lot like Ruh. In that we can all sit here and talk in serious-faced, rational tones about how harmless and in fact good it is to have a vet you can keep on the bench but still be good enough to do spot duty when called.

...only to be bitterly complaining a year from now because they "somehow" managed to play 70some miserable games with the team. Sometimes even impactful minutes.

Sullivan has never scratched a better young player for Ruhwedel, though. People just make Ruhwedel to be this boogyman because Sullivan didn't play scrubs like Riikola over him. Ruhwedel plays a lot of games because the Penguins defensemen always get hurt.

Any complaint about re-signing someone like Bonino just falls flat to me because the Penguins don't have any good young players he'd be blocking. Oh no, the Penguins may healthy scratch "17 points in 78 career games" O'Connor! The horror!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm sorry we aren't wild about your Nick Bonino idea, buddy.

You have lots of other good ideas!

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm sorry we aren't wild about your Nick Bonino idea, buddy.

You have lots of other good ideas!

Like I said, the complaints of "he will play Bonino over Poehling or O'Connor" just fall flat to me because neither Poehling or O'Connor are good

I don't care if people agree or disagree with my ideas, I was just commenting that the argument made just doesn't hold any weight to me. The Penguins don't have any good young forwards to block because their young forward suck.

I feel like O'Connor and Poehling would be indistinguishable from someone like Lafferty or Wilson if the Penguins actually had some young talent now that they had when Lafferty or Wilson were here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Poehling DOC etc. are likely not much.

But pushin' 40 Nick Bonino is pushin' 40 Nick Bonino. That's really all.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think there's a notable difference between who Poehling and DOC are, and who Bonino is, at this stage of all of their careers. I just think Bonino's going to get worse as the season drags on, and over time in general. I don't think Poehling or DOC are going to get much better than we've seen, if at all, but there's a chance there. Bonino is what he is, especially now that he's 35.

In the end, I don't think it really matters one way or another as far as the big picture goes. All three are capable enough 4Cs because I don't think it takes any kind of significant player to play 4C. Blueger held the role for years and the dude's just as much of a nobody as any of the aforementioned.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think there's a notable difference between who Poehling and DOC are, and who Bonino is, at this stage of all of their careers. I just think Bonino's going to get worse as the season drags on, and over time in general. I don't think Poehling or DOC are going to get much better than we've seen, if at all, but there's a chance there. Bonino is what he is, especially now that he's 35.

In the end, I don't think it really matters one way or another as far as the big picture goes. All three are capable enough 4Cs because I don't think it takes any kind of significant player to play 4C. Blueger held the role for years and the dude's just as much of a nobody as any of the aforementioned.

I feel like this is superbly disingenuous regarding Blueger. He struggled this year but he was a legitimately strong 4C before this year. It would be a massive success if Poehling or O'Connor ended up being as good as Blueger.

The difference between guys like Blueger and guys like O'Connor and Poehling can best be summed up based on career earnings. Blueger's likely going to finish in the $8 million to $10 million range in career earnings if I had to guess, since he's at $5.9 million (just using NHL dollars for simplicity) right now. I'd be mildly surprised if either O'Connor or Poehling hit even half of that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I feel like this is superbly disingenuous regarding Blueger. He struggled this year but he was a legitimately strong 4C before this year. It would be a massive success if Poehling or O'Connor ended up being as good as Blueger.

The difference between guys like Blueger and guys like O'Connor and Poehling can best be summed up based on career earnings. Blueger's likely going to finish in the $8 million to $10 million range in career earnings if I had to guess, since he's at $5.9 million (just using NHL dollars for simplicity) right now. I'd be mildly surprised if either O'Connor or Poehling hit even half of that.

Maybe I'm way off but I don't really give a shit about who plays 4C because it's the 4C spot. As long as you're not playing somebody who is an absolute liability out there, it doesn't take much to fill the role adequately.

Any one of DOC, Poehling or Bonino could probably fill the 4C role fine. I just think at Bonino's age and with how many miles are on his body (blocking shots, etc) he's more likely to wear down and become that liability as the season wears on. Especially with how Sullivan's gonna utilize him with heavy PK and d-zone minutes all year. /shrug

I don't really give a shit about any of the three of them. Just preference. It's the 4C spot, it should be like 7th on the list of things people are talking about heading into the draft, camp, and pre-season.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't care if people agree or disagree with my ideas, I was just commenting that the argument made just doesn't hold any weight to me. The Penguins don't have any good young forwards to block because their young forward suck.

