Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

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They're trending bad, though. If Dubas made all his decisions entirely based on analytics, then he SHOULD be concerned.

The Pens are 12th in the NHL in xGF% this season overall, but they're 24th in the NHL in that same category over the past 10 games. So they're not even winning the xGF Cup either.

So not only are they not getting the actual results (ie. wins and points), but they're also not even performing well from an analytics standpoint recently.

So where's Sullivan's saving grace now if his team's shit analytically as well as results-wise?
And a GM is going to realize they are missing 4 of their regular forwards, 2 of which are top 6 forwards, for much of that time, too.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. I don't believe in the xG stuff to begin with.
 
Analytics don’t seem to be very good at analyzing or predicting?


I mean I largely agree but I am also just pointing out that a team’s record is also just data and we seem to not care about that one which is pretty hilarious.
oh we don't care about that data point...as long as shots are there...
 
don't you love the narrative around Pens...we could end up dead last in 5 on 5 they still would be talking about great 5 on 5....especially those Corsis for all the 5-foot wide shots from the blue line
But they are 6th in the NHL in actual G% at 5-on-5.

And they are 28GF and 23GA over the last 14 games when the advanced analytics tanked.
 
And a GM is going to realize they are missing 4 of their regular forwards, 2 of which are top 6 forwards, for much of that time, too.

Again, I'm not saying it's right. I don't believe in the xG stuff to begin with.
I'm just saying the org can't even hide behind "the analytics have been good" as an excuse because they haven't been good over the past 10+ games.
 
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They're trending bad, though. If Dubas made all his decisions entirely based on analytics, then he SHOULD be concerned.

The Pens are 12th in the NHL in xGF% this season overall, but they're 24th in the NHL in that same category over the past 10 games. So they're not even winning the xGF Cup either.

So not only are they not getting the actual results (ie. wins and points), but they're also not even performing well from an analytics standpoint recently.

So where's Sullivan's saving grace now if his team's shit analytically as well as results-wise?
I think he sees that, hence all these weird moves that smell exactly for what they are, desperate blender moves in hope that something will stick. Nothing shows taht there is a plan to get out of this, he only has one playbook, one from the training camp, that he thought would work...

But they are 6th in the NHL in actual G% at 5-on-5.

And they are 28GF and 23GA over the last 14 games when the advanced analytics tanked.
whats our record in those last 14 games
 
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Frankly, I don't disagree.

But my initial post was to someone complaining about Dubas not doing anything because they thought he was an analytic focused GM. But being too analytic focused might be part of the problem.
He gave his view on analytics in the summer. He uses them to stay au courant but isn't strongly inclined towards them like a Tulsky or whatever. Sort of a fence sitter when it comes to that. He doesn't really have a mathematics background.
Based on all the interviews of him I've seen, he's much more results focused than process focused.

He's different from Sullivan in that regard. Sullivan believes that if you consistently apply what he deems to be a good process, the positive results will inevitably follow. Dubas gets frustrated and impatient with bad results and acts.
That's why we've seen so much movement this year with call-ups and healthy scratches. That's Dubas intervening, while still respecting Sullivan's wishes to use defensively inclined Forwards in the bottom-six. If we had a different coach, we'd have likely seen Pitlick or more than 1 game of Puustinen by now.
 
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I'm just saying the org can't even hide behind "the analytics have been good" as an excuse because they haven't been good over the past 10+ games.
Right but from Dubas' perspective if he's looking mainly at the analytics, he's going to say "We had great analytics, then we had a bunch of injuries that hurt those analytics, but we're expecting those players to come back so the analytics will come back, too".

And the (flawed, if you ask me) general thought behind the analytics is that over time it will lead to wins.

So it's not hard to see how they are rationalizing this.
 
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He gave his view on analytics in the summer. He uses them to stay au courant but isn't strongly inclined towards them like a Tulsky or whatever. Sort of a fence sitter when it comes to that. He doesn't really have a mathematics background.
Based on all the interviews of him I've seen, he's much more results focused than process focused.

He's different from Sullivan in that regard. Sullivan believes that if you consistently apply what he deems to be a good process, the positive results will inevitably follow. Dubas gets frustrated and impatient with bad results and acts.
That's why we've seen so much movement this year with call-ups and healthy scratches. That's Dubas intervening, while still respecting Sullivan's wishes to use defensively inclined Forwards in the bottom-six. If we had a different coach, we'd have likely seen Pitlick or more than 1 game of Puustinen by now.

The first part of the bolded I believe is absolute. Sullivan has basically repeated himself in the whole 'trust the process' 'bad bounces' blah blah. He's literally watching the Penguins trend straight down for 6 straight years into where we are today - far from even a wildcard spot with pretty much .650 hockey required onward to make the playoffs - and done absolutely nothing beyond shifting 3 guys on 3 lines. No system changes, and more importantly - no changes to the players he even wants on the team. 4 periods of trap hockey don't account for 6 years of carbon copy rosters - which have been an utter mixed bag.

