Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

[DesertedPenguin]

I've seen people post the Pens' record now vs. the year Johnston was fired.

Anyone have the points they were out of the playoffs that year? As bad as things appear, they are 2 points out of the Wild Card and only 3 points (with a game in hand) out of 3rd in the division.

This is not to say that they should "trust the process". On the contrary. I'm saying it's not too late to turn things around.

According to this page, these were the standings after December 11, 2015.

NHL Division Standings after Dec 11 in 2015-16 season

Pens were 15-10-3, fifth in the Metro, tied with Boston for the final spot in the east but Boston was ahead on point percentage.

They had a 67-67 goal differential. They were 26th in the league in goals scored and 6th in goals against.

Four fewer games, but Pens are two points out right now. Plus 10 goal differential, 21st in goals for, 5th in goals against. Certainly some similarities in terms of status.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I don't really miss Lafferty. Cool that he seems to have settled into some success, but I don't know that he fixes any of the major issues, even if you assume just plugging him into the lineup carries over his play/production (it wouldn't, imo).

 

[pistolpete11]

It's definitely not too late to turn the season around. Like you said, even hovering near the bottom of the East, they're still 2pts out of a WC spot with games in hand on some teams above them. But in 2023, with this roster, turning the season around means eeking into the playoffs and being a 1st round ritual sacrifice. This isn't a team full of elite talent in their prime, with significant depth pieces like Kessel and Hornqvist. /shrug

Everybody should be rooting for this team to lose, and lose badly, until the entire coaching staff is nuked. Not just Reirden, who I think is definitely gonna be the first to go. They all need to be replaced, imo.

Hard disagree there. With an even mediocre PP, this team would be second in the division. With a good PP, we'd be talking about whether they could catch the Rangers.

According to this page, these were the standings after December 11, 2015.

NHL Division Standings after Dec 11 in 2015-16 season

Pens were 15-10-3, fifth in the Metro, tied with Boston for the final spot in the east but Boston was ahead on point percentage.

They had a 67-67 goal differential. They were 26th in the league in goals scored and 6th in goals against.

Four fewer games, but Pens are two points out right now. Plus 10 goal differential, 21st in goals for, 5th in goals against. Certainly some similarities in terms of status.

Interesting. I thought they were out of the playoffs. Say what you will about JR, but he was not afraid to make the tough decisions. Sometimes those were also the wrong decision, but that one was one of the good ones.

Pens were 15-10-3 (33pts in 28 games), losing 3-2 to LA in a shootout. Sullivan took over and lost 4 straight. Then went 33-12-5 (71pts) over remaining 50 games.

Maybe I was remembering after the 4 game losing streak after Sully took over.

Yeah, I don't really miss Lafferty. Cool that he seems to have settled into some success, but I don't know that he fixes any of the major issues, even if you assume just plugging him into the lineup carries over his play/production (it wouldn't, imo).

Weird what happens when you don't bury a guy with 70%+ D-zone starts.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

I don't recall our board being too torn up about Lafferty leaving at the time.

If I remember right, most were pretty happy to see him go actually.

You can count me among them tbh. But I was still bummed to subtract even more physicality from the roster. Def would rather have him over Carter or Nieto rn

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Lafferty sucked here and him finally having success like 3 years later doesn't change that fact.

I just think it's funny that it's yet another player that goes elsewhere and does well after being free from Sully. Not only that it kinda went against Sully's whole "let them play through their struggles" thing

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Interesting. I thought they were out of the playoffs. Say what you will about JR, but he was not afraid to make the tough decisions. Sometimes those were also the wrong decision, but that one was one of the good ones.

I think vibes always play a part, too. They looked completely uninterested and inept in all phases under Johnston.

There is still some fight with this group. That's what makes it aggravating -- there are flashes of competency.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hard disagree there. With an even mediocre PP, this team would be second in the division. With a good PP, we'd be talking about whether they could catch the Rangers.


Interesting. I thought they were out of the playoffs. Say what you will about JR, but he was not afraid to make the tough decisions. Sometimes those were also the wrong decision, but that one was one of the good ones.


Maybe I was remembering after the 4 game losing streak after Sully took over.


Weird what happens when you don't bury a guy with 70%+ D-zone starts.