Nylander and Puustinen deserve a chance to show whether they do, in fact, suck.

I've been pretty happy with both at the NHL level so far.

 

[Darren McCord]

That standard can be applied to literally any veteran, though. Should the Penguins just not bring in a good option for an extra forward because people here think Sullivan will play them over the young guys?

You can bring in a vet who isnt 35 thou and a recycle buddy. Bonino has no hunger. Give me a guy who wants to win or is younger.

Janmark 30
Haula 32
Acciari 32
Girgenson 29
Sundqvist 29
Kampf 28
Motte 28
Donato 27

Sure some of them may cost between 1-2 but give me that over retreads.

DOC and Poehling have had similar point production to Rust without any actually chance. Not saying they will pop off but still better to have an unknown than an old guy an injury away from retirement

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Maybe I'm way off but I don't really give a shit about who plays 4C because it's the 4C spot. As long as you're not playing somebody who is an absolute liability out there, it doesn't take much to fill the role adequately.

Any one of DOC, Poehling or Bonino could probably fill the 4C role fine. I just think at Bonino's age and with how many miles are on his body (blocking shots, etc) he's more likely to wear down and become that liability as the season wears on. Especially with how Sullivan's gonna utilize him with heavy PK and d-zone minutes all year. /shrug

I don't really give a shit about any of the three of them. Just preference. It's the 4C spot, it should be like 7th on the list of things people are talking about heading into the draft, camp, and pre-season.

The issue is that they need to play 3C a lot, since the C's ahead of them are Penguins, and Penguins go on LTIR.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nylander and Puustinen deserve a chance to show whether they do, in fact, suck.

I've been pretty happy with both at the NHL level so far.

Nylander has been playing in the NHL in some capacity since he was like 20. I'm very confident in saying he's not a NHL regular caliber player, regardless of what he showed in a less than 10 game sample size last year.

Puustinen is probably a NHL caliber player but he'll never fit in here as long as Sullivan is the coach. He doesn't fit Sullivan's idea for a bottom-6 at all, which is probably a major reason why he hasn't gotten an extended look in the NHL yet.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The issue is that they need to play 3C a lot, since the C's ahead of them are Penguins, and Penguins go on LTIR.

Shit, maybe even 2C with how often Sid and Geno go down with injury themselves.

But that's not something this team has the luxury of planning for with their current roster situation.

 

[Pancakes]

Nylander has been playing in the NHL in some capacity since he was like 20. I'm very confident in saying he's not a NHL regular caliber player, regardless of what he showed in a less than 10 game sample size last year.

Puustinen is probably a NHL caliber player but he'll never fit in here as long as Sullivan is the coach. He doesn't fit Sullivan's idea for a bottom-6 at all, which is probably a major reason why he hasn't gotten an extended look in the NHL yet.

Nylander has done quite well at the AHL level and did well in a small sample size for the Pens at the NHL level. He's worth getting more of a look.

He wouldn't be the first player to break out in the NHL after years of toiling in the minors.

Giving the DOCs and Nylanders a shot is how you save money to upgrade elsewhere.

 

[Peat]

That standard can be applied to literally any veteran, though. Should the Penguins just not bring in a good option for an extra forward because people here think Sullivan will play them over the young guys?

Well the point was that was what the argument being made was, not whether I agreed with it, but since you've said it -

I'm down with that.

This team needs some guys to outproduce their contracts big time. It won't happen with the veterans. Maybe the kids are crap, but they're still a better shot than guys like Bonino. If people believe in Bonino as a cheap veteran bottom six presence that can elevate cheap young guys around him, I'm listening (shame Carter has that tied up at not so cheap). But as a 13th forward?

Nope.

This team is no longer in that space. This team is no longer in the place where a couple of canny depth adds gives them a chance if they stop being unlucky. This team needs major surgery and it needs some big punts in the hope they pay off.

Tbh, I don't look at DOC and Poehling and see guys substantially less likely to become meaningful players than Blueger or Rust at the same stage. They're better athletes, decently productive, and display good traits. They just need to bring it together. Yeah, not many guys become Rust from his starting position... but it's a better shot than Bonino. Bonino will probably be a better player next season than one of them, but there's no chance he becomes a major contributor. I'll take the low chance DOC or Poehling or some unsigned RFA does instead.

 

[Peat]

Nylander has done quite well at the AHL level and did well in a small sample size for the Pens at the NHL level. He's worth getting more of a look.

