Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Empoleon8771]

He's been used as a two-way center his entire career. I went as far back as moneypuck goes (to 2008-09, when Carter was young and in his offensive prime). He started 16% of his shifts in the d-zone that year, second only to Mike Richards.

He took 3 minutes toi/game on the penalty kill that year which was only slightly less than Mike Richards did.

Carter has been known for his two-way ability his entire career.

It didn't work this year not because he doesn't know how to play that role but because he's old and he can no longer handle that responsibility. Of course he'd do better if you put him in primarily offensive situations, but do you really want Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin absorbing those defensive minutes instead? You're kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't with Carter. It's why we really need to pick up a solid 3c this year so Carter can be relegated to the 4th line and not asked to do as much.

There's a difference between being used as a two-way center versus being used as a pure defensive center. Carter would have been fine in the past in a two-way role that focuses more offensively, that's the kind of role he played in the past. But that's way different than the role Sullivan threw him out in.

There's a big difference between a 2-way top-6 role versus a pure defensive bottom-6 role. Carter was never used in that pure defensive bottom-6 role before coming to Pittsburgh, and he was especially not suited to try out that role in his late 30s. That is entirely on Sullivan.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's been used as a two-way center his entire career. I went as far back as moneypuck goes (to 2008-09, when Carter was young and in his offensive prime). He started 16% of his shifts in the d-zone that year, second only to Mike Richards.

He took 3 minutes toi/game on the penalty kill that year which was only slightly less than Mike Richards did.

Carter has been known for his two-way ability his entire career.

It didn't work this year not because he doesn't know how to play that role but because he's old and he can no longer handle that responsibility. Of course he'd do better if you put him in primarily offensive situations, but do you really want Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin absorbing those defensive minutes instead? You're kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't with Carter. It's why we really need to pick up a solid 3c this year so Carter can be relegated to the 4th line and not asked to do as much.

Which was my entire point. You acquire defensive players then. Not the Brassard, Kapanen, Granlund, Carter types we are obsessed with.

This is why I’m saying our summer should be built around players like Iafallo, Laughton, and Brown. Players that have succeeded in bottom six deployments and scored still.

If this is the system we are going to play, acquire players that excel at defense and add other aspects to their games.

 

[Ryder71]

Which was my entire point. You acquire defensive players then. Not the Brassard, Kapanen, Granlund, Carter types we are obsessed with.

This is why I’m saying our summer should be built around players like Iafallo, Laughton, and Brown. Players that have succeeded in bottom six deployments and scored still.

If this is the system we are going to play, acquire players that excel at defense and add other aspects to their games.

This is a very good post, clearly somebody must have hacked your account. Whoever took over for pixie welcome aboard!

 

[Pancakes]

There's a difference between being used as a two-way center versus being used as a pure defensive center. Carter would have been fine in the past in a two-way role that focuses more offensively, that's the kind of role he played in the past. But that's way different than the role Sullivan threw him out in.

There's a big difference between a 2-way top-6 role versus a pure defensive bottom-6 role. Carter was never used in that pure defensive bottom-6 role before coming to Pittsburgh, and he was especially not suited to try out that role in his late 30s. That is entirely on Sullivan.

Eh, I think any two-way player who kills penalties and is relied on for d-zone starts could handle the role Sullivan asked. The issue is what you brought up in your last point: given his age and declining ability it was too much to ask of him and that finally came to a head this past year.

Which was my entire point. You acquire defensive players then. Not the Brassard, Kapanen, Granlund, Carter types we are obsessed with.

This is why I’m saying our summer should be built around players like Iafallo, Laughton, and Brown. Players that have succeeded in bottom six deployments and scored still.

If this is the system we are going to play, acquire players that excel at defense and add other aspects to their games.

Agreed. Getting some bottom six possession guys with a little bit of scoring touch should be the goal and it sounds like that is the goal based on what Dubas brought up in his press conference.

I don't think it's an impossible ask to find those kinds of players. And we already have a few in house with DOC and Poehling. Possibly Nylander as well.