Somebody's gotta get the d-zone starts and with both scoring lines being pretty shit defensively, it's the 3rd or 4th lines. /shrug

He definitely didn't get coached up, but he was pretty trash while he was here.

I just think it's funny that it's yet another player that goes elsewhere and does well after being free from Sully. Not only that it kinda went against Sully's whole "let them play through their struggles" thing

I talked about the whole myth of "Everybody plays awesome once they leave" thing people love to bring up. It's bullshit tbh. The only guys who really took off and hit level after leaving were Sprong and Lafferty. Sprong got the team their best defensive defenseman. Lafferty is a whatever loss, imo. Kap, Dumo, Schultz, JJ, Zucker, Reaves, Petry, CDS, etc., etc. are all just as forgettable elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, the coaching staff is garbage. There's no way Sully and JR should've made it past the Habs play-in imo. But all the hand-wringing over ones that got away is just frustration over the state of the team, not realistically missing genuinely good players imo.

 

[pistolpete11]

Somebody's gotta get the d-zone starts and with both scoring lines being pretty shit defensively, it's the 3rd or 4th lines. /shrug

He definitely didn't get coached up, but he was pretty trash while he was here.

I know and that's fine, but then people around here bitch when our bottom 6 aren't scoring 40-50points a year. Wonder why?

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I talked about the whole myth of "Everybody plays awesome once they leave" thing people love to bring up. It's bullshit tbh. The only guys who really took off and hit level after leaving were Sprong and Lafferty. Sprong got the team their best defensive defenseman. Lafferty is a whatever loss, imo. Kap, Dumo, Schultz, JJ, Zucker, Reaves, Petry, CDS, etc., etc. are all just as forgettable elsewhere.

I don't know. In his first year in Seattle, Dumoulin has already doubled his goal total from last year in just over a quarter of the games played.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just think it's funny that it's yet another player that goes elsewhere and does well after being free from Sully. Not only that it kinda went against Sully's whole "let them play through their struggles" thing

It's because people never mention the guys who leave Pittsburgh and continue to suck or get way worse, and people just bring up the guys doing well because they want to complain.

Same thing happened last year when people brought up Kapanen being "amazing" for the Blues after the Penguins waived him (14 points in 23 games), as a way to complain about how Sullivan handled Kapanen. Now that he's back to his normal level of being painfully underwhelming (8 points in 24 games), no one brings him up anymore and now people bring up guys like Lafferty.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

It's because people never mention the guys who leave Pittsburgh and continue to suck or get way worse, and people just bring up the guys doing well because they want to complain.

Same thing happened last year when people brought up Kapanen being "amazing" for the Blues after the Penguins waived him (14 points in 23 games). Now that he's back to his normal level of being painfully underwhelming (8 points in 24 games), no one brings him up anymore and now people bring up guys like Lafferty.

Conversely McCann ended up a 40g scorer when used right

 

[Empoleon8771]

Conversely McCann ended up a 40g scorer when used right

The point I was making wasn't that "no player has left Pittsburgh and gotten better". The point I'm making is that people focus on only the players who have done that rather than the players who don't do that, just because they want to complain.

McCann, Lafferty and Sprong are a few examples of guys who took off after leaving this team. Then you have a bunch of guys like Kapanen, Petry, Dumoulin, Schultz, DeSmith and such that didn't. But no one mentions the ones who didn't.

 

[PaulD]

Just caughtva Headline

"Red Wings powerplay electrifying"

Imagine that

 

[Empoleon8771]

The next guy people are going to hyper fixate on after they leave here is 100% going to be Puustinen. If he has any shred of success elsewhere, people will be screaming about it and how Sullivan mistreated him. If he continues to be a nothing piece, no one will mention him or give credit to Sullivan for being right about him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I know and that's fine, but then people around here bitch when our bottom 6 aren't scoring 40-50points a year. Wonder why?

I don't think it's realistic to expect bottom-6 guys used in defensive roles to hit that kinda production. Shit, our wingers on the scoring lines are in that range.