He wouldn't be the first player to break out in the NHL after years of toiling in the minors.

Giving the DOCs and Nylanders a shot is how you save money to upgrade elsewhere.

While I have just made a post arguing for this in general, I can't help but see, well, a current version of Granlund when I look at Nylander (which admittedly isn't very often). Skilled. Smart. Not a coward or anything. But not skilled and smart enough to drive a line with the puck on his stick, not gritty and athletic enough to drive a line without the puck. Just a pure complimentary player who doesn't seem to fit any particular style. He's a shotgun player for skilled players that isn't good enough at it to stick with a good team.

See also Danton Heinen.

As such... *le shrugs*

 

[Pancakes]

Tbh, I don't look at DOC and Poehling and see guys substantially less likely to become meaningful players than Blueger or Rust at the same stage. They're better athletes, decently productive, and display good traits. They just need to bring it together. Yeah, not many guys become Rust from his starting position... but it's a better shot than Bonino. Bonino will probably be a better player next season than one of them, but there's no chance he becomes a major contributor. I'll take the low chance DOC or Poehling or some unsigned RFA does instead.

DOC is a big time breakout candidate for the Pens this year. He has all the tools to become a quality NHL player, and he has the AHL track record of success to back up that he might become something as well. Also showed flashes at the world championships of very strong play. Other AAAA guys have done that in the past, granted, but I really think DOC could blossom into something if the Pens give him a chance.

While I have just made a post arguing for this in general, I can't help but see, well, a current version of Granlund when I look at Nylander (which admittedly isn't very often). Skilled. Smart. Not a coward or anything. But not skilled and smart enough to drive a line with the puck on his stick, not gritty and athletic enough to drive a line without the puck. Just a pure complimentary player who doesn't seem to fit any particular style. He's a shotgun player for skilled players that isn't good enough at it to stick with a good team.

See also Danton Heinen.

As such... *le shrugs*

Perhaps, but when you're a cap strapped team with almost no prospects to speak of you can't afford not to give a chance to the few guys you have who show flashes of being something more than an AHL player.

Maybe Nylander is a nothing player, but for how cheap he signed for it'd be a mistake not to find out for certain. Like I said, there's only so many cap dollars to address all the other holes we need to plug. If Nylander can be a cheap effective option...it's worth finding out imo.

 

[Darren McCord]

While I have just made a post arguing for this in general, I can't help but see, well, a current version of Granlund when I look at Nylander (which admittedly isn't very often). Skilled. Smart. Not a coward or anything. But not skilled and smart enough to drive a line with the puck on his stick, not gritty and athletic enough to drive a line without the puck. Just a pure complimentary player who doesn't seem to fit any particular style. He's a shotgun player for skilled players that isn't good enough at it to stick with a good team.

See also Danton Heinen.

As such... *le shrugs*

Ya but Nylander is like 750k vs 5 mil. You need that depth. But you need that cap to fill in the roster above him. This team doesnt need a 13th forward vet. This team needs top 12 talent and to let the young players be the depth. You can get vet depth at the deadline

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nylander has done quite well at the AHL level and did well in a small sample size for the Pens at the NHL level. He's worth getting more of a look.

He wouldn't be the first player to break out in the NHL after years of toiling in the minors.

Giving the DOCs and Nylanders a shot is how you save money to upgrade elsewhere.

He has the same exact issue as Puustinen, he's an offensive player on a team that needs defensive bottom-6 players under Sullivan. He has done quite well in the AHL as a scoring top-6 forward, which is realistically what he is: an AHL top-6 scorer.

Well the point was that was what the argument being made was, not whether I agreed with it, but since you've said it -

I'm down with that.

This team needs some guys to outproduce their contracts big time. It won't happen with the veterans. Maybe the kids are crap, but they're still a better shot than guys like Bonino. If people believe in Bonino as a cheap veteran bottom six presence that can elevate cheap young guys around him, I'm listening (shame Carter has that tied up at not so cheap). But as a 13th forward?

Nope.

This team is no longer in that space. This team is no longer in the place where a couple of canny depth adds gives them a chance if they stop being unlucky. This team needs major surgery and it needs some big punts in the hope they pay off.

Tbh, I don't look at DOC and Poehling and see guys substantially less likely to become meaningful players than Blueger or Rust at the same stage. They're better athletes, decently productive, and display good traits. They just need to bring it together. Yeah, not many guys become Rust from his starting position... but it's a better shot than Bonino. Bonino will probably be a better player next season than one of them, but there's no chance he becomes a major contributor. I'll take the low chance DOC or Poehling or some unsigned RFA does instead.

