Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

[HandshakeLine]

Yohe's trash. But he's a good litmus test; as soon as he starts to openly question Sullivan or suggest he should be fired, then we can expect a coaching change. Never fails with the local Pens crew.

Yohe's a Quisling, he'll write anything as long as someone in power tells him to.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm sorry you mean a top line of Guentzel - Matthews - Rust. A 2nd and 3rd D pairing with Dumo and Petry and Derek Stepan somehow playing 4C?

Imagine not having the pride of Staten Island, ZAR on your Olympic roster. smh

(Also, knowing he's from Staten Island makes me dislike him even more)

 

[HandshakeLine]

So's the Wu-Tang Clan but nobody wanted to play Big Baby Jesus 10 minutes a night for his defensive prowess.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So's the Wu-Tang Clan but nobody wanted to play Big Baby Jesus 10 minutes a night for his defensive prowess.

This team could desperately use Dirt McGirt tbh.

 

[HandshakeLine]

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I like that the board migration resulted in like 50%+ gifs and pics just not loading.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I like that the board migration resulted in like 50%+ gifs and pics just not loading.

they conflicted with the crypto mining backend, so...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

they conflicted with the crypto mining backend, so...

Well how else are the owners of this site gonna afford those sick new NHL NFTs they're planning on releasing?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Yohe's backing of Sullivan is making me look like @Gurglesons

Yohe even suggests Reirden doesn't deserve to be fired. Yikes.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Gape Ape Snot Club

 

[Gurglesons]

Yohe's backing of Sullivan is making me look like @Gurglesons

Yohe even suggests Reirden doesn't deserve to be fired. Yikes.

It’s just weird he was so quick to bury Hextall and the rope he gives to Sully and company.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Every now and then I remember Sullivan's quote about being excited to fix Karlsson's game and I just immediately check back out of wanting to give a shit about this team.

For as much attention this place gives to stupid post game pressers full of the same cliche bullshit you hear all around the league, that quote about Karlsson this summer should've killed every single last person's will to defend Sullivan as a coach. Just f***ing beyond parody.

 

[Pancakes]

I honestly find it hilarious that people just default to "what about Mike Sullivan?" anytime the core is criticized.

It is both possible that Mike Sullivan is an issue while it's downright unacceptable that the top PP unit is this bad with the amount of talent it has. Both are problems.

The powerplay topic is interesting because there's a segment of fans who pin that more on the core than on the coaching staff.

My question to those fans is: what good is it then to fire Sullivan and Reirden? If the inmates are running the asylum what's going to change with a new coaching staff? What mythical coach comes in and actually implements change and gets the core to listen about it?

Personally I think the coaching staff is the most responsible for the PP struggles, and I don't think Crosby etc are the ones running the show. Why do I think that? Because Letang has spent most of the year off of the top powerplay. If the inmates were running the asylum there's no way he'd have been on pp 2 all year.

Execution is a thing of course and whatever system they're employing is obviously being executed pretty badly by the players. But if this collection of talent can't execute the scheme that they've put together then well...that's about 75% on the coaching staff I'd say. Because these players are largely too good to struggle this much with execution like this. That tends to make me think they're being put into situations where it's nearly impossible to execute this system well. And I think what we see on the ice is bearing that out.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I definitely think that the core has some influence on lineup and coaching decisions, because why wouldn't they? But the problem is, at the end of the day, if the coaches are delegating that to the players then they're not really coaching. And that's a problem, regardless of how you feel about the coaches in question.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The powerplay topic is interesting because there's a segment of fans who pin that more on the core than on the coaching staff.

My question to those fans is: what good is it then to fire Sullivan and Reirden? If the inmates are running the asylum what's going to change with a new coaching staff? What mythical coach comes in and actually implements change and gets the core to listen about it?

Personally I think the coaching staff is the most responsible for the PP struggles, and I don't think Crosby etc are the ones running the show. Why do I think that? Because Letang has spent most of the year off of the top powerplay. If the inmates were running the asylum there's no way he'd have been on pp 2 all year.

Execution is a thing of course and whatever system they're employing is obviously being executed pretty badly by the players. But if this collection of talent can't execute the scheme that they've put together then well...that's about 75% on the coaching staff I'd say. Because these players are largely too good to struggle this much with execution like this. That tends to make me think they're being put into situations where it's nearly impossible to execute this system well. And I think what we see on the ice is bearing that out.

There is a boatload of nuance that comes between "coaches have full control" and "the inmates are running the asylum". Those are on the two extreme ends of things.

The coach can decide who he sends out there, but he can't make Crosby and Malkin shoot more. The reality is that Rierden's structure almost definitely sucks but the players are doing a trash job at executing. At some point, you should be able to score a goal when you're on the PP with that amount of talent. You should be able to produce with that much talent even if you had a HFBoard user just screaming "shoot" as the PP coach.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Every now and then I remember Sullivan's quote about being excited to fix Karlsson's game and I just immediately check back out of wanting to give a shit about this team.

For as much attention this place gives to stupid post game pressers full of the same cliche bullshit you hear all around the league, that quote about Karlsson this summer should've killed every single last person's will to defend Sullivan as a coach. Just f***ing beyond parody.

Some people want to be COs or traffic cops, I guess it's the same sort of impulse that makes one a fan of a failing coach.

 

[Pancakes]

There is a boatload of nuance that comes between "coaches have full control" and "the inmates are running the asylum". Those are on the two extreme ends of things.