 

[Gurglesons]

Eh, I think any two-way player who kills penalties and is relied on for d-zone starts could handle the role Sullivan asked. The issue is what you brought up in your last point: given his age and declining ability it was too much to ask of him and that finally came to a head this past year.

Agreed. Getting some bottom six possession guys with a little bit of scoring touch should be the goal and it sounds like that is the goal based on what Dubas brought up in his press conference.

I don't think it's an impossible ask to find those kinds of players. And we already have a few in house with DOC and Poehling. Possibly Nylander as well.

Nylander is the complete opposite of what I’m talking about.

 

[SEALBound]

He is better than Kappy - he also costs double, albeit Kappy was overpaid.

I don't think Hall at 6 is better than Tarasenko at 7 or JT Miller at 8.

I'd say if Hall came in you'd have to have something pre-aligned with Rust going out. Hall did hit lightning in a bottle a while back but his game isn't super dynamic...not from what I've seen. I think he's paid fairly but I'm not sure it's a price tag that does anything for this club.

I think I generally agree with that but you have to figure in, well do we HAVE the extra $2mil for X years for Tarasenko or Miller? Hall provides a good value at $6mil for this year and next. He's also a LW which helps if we don't resign Zucker.

There's a difference between being used as a two-way center versus being used as a pure defensive center. Carter would have been fine in the past in a two-way role that focuses more offensively, that's the kind of role he played in the past. But that's way different than the role Sullivan threw him out in.

There's a big difference between a 2-way top-6 role versus a pure defensive bottom-6 role. Carter was never used in that pure defensive bottom-6 role before coming to Pittsburgh, and he was especially not suited to try out that role in his late 30s. That is entirely on Sullivan.

I'm going to push back a bit on the differences between 2-way and defensive center as it relates to Carter. Not sure who is primary LW was last year - Mcginn/Heinen? but he also had Kapanen and the sad truth was that the line couldn't generate offense and we didn't have the ability to give him anyone better to help. So I don't think Carter was necessarily given "sole defensive roles" as much as it is "well, we don't want to burden Sid or Geno and Jeff is good at faceoffs and can be trusted (meh) in the defensive zone". So perhaps out of necessity and an inability to be a 2-way center.

I don't think it's the "role" and zone-starts that was keeping Jeff Carter from being a "two-way center". I think he had an anemic LW, a depressed Kapanen, and a significant decline in ability due to age.

I mean, let's say you want Carter to focus on offense...in the context of the team last year, how does that even occur? Like what does Sullivan do that is practical that gives Carter more offensive capability? Again, I don't buy for one second that zone-starts is the standalone, analytically/statistically significant answer here.

 

[Pancakes]

Nylander is the complete opposite of what I’m talking about.

He doesn't fit the classic mold but he played well in his brief time in the NHL this past season. I'm not totally ruling him out as a fit in the top 9, and given how cheap he is he may be worth the gamble to save some dollars to allocate elsewhere.

That might be the decision you have to make if you're Dubas is spending more to get two classic bottom six players or getting one exceptional bottom six player and relying on Nylander to fill another hole.

I'm not sure what the answer is and I'm curious to see Dubas' approach.

 

[Gurglesons]

He doesn't fit the classic mold but he played well in his brief time in the NHL this past season. I'm not totally ruling him out as a fit in the top 9, and given how cheap he is he may be worth the gamble to save some dollars to allocate elsewhere.

That might be the decision you have to make if you're Dubas is spending more to get two classic bottom six players or getting one exceptional bottom six player and relying on Nylander to fill another hole.

I'm not sure what the answer is and I'm curious to see Dubas' approach.

No this is the whole issue. We keep trying out Nylanders in bottom six roles because their xGF or some shit is good.

We need Jeannot types. Or at the very least players like DOC and Poehling that bring size.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Until the Penguins get a new coach, the ideal bottom-6 has 2 lines similar to ZAR-Blueger-Tanev on this team. Guys like Nylander and Puustinen just absolutely do not fit how Sullivan is going to use his bottom-6. They're fine to have as extras, but they're not regulars until the Penguins change how they deploy their bottom-6.