Dubas getting frustrated is what I'm not seeing. Call ups due to injury and the fact that the bottom 6 is utter shit doesn't mean he's getting frustrated. Frustrated is GMJR getting Guds after Wilson murders front office favorite ZAR. Frustrated is GMJR trading for guys then ditching them. It's Sullivan after any single whistle blows against the Pens. It's not Dubas bringing in a handful of guys then vehemently defending them (reminisce of GMJR with Jack Johnson if we're being honest).
 
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Just putting this here bc there’s no GDT yet…

I can’t wait for our team to make him look like a Vezina winner with one goal against him…but maybe Jarry will pitch another shut out lol

“• The Coyotes are scheduled to start goaltender Connor Ingram. In 17 games this season, Ingram has an 11-5-0 record, a 2.52 goals against average, a .920 save percentage and two shutouts.

Ingram, a third-year veteran, has never faced the Penguins in his career.”
 
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Right but from Dubas' perspective if he's looking mainly at the analytics, he's going to say "We had great analytics, then we had a bunch of injuries that hurt those analytics, but we're expecting those players to come back so the analytics will come back, too".

And the (flawed, if you ask me) general thought behind the analytics is that over time it will lead to wins.

So it's not hard to see how they are rationalizing this.

I think this is the correct analysis. The only persons who can look at Penguins hockey over the past 2,000 days and say 'trust the process' - is those who stat watch. But we are 3rd in this and 2nd in that!

It's a fallacy entirely to believe that current results will net a different future outcome. Especially in sports...why they say 'that's why the game is played'.

Remember when the 2017 Capitals were better analytically? Pepperage farm does. It's utter insanity to look at not only THIS product, but the product over the past several seasons and think that bringing in the exact same roster + EK is going to somehow net better future results. The team is older, and we don't even have a plan B that so many of us talked about over the past 3 or 4 years. We used to have a game where Hornqvist would win it - games where our skill would. Right now we have games where we need BOTH Jarry to play well AND Sid/Geno to both produce. It's a stupid game plan. But hell - the stats are there! It'll all come around. Trust the process. ZAR had good analytics too..I remember when they all came around and his shots on net finally went in and he became a 30 goal scorer.....
 
He gave his view on analytics in the summer. He uses them to stay au courant but isn't strongly inclined towards them like a Tulsky or whatever. Sort of a fence sitter when it comes to that. He doesn't really have a mathematics background.
Based on all the interviews of him I've seen, he's much more results focused than process focused.

He's different from Sullivan in that regard. Sullivan believes that if you consistently apply what he deems to be a good process, the positive results will inevitably follow. Dubas gets frustrated and impatient with bad results and acts.
That's why we've seen so much movement this year with call-ups and healthy scratches. That's Dubas intervening, while still respecting Sullivan's wishes to use defensively inclined Forwards in the bottom-six. If we had a different coach, we'd have likely seen Pitlick or more than 1 game of Puustinen by now.
If that's all true, which I'm not saying it isn't, then I don't understand how he thinks cycling through bottom 6 players is having any effect on the thing that is actually hurting this team...the PP.
 
Dubas getting frustrated is what I'm not seeing. Call ups due to injury and the fact that the bottom 6 is utter shit doesn't mean he's getting frustrated. Frustrated is GMJR getting Guds after Wilson murders front office favorite ZAR. Frustrated is GMJR trading for guys then ditching them. It's Sullivan after any single whistle blows against the Pens. It's not Dubas bringing in a handful of guys then vehemently defending them (reminisce of GMJR with Jack Johnson if we're being honest).
There have been many changes made that had nothing to do with injuries:
POJ out for Shea
Carter out for Hinostroza and vice-versa
Ruhwedel out for Ludvig (when Ludvig got concussed)
Harkins out for Zohorna
Nylander out for Puustinen
Zohorna out for Johnstone

This is not Sullivan's way. His way is what happened last year when the GM never intervened. Carter never got HS'd. Blueger and McGinn were untouchable, as were Poehling and Archibald.
Z didn't get a game. Nylander only saw action due to injuries post trade-deadline. Puustinen didn't play once. Caggiula only saw 4 games during injuries, averaging like 7-8 mins.
Chad played so many more games than he deserved. He was dogshit. We had better options.

Those are things Sullivan does if no one steps in.
 
If that's all true, which I'm not saying it isn't, then I don't understand how he thinks cycling through bottom 6 players is having any effect on the thing that is actually hurting this team...the PP.
Well we need to distinguish the cycling that's happening due to injuries and those that are performance-based.
When it comes to the PP, Puustinen is on the first unit tonight, on the left wall. Nylander and Z were both used on PP2 as well.

We also need to factor in that these call-ups aren't necessarily Dubas' first choices. Maybe he'd want a Pitlick, Nylander or a Puustinen up sooner, right?
But Sullivan is adamant on his L1 + L2 = Offense, L3 + L4 = defense thing. So Dubas pushes for change while respecting that framework.
That's not what happened in Toronto though. They called up or brought in offensively inclined Forwards to help the bottom-six score at points.

Sullivan will only call-up guys like Nylander and Puustinen when there's injuries in the top-six.
 
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I'm not advocating for the analytics. It was in response to the post I quoted.