The coach can decide who he sends out there, but he can't make Crosby and Malkin shoot more. The reality is that Rierden's structure almost definitely sucks but the players are doing a trash job at executing. At some point, you should be able to score a goal when you're on the PP with that amount of talent. You should be able to produce with that much talent even if you had a HFBoard user just screaming "shoot" as the PP coach.

My point is if the structure sucks, that makes it almost impossible to execute well. What's this PP look like with perfect execution? Still questionable

 

[Ryder71]

Yohe's a Quisling, he'll write anything as long as someone in power tells him to.

A ''company man'' I love individuals like that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

My point is if the structure sucks, that makes it almost impossible to execute well. What's this PP look like with perfect execution? Still questionable

There's a big difference between "executing well" and whatever the hell they're doing right now, though.

If the powerplay was like middle of the pack with this amount of talent, at that point I think you can firmly put it on the coaching. But they're at the bottom of the league and haven't scored a PP goal over their last 30 attempts. At that point, it's not just bad structure. With perfect execution, this team would have a top PP despite having a bad structure just because of the amount of pure talent on it.

The futility of the powerplay at this point firmly brings the players into being responsible as well. You don't go 0 for 40 or whatever with 4 future Hall of Famers and just say "it's the coach's fault".

 

[PaulD]

How do you take a poor powerplay .......add Norris trophy winning 100 point Eric Karlsson to it .....and it's even WORSE ???

answer : Ask Mike Sullivan and his staff

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Some people want to be COs or traffic cops, I guess it's the same sort of impulse that makes one a fan of a failing coach.

I can't even fathom simping for a pro athlete as an adult. The idea that some people dive on grenades for a coach is astounding to me.

The powerplay topic is interesting because there's a segment of fans who pin that more on the core than on the coaching staff.

My question to those fans is: what good is it then to fire Sullivan and Reirden? If the inmates are running the asylum what's going to change with a new coaching staff? What mythical coach comes in and actually implements change and gets the core to listen about it?

Personally I think the coaching staff is the most responsible for the PP struggles, and I don't think Crosby etc are the ones running the show. Why do I think that? Because Letang has spent most of the year off of the top powerplay. If the inmates were running the asylum there's no way he'd have been on pp 2 all year.

Execution is a thing of course and whatever system they're employing is obviously being executed pretty badly by the players. But if this collection of talent can't execute the scheme that they've put together then well...that's about 75% on the coaching staff I'd say. Because these players are largely too good to struggle this much with execution like this. That tends to make me think they're being put into situations where it's nearly impossible to execute this system well. And I think what we see on the ice is bearing that out.

I think blame goes to both players and coaches tbh. Guys like Sid, Geno, Letang and Karlsson just kinda do their own thing out there--trying for highlight reel shit--and always have.

It's no coincidence the power play has always functioned the best with a guy like Hornqvist drawing guys down low and making the goalie's life hell with how perimeter the stars are, or somebody like Gonchar or Kessel who has the balls to keep the puck and make plays as opposed to simply deferring to Sid/Geno.

So it's up to the coaches to do whatever they can to make sure there's someone on the unit who will win puck battles and screen the goalie. That's not Jake or Rust. It might not be anybody on the roster tbh, but they're not even really trying. I'd also pull Karlsson aside and tell him he can be much more selfish than he's been. It's wild that even a dude who is the best offensive d-man of his generation is playing timid around Sid and Geno.

 

[PaulD]

There's a big difference between "executing well" and whatever the hell they're doing right now, though.

If the powerplay was like middle of the pack with this amount of talent, at that point I think you can firmly put it on the coaching. But they're at the bottom of the league and haven't scored a PP goal over their last 30 attempts. At that point, it's not just bad structure. With perfect execution, this team would have a top PP despite having a bad structure just because of the amount of pure talent on it.

The futility of the powerplay at this point firmly brings the players into being responsible as well. You don't go 0 for 40 or whatever with 4 future Hall of Famers and just say "it's the coach's fault".

if it struggles for 5 to 10 games, sure....it's on the players.
if it struggles for a season or more.....it's on the coaching staff ......then upper management for allowing coaching to be unaccountable.

 

[Gurglesons]

The coach is responsible for figuring out the Powerplay.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's a revolutionary idea, I know, but hear me out: a coach, like a parent, can set boundaries and punish players for not being responsible.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It’s just weird he was so quick to bury Hextall and the rope he gives to Sully and company.

Well, I think Hextall was outright negligent in his duties. To me, that's a greater sin than being out of ideas or no longer getting your message through or even being stubborn that something will work when it isn't. Because at least there is effort and desire in those larger situations, whereas being so out of your depth that you can't even do basic cap manipulations to tweak your roster is just pathetic.

Reirden is out of ideas. I'm sure he's putting in the hours. The problem is just beyond his capacity to fix.

Sullivan is stubborn. He believes in Reirden's overall philosophy and that it should work with this group, so he's giving him as much rope as he needs. I've said for a while that while I still like Sullivan as a coach, the best coaches get pushback from their GMs and even their assistants. They're challenged to evolve, and I don't think Sullivan has experienced that for a while.

I still think it's likely that something happens with Reirden than Sullivan getting fired, but I think that seat is getting pretty hot and Dubas will have no choice but to make a move if it doesn't improve by Christmas at the latest.