I don't see anything that either of those guys do that make me think they'll be anything more than waiver bait within 2-3 years. Blueger and Rust are an exception to the rule, not the rule. For every 1 guy you have like Rust, you have 10 guys like Wilson, Kuhnhackl and Lafferty.

I think that the argument of upside regarding O'Connor/Poehling vs Bonino is fair, but that argument just leads me to the conclusion of "don't do either, go look for someone else". If it's a question of outperforming their contracts, I'd sooner go sign someone like Comtois from Anaheim and pray he can get back to at least close to what he was in the past.

O'Connor is intriguing to me, but I personally see nothing in Poehling at this point. If he was 5'11" instead of 6'2", I don't even think Hextall would have traded for him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Why do people rip on DOC so hard, anyway?

I've seen like maybe one or two people make sorta kinda maybe hopeful noises about him possibly playing in the top six in some capacity if all goes well. The majority opinion is that he looks like a guy that can put things together enough to be a good bottom six player. That hardly seems like this crazy, laughable stretch.

Then again Pittsburgh fans are monumentally weird about their precious third and fourth liners.

 

[Darren McCord]

Why do people rip on DOC so hard, anyway?

I've seen like one or two people make sorta kinda maybe hopeful noises about him possibly playing in the top six in some capacity if all goes well. The majority opinion is that he looks like a guy that can put things together enough to be a good bottom six player.

Then again Pittsburgh fans are monumentally weird about their precious third and fourth liners.

Its not a hard on for DOC its just a hard on for people under the age of 30, which is what this team has been allergic too.

I don't see anything that either of those guys do that make me think they'll be anything more than waiver bait within 2-3 years. Blueger and Rust are an exception to the rule, not the rule. For every 1 guy you have like Rust, you have 10 guys like Wilson, Kuhnhackl and Lafferty.

I think that the argument of upside regarding O'Connor/Poehling vs Bonino is fair, but that argument just leads me to the conclusion of "don't do either, go look for someone else". If it's a question of outperforming their contracts, I'd sooner go sign someone like Comtois from Anaheim and pray he can get back to at least close to what he was in the past.

O'Connor is intriguing to me, but I personally see nothing in Poehling at this point. If he was 5'11" instead of 6'2", I don't even think Hextall would have traded for him.

I agree with you on Poehling and I think they need to bring in better players. I just want them bringing in players under 35 preferably under 30 lol

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why do people rip on DOC so hard, anyway?

I've seen like maybe one or two people make sorta kinda maybe hopeful noises about him possibly playing in the top six in some capacity if all goes well. The majority opinion is that he looks like a guy that can put things together enough to be a good bottom six player. That hardly seems like this crazy, laughable stretch.

Then again Pittsburgh fans are monumentally weird about their precious third and fourth liners.

Who is ripping DOC here? I just don't think he's anything special. I like him more than Poehling but I don't think he's anything more than like a Lafferty caliber depth guy.

Am I like coming off way differently than I think I'm coming off in here?

 

[Pancakes]

He has done quite well in the AHL as a scoring top-6 forward, which is realistically what he is: an AHL top-6 scorer.

I'm not ready to make that determination after seeing just 10 games of this version of him at the NHL level. I'd like to see more.

Why do people rip on DOC so hard, anyway?

I've seen like maybe one or two people make sorta kinda maybe hopeful noises about him possibly playing in the top six in some capacity if all goes well. The majority opinion is that he looks like a guy that can put things together enough to be a good bottom six player. That hardly seems like this crazy, laughable stretch.

Then again Pittsburgh fans are monumentally weird about their precious third and fourth liners.

I think I'm the biggest Nylander and DOC stan on the board at the moment lol. I really hope they get a chance to run with it. DOC especially.

 

[Gurglesons]

Perhaps, but when you're a cap strapped team with almost no prospects to speak of you can't afford not to give a chance to the few guys you have who show flashes of being something more than an AHL player.

Maybe Nylander is a nothing player, but for how cheap he signed for it'd be a mistake not to find out for certain. Like I said, there's only so many cap dollars to address all the other holes we need to plug. If Nylander can be a cheap effective option...it's worth finding out imo.

Cap strapped teams have success by giving defined roles to players on the cheap and hoping they can achieve. What about Mike Sullivan’s usage of his bottom six makes you think Nylander will overachieve?