You can't say you thought Dubas was an analytic minded GM and then wonder why he's not doing anything when the analytics are good.
I’m riffing off you, not going for a call out, sorry if it read that way. But it’s wild that the simplest and most important metric in our arsenal is being roundly ignored by the analytics minded FO.
 
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Im really starting to wonder if management and coaching are on the same page or if it’s just pride on Sullivan to think that he can have anyone play into his system.

Those bottom 6 guys were certainly blessed by Sully and he got all his toys. Honestly, he's gotten the results at 5 v 5 play.

It's his absolute refusal to do anything of significance about the PP that's killing this team
 
I don't understand what's happening. The soft forecheck and deep trap wasn't a figment of our imagination. It just seems so extremely circumstantial and only used against specific opponents. I don't think it's what they're being asked to do at this time.

It seems to me like he's throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall in rapid fire to hope something sticks. I never like that approach because if something works, what was it? How do you discern which of the four changes you made was the right one?

I just get the sense there's a lot of scrambling.
That's why I floated the question of "Is the system changing often or are they executing poorly?". Certainly wouldn't be the first time we've seen the lines depart from structured systems on their own, with low accountability being a driver of that behavior. I could see a situation where the coaching staff is having strategy meetings, looking at upcoming opponents, and determining how they will approach the game. The problem is, when you change things up from game to game, the only consistency is inconsistency, which is, I think, what you are alluding to in the second paragraph.

This very well could be the coaching staff feeling the heat a bit and saying "we need to make it look like we are coaching" so they go a bit overboard on the game scheme. Which I don't get since the soft forecheck/NZ trap has won them some of their best-played games all season. Why they wouldn't stick with that approach regardless of opponent is beyond me. Are they really that worried about other teams that they can't focus on their own? I have suggested in the past though that the core players may have some influence here on what style they are playing, which is problematic.

I may be too nice here regarding them. "Scrambling" may be much more fitting, honestly.
He gave his view on analytics in the summer. He uses them to stay au courant but isn't strongly inclined towards them like a Tulsky or whatever. Sort of a fence sitter when it comes to that. He doesn't really have a mathematics background.
Based on all the interviews of him I've seen, he's much more results focused than process focused.

He's different from Sullivan in that regard. Sullivan believes that if you consistently apply what he deems to be a good process, the positive results will inevitably follow. Dubas gets frustrated and impatient with bad results and acts.
That's why we've seen so much movement this year with call-ups and healthy scratches. That's Dubas intervening, while still respecting Sullivan's wishes to use defensively inclined Forwards in the bottom-six. If we had a different coach, we'd have likely seen Pitlick or more than 1 game of Puustinen by now.
I don't think he's on any one side of the continuum. I think he's positioned appropriately leaning slightly more towards stats (but not so overboard that he is missing the eye test). The problem with statistical processes in the NHL model is that there is such a small timeframe from which to draw your conclusions unless you have a team where results do not matter. If it's looking like something is not working, you need to fix it relatively quickly. You don't always have the luxury of letting things normalize which only serves to validate or invalidate your process. I think this is why we are seeing so many more "predictive" models playing a role ala the "expected goals". "This is what lagging indicators are telling us and this is where they "should" be at this moment. Are they meeting that expectation or not?" If they are, carry on. If not, you go into the evaluation process to identify causes.

With that, there are just system constraints on Dubas that make solutions tough. How do you replace a Rust or Rakell with what we have existing? Honestly, you can't unless an improbable event happens where an unlikely resource outperforms those statistical models. Otherwise, you make do with what you have and adjust expectations.
 
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I can count the number of Pens games I've missed in the past 30 years or so on my two hands. Timezone differences and all.

My Do not give a f*** meter is currently lower than it was during the X gen. It's WAY lower in fact. It's also way lower than any point of the Bylsma era.

More than anything it's just sad man. Dubas the FSG puppet can kiss my ass.
I feel you. Usually I get up for the games or stay awake but since last season I lost my interest in the team and don’t even watch the highlights anymore. It’s very frustrating and annoying to watch this team to make the same mistakes every game and the management not making the moves they need to do.
 
The thing about the stats that I think infuriates people is that a good process does not promise good results, and people seem to think that it should. Every year there are teams that way overperform their metrics and make it. Every year there are teams that put up great analytics and disappoint.

There's a variety of reasons for that. Luck is a thing. Goaltending is a thing. Powerplays/pks are a thing.

Having strong 5v5 analytics alone isn't enough to promise good results.

I'd rather be a good team with good analytics than a good team with bad ones. But i'd rather be a team like the Caps (who are winning despite piss poor analytics) than a team like the Pens (losing despite pretty decent ones).
 
ec0767d2b472a96e697b80a9fbeb6d94.jpg


Let's go Coyotes!
 
Seeing Lafferty develop into a very good bottom 6 forward, while Sprong has also developed into a nice bottom 6 option for scoring depth, is an indictment on Sully and his ability to develop young players
 
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we've been full time analytics over everything for like 5 years now and unsurprisingly we're extremely boring to watch and no one can finish, same way it works in every sport
 
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