Using mostly free agents, my ideal bottom-6 as long as Sullivan is coach is something like:

Frederic-Rodrigues-Brown
O'Connor-Kampf-Fischer

 

[ChaosAgent]

Until the Penguins get a new coach, the ideal bottom-6 has 2 lines similar to ZAR-Blueger-Tanev on this team. Guys like Nylander and Puustinen just absolutely do not fit how Sullivan is going to use his bottom-6. They're fine to have as extras, but they're not regulars until the Penguins change how they deploy their bottom-6.

Using mostly free agents, my ideal bottom-6 as long as Sullivan is coach is something like:

Frederic-Rodrigues-Brown
O'Connor-Kampf-Fischer

Can we afford this? That looks like a $20M bottom 6 before adding in Carter and Granlund's buyout. Can we really not swap out a name for Poehling?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Can we afford this? That looks like a $20M bottom 6 before adding in Carter and Granlund's buyout. Can we really not swap out a name for Poehling?

I don't think they'd be able to afford the entire bottom-6 but they can definitely afford that 3rd line.

More realistically, their bottom-6 would be something like:

Frederic-Kampf-Brown
O'Connor-Poehling-Carter

They can almost assuredly afford this bottom-6 unless they do something stupid.

 

[Peat]

Cos I'm a broken clock, I'll say it again

If you want the bottom six to start outside their zone, build a blue line that doesn't make it a forlorn hope.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Cos I'm a broken clock, I'll say it again

If you want the bottom six to start outside their zone, build a blue line that doesn't make it a forlorn hope.

I definitely agree with this. I think that is why a lot of us want to upgrade on a LD this year.

Some was injuries to top 4 D though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking at that AFP Analytics projection for contracts, the guys I mentioned above have these contract projections:

-Rodrigues: 3 years at $3.7 million
-Brown: 4 years at $3.3 million
-Frederic: 3 years at $2.3 million
-Kampf: 2 years at $1.8 million
-Fischer: 2 years at $1.6 million

I think Frederic gets more than this due to his ultra physicality and size but the rest seem pretty reasonable. Brown likely opts for a shorter term, reclamation project style contract over the longer deal but I think the projection is reasonable.

If you could get Rodrgiues for 3 years at $3.5 million, Frederic for 3 years at $2.5 million and Brown for 1 year at $2.5 million, you have a good amount of cap space to fill out the rest of the roster after trading Granlund and that 3rd line should be really strong.

Cos I'm a broken clock, I'll say it again

If you want the bottom six to start outside their zone, build a blue line that doesn't make it a forlorn hope.

I have major questions about the defense they have now if it's not up to snuff with that.

This team shouldn't have issues moving the puck from their defense with who they have on defense.

 

[TimmyD]

I’d target one big get (Barbashev) and then I’d go after guys like Pius Suter, Oskar Sundqvist, and Connor Brown… maybe try and swing a trade for Ross Colton (this depends on what kind of contract he wants).

 

[Empoleon8771]

It is asininely close (literally $8,158 in cap space), but I was able to make a full roster with these signings:

-Jarry: 3 years at $5 million
-Varlamov: 2 years at $2.5 million
-Bunting: 5 years at $5 million
-Frederic: 3 years at $2.5 million
-Rodrigues: 3 years at $3.5 million
-Brown: 1 year at $2.5 million
-O'Connor: 2 years at $800k
-Poehling: 2 years at $1.2 million
-Bonino: 1 year at $1 million
-Soucy: 3 years at $3 million

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Rust
Frederic-Rodrigues-Brown
O'Connor-Poehling-Carter
Bonino-Nylander

Pettersson-Letang
Soucy-Petry
POJ-Rutta
Ruhwedel

Jarry-Varlamov

This isn't me saying this is what I'd necessarily want to do, but it just shows that you can build a really strong 3rd line while not leaving any other holes on the roster if you're smart with your money in free agency.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I have major questions about the defense they have now if it's not up to snuff with that.

