Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

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Analytics are not the be all, end all. The Pens of the early to mid 90s would regularly get outshot, but they were just far better at finishing their chances.
The 93 Penguins would have seen a few advanced stats guys hitting the bottle on the reg. :laugh:

It was 30 years ago but I remember some games like Game 1 Nashville 2017 SCF where they're just getting trounced and all of a sudden they try for 5 minutes and the game ends 6-3 after being down 3-0.
 
I'm just saying the org can't even hide behind "the analytics have been good" as an excuse because they haven't been good over the past 10+ games.
Also of the 2 top 6 wingers missing, Rust was the only one producing while Rakell had 0 goals before he got hurt. The amount of excuses they keep finding is impressive.
 
Well we need to distinguish the cycling that's happening due to injuries and those that are performance-based.
When it comes to the PP, Puustinen is on the first unit tonight, on the left wall. Nylander and Z were both used on PP2 as well.

We also need to factor in that these call-ups aren't necessarily Dubas' first choices. Maybe he'd want a Pitlick, Nylander or a Puustinen up sooner, right?
But Sullivan is adamant on his L1 + L2 = Offense, L3 + L4 = defense thing. So Dubas pushes for change while respecting that framework.
That's not what happened in Toronto though. They called up or brought in offensively inclined Forwards to help the bottom-six score at points.

Sullivan will only call-up guys like Nylander and Puustinen when there's injuries in the top-six.
I think there's enough evidence to believe that this is true when it comes to Sullivan, but I don't know enough about guys like Nylander or Puusy to say that he's wrong for doing it. If they aren't good enough defensively to handle 60% D-zone starts in the NHL, then they shouldn't be played in this type of bottom 6 and I don't believe they good enough offensively to turn the 3rd or 4th line into another scoring line either.

With Dubas, we can try to read the tea leaves all we want, but the simplest answer is usually the best answer. He agrees with Sullivan's approach. If he doesn't, then it's still on him for exclusively signing defense-first (defense-only?) guys like Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Z, Harkins, etc. and then unequivocally backing Sullivan at every turn.

When it comes to the PP, sure, Puusy appears as if he is going to get a shot. But the majority of the roster moves have been independent from the PP. To me, it's pretty clear the PP is not a personnel issue. It's coaching. If they can't figure it out as a coaching staff and Dubas is so results oriented, then he needs to step in and make a change. Whether that is changing responsibilities, bringing someone additional in, or replacing Todd, something needs to change because the results aren't there. The PP analytics aren't there. And they ain't passing the eye test either.
 
I think there's enough evidence to believe that this is true when it comes to Sullivan, but I don't know enough about guys like Nylander or Puusy to say that he's wrong for doing it. If they aren't good enough defensively to handle 60% D-zone starts in the NHL, then they shouldn't be played in this type of bottom 6 and I don't believe they good enough offensively to turn the 3rd or 4th line into another scoring line either.
I haven't seen a shred of evidence in Nylander's 14 games with us that he can't handle a bottom-six role here. I see him defending just as well as the rest. His possession metrics are also very strong, which helps in keeping the puck out of our end.
Puustinen's a TBD. He's played 2 games at the NHL level. I don't have an opinion yet.
What I will say though is that at least with them in the bottom-six there's a chance that they could have some offensive joy. With guys like Carter, Harkins, Gruden, Johnstone...there's no chance. Using them is the same as accepting offensive futility.
Considering the team's scored 3 goals in the last 3 games, I would be leaning towards the most capable scoring threats out of our depth options right now. Our 5v5 scoring this year leans too heavily on GCR. L2 has gone ice cold. We found a good L3 but don't use it anymore. L4 is close to useless offensively with any combination we've used, outside of Hinostroza with Nieto and Acciari for a bit. That line also isn't getting reunited.
With Dubas, we can try to read the tea leaves all we want, but the simplest answer is usually the best answer. He agrees with Sullivan's approach. If he doesn't, then it's still on him for exclusively signing defense-first (defense-only?) guys like Eller, Acciari, Nieto, Z, Harkins, etc. and then unequivocally backing Sullivan at every turn.
I might believe that if Dubas didn't call up offensively inclined Forwards in Toronto's bottom-six last year. Also his signings historically are more offense focused than defense. What he did with the Leafs was secure the scoring first, and then he added complimentary pieces to insulate the defense a bit.
He didn't do that here because it wasn't realistic with our cap situation. He talked about this. Offensively inclined players command more on the open market, because GM's respond to point totals. Plus he also was in the jelling phase with Sullivan at that time, and was surely asking what types of players Sully was looking for. That's why it was Eller chosen as 3C, for example, instead of someone pricier with better offense like Compher.
When it comes to the PP, sure, Puusy appears as if he is going to get a shot. But the majority of the roster moves have been independent from the PP. To me, it's pretty clear the PP is not a personnel issue. It's coaching. If they can't figure it out as a coaching staff and Dubas is so results oriented, then he needs to step in and make a change. Whether that is changing responsibilities, bringing someone additional in, or replacing Todd, something needs to change because the results aren't there. The PP analytics aren't there. And they ain't passing the eye test either.
For me it's both personnel and coaching. Even the worst PP coach in the world shouldn't yield these kinds of results with this level of personnel.
They are frequently making bad decisions that have nothing to do with coaching. They are barely moving their feet.
I 100% agree that a system change is needed, but I think a change in voice and vibe is what's even more needed atm. The confidence is in the gutter, and the urgency is crap.
 