Conversely McCann ended up a 40g scorer when used right

Yeah, but "used right" meant being a scoring line center. Which probably wasn't gonna happen because of Sid/Geno, and Sullivan's seeming insistence that McCann was a winger. Also, McCann still sucks shit in the playoffs--though that doesn't really matter cuz this team's fighting tooth and nail to even be in the playoff picture.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't know. In his first year in Seattle, Dumoulin has already doubled his goal total from last year in just over a quarter of the games played.

Which sounds flashy until you realize he's got two goals.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Which sounds flashy until you realize he's got two goals.

That's the joke!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's the joke!

I can't even tell anymore when people are genuinely talking about how lethal a SH weapon Kapanen's turned into for the Blues and he's got 3 goals in 24 games this year and is pacing for like 27pts.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't think it's realistic to expect bottom-6 guys used in defensive roles to hit that kinda production. Shit, our wingers on the scoring lines are in that range.

That's what I'm saying, but then I constantly read FA signing suggestions or trade proposals for whatever 40point winger who gets 18min a night, 60% O-zone starts, and PP time because that's gonna fix the bottom 6!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's what I'm saying, but then I constantly read FA signing suggestions or trade proposals for whatever 40point winger who gets 18min a night, 60% O-zone starts, and PP time because that's gonna fix the bottom 6!

I'd personally rather they get more size and physicality while just running a two-way 3rd line that can cycle and produce a bit more offensively than what they've had, and a purely defensive 4th line. But this team seems insistent on running two lines that attempt to keep things at zero event hockey.

I guess it's fine when it's working and the top-6 is clicking, but the 2nd line is hot garbage and if Sid's line isn't killing it, then it's real ugly.

 

[Andy99]

That's what I'm saying, but then I constantly read FA signing suggestions or trade proposals for whatever 40point winger who gets 18min a night, 60% O-zone starts, and PP time because that's gonna fix the bottom 6!

Well there zero reason, other than Sullivan being an idiot, to ice a team where the top two lines get basically all the O zone starts…if want to roll four lines and be a contending team that’s a no go…

 

[pistolpete11]

I'd personally rather they get more size and physicality while just running a two-way 3rd line that can cycle and produce a bit more offensively than what they've had, and a purely defensive 4th line. But this team seems insistent on running two lines that attempt to keep things at zero event hockey.

I guess it's fine when it's working and the top-6 is clicking, but the 2nd line is hot garbage and if Sid's line isn't killing it, then it's real ugly.

I don't have a strong opinion on how the bottom 6 should be used. The important thing is to get players that fit how the coach will use them (or for the coach to adjust and use them to their strengths). For the most part, they did and it's working. The bottom 6 is eating the tough minutes and not getting scored on.

Again, if the PP was even mediocre, they wouldn't be in the position they are in.

Well there zero reason, other than Sullivan being an idiot, to ice a team where the top two lines get basically all the O zone starts…if want to roll four lines and be a contending team that’s a no go…

Ehh. I dunno. At 5-on-5, it's working as designed right now. They are 4th in the NHL in GF at 5-on-5 and 6th in GA. They are just being let down by the PP.

 

[Tender Rip]

Lafferty sucked here and him finally having success like 3 years later doesn't change that fact.

I am not hung up on Lafferty, but he showed great promise early and then faltered completely.
The question to ask oneself is if its curious that no-one develops positively under Sullivan since his first years here. No-one.

Best people can do is Marino, and that was his first year having not been in our organization before.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

From a pure pragmatic standpoint, firing someone during a longer break makes sense because it gives the newcomer(s) time to work a bit with the team in practice before the first game.

When they fired Johnston, it was the day before a game. I think it took Sullivan over a week before he won his first game as coach. Edmonton just had a similarly rough transition from Woodcroft.


Boston has substantially more talented youth than the Pens do. And Heinen is on Boston's second line. He was with Poitras and Debrusk, now he's with Marchand and Coyle. So he's playing above some of the youth.

gross

 

[Ryder71]

I came down with an autoimmune condition that basically paralyzed my body. It’s called Guillain Barre - I had never heard of it until recently. I havent been home (Pittsburgh) since early June. Im lucky to be alive honestly. I was on a ventilator for several months. UPMC and AGH had no answers - thank god for Cleveland Clinic. I’ve been at a rehabilitation center in Atlanta since August.

Wish you nothing but good health and some modicum of peace and normalcy back in your life!