This team shouldn't have issues moving the puck from their defense with who they have on defense.

Yeah, if we have to build an imperfect team (which we do), I am willing to gamble on Petts/POJ at LD. Petts already improved and POJ has shown many flashes of top 4 stuff.

Letang should bounce back. And if he doesn't, we are screwed anyway. There is no alternative to betting big on Letang.

 

[Pancakes]

No this is the whole issue. We keep trying out Nylanders in bottom six roles because their xGF or some shit is good.

We need Jeannot types. Or at the very least players like DOC and Poehling that bring size.

I think it's only an issue if you have too much of one thing. If you need to fit in a Nylander for cap purposes, it works fine. If you have an entire bottom six of Nylanders, that ain't good.

 

[Darren McCord]

It is asininely close (literally $8,158 in cap space), but I was able to make a full roster with these signings:

-Jarry: 3 years at $5 million
-Varlamov: 2 years at $2.5 million
-Bunting: 5 years at $5 million
-Frederic: 3 years at $2.5 million
-Rodrigues: 3 years at $3.5 million
-Brown: 1 year at $2.5 million
-O'Connor: 2 years at $800k
-Poehling: 2 years at $1.2 million
-Bonino: 1 year at $1 million
-Soucy: 3 years at $3 million

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Rust
Frederic-Rodrigues-Brown
O'Connor-Poehling-Carter
Bonino-Nylander

Pettersson-Letang
Soucy-Petry
POJ-Rutta
Ruhwedel

Jarry-Varlamov

This isn't me saying this is what I'd necessarily want to do, but it just shows that you can build a really strong 3rd line while not leaving any other holes on the roster if you're smart with your money in free agency.

I mean I think that's reasonable. Don't want Bonino though. Waste of money. Carter is enough old vet presence.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean I think that's reasonable. Don't want Bonino though. Waste of money. Carter is enough old vet presence.

Bonino is included because the Penguins need an extra C on their roster and Bonino fits how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6. He seems like an ideal guy to re-sign for dirt cheap to sit in the press box.

 

[molon labe]

Ovechkin @ 50%

Be a nice LW upgrade on Zucker. Solve the PP. Add toughness. Break the internet.

Fast track his goal scoring chase with Sid or Geno. How many 1st rounders does that take?

 

[SEALBound]

If we can get ERod back, he'd be a great 3C to pair with Granlund IMHO. ERod is shoot first, ask questions later. Granlund is pass, pass, pass, then pass and pass again.

If you could pair them with Brown or even Frederic, I that would be fine. It would likely mean a DOC-Poehling-Carter 4th line which I'm iffy about I think we can make it work. The real key to the bottom 6 needs to be the ability to change things up on the fly and it's as much on Sullivan as anyone else to do that. You simply cannot keep force-feeding McGinn-Carter-Kapanen, watch it fail over and over again, and then comment to the press that you have no idea what to do.

Say you run:

Frederic-ERod-Granlund
DOC-Poehling-Carter

First, blah. Second, you can switch those lines up a bit to have new combinations if things are going bad:

DOC-ERod-Poehling
Frederic-Granlund-Carter

DOC-Granlund-Frederic
Poehling-Carter-Granlund

Or, you bench Carter and bring Puustinen in to the mix.

Personnel is only ONE part of the issue with the bottom 6.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ovechkin @ 50%

Be a nice LW upgrade on Zucker. Solve the PP. Add toughness. Break the internet.

Fast track his goal scoring chase with Sid or Geno. How many 1st rounders does that take?

You're better than this, my man

 

[molon labe]

You're better than this, my man

It's the Summer. I don't have any Malkin main board threads to turn that kind of energy on.

But in all seirousness - that would be an absolutely hillarious and fun way to spend the twilight years of this groups era. I don't care what it looks like in the playoffs - though I wouldn't bet against it. Rakell - Sid - Ovi would be disgusting.

 

[Gurglesons]

if our bottom six has Rodrigues and Granlund in it, I quit.