I might believe that if Dubas didn't call up offensively inclined Forwards in Toronto's bottom-six last year. Also his signings historically are more offense focused than defense. What he did with the Leafs was secure the scoring first, and then he added complimentary pieces to insulate the defense a bit.
He didn't do that here because it wasn't realistic with our cap situation. He talked about this. Offensively inclined players command more on the open market, because GM's respond to point totals. Plus he also was in the jelling phase with Sullivan at that time, and was surely asking what types of players Sully was looking for. That's why it was Eller chosen as 3C, for example, instead of someone pricier with better offense like Compher.
I don't think Dubas believes in Sullivan's "top six scores, bottom six defends and never scores" approach to building. At least, that wasn't his approach in Toronto.

Because of their top heavy salary structure, he had to bargain bin hunt to fill out the roster. But a lot of the time he signed guys who are offensively inclined but who were either injury prone or needed to prove themselves. The only "defense only" players that Dubas targeted during his Toronto days were Kampf and taking a PTO flier on ZAR last year. Usually his bargain approach were targeting the Jarnkroks, Kases, Spezzas, and Buntings of the world.
 
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Hire Berube

but but if we fire Sully, who will we hire?

Cant use that excus anymore
 
It was 30 years ago but I remember some games like Game 1 Nashville 2017 SCF where they're just getting trounced and all of a sudden they try for 5 minutes and the game ends 6-3 after being down 3-0.

It's funny, the 2016 vs 2017 Cups could not have been accomplished any differently.

First Cup we motorboated the entire field. Even being down vs Tampa I still had confidence this team would pull it out as we outplayed them. So the PDO went the way it should for us.

Second Cup was pretty much a defensive shell where we scrapped and scraped by without Letang. Then the PDO went the way it SHOULD NOT have for us that playoffs.
 
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Oh, so winning a Cup doesn’t buy you 20 years of immunity from other organizations?
Blues have the same number of points as the Pens lol…but one organization actually cares about winning and the other cares about the feelings of the core players and coaching staff more…what will the excuse be tonight when the Pens lose to the Habs for like the upteenth time
 
It's funny, the 2016 vs 2017 Cups could not have been accomplished any differently.

First Cup we motorboated the entire field. Even being down vs Tampa I still had confidence this team would pull it out as we outplayed them. So the PDO went the way it should for us.

Second Cup was pretty much a defensive shell where we scrapped and scraped by without Letang. Then the PDO went the way it SHOULD NOT have for us that playoffs.
It helps when you have a young and able Matt Murray pulling a .930 sv%.
 
Blues fire Berube after 4 straight losses

Yet somehow our Beantown Bum still has a cushy f***ing job…. :shakehead :shakehead

Get f***ed FSG.

Blues have the same number of points as the Pens lol…but one organization actually cares about winning and the other cares about the feelings of the core players and coaching staff more…what will the excuse be tonight when the Pens lose to the Habs for like the upteenth time

“Lack of sticktoitiveness…” :rolleyes:
 
Blues have the same number of points as the Pens lol…but one organization actually cares about winning and the other cares about the feelings of the core players and coaching staff more…what will the excuse be tonight when the Pens lose to the Habs for like the upteenth time
Oh, that’s a simple one: 2nd on a back to back with a travel night. You can’t expect them to compete under those conditions.
 
It sucks to see teams like the Blues, who were smart enough to move on from CB even faster after he won them a cup, and a team like the oilers who have benefited greatly from a coaching change… and yet here we are heading into 5+ years of not learning our lesson. :rolleyes:
 
The 93 Penguins would have seen a few advanced stats guys hitting the bottle on the reg. :laugh:

It was 30 years ago but I remember some games like Game 1 Nashville 2017 SCF where they're just getting trounced and all of a sudden they try for 5 minutes and the game ends 6-3 after being down 3-0.
I was at that game with my son. Very up and down emotionally.

Pens up 3-0 to tied 3-3 in the third to 4-3 winning 5-3 with a EN.
 
It sucks to see teams like the Blues, who were smart enough to move on from CB even faster after he won them a cup, and a team like the oilers who have benefited greatly from a coaching change… and yet here we are heading into 5+ years of not learning our lesson. :rolleyes:

But who else are you gonna get to coach a team with 3 HOF's that missed the playoffs last year and is in danger of not making it this year?

There are literally no other coaches breathing who can do this!
 
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