Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

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pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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Yeah that's the Minnesota Wild mindset. We've seen where that leads.

I'm not saying it's Cup or bust, but you have to at least put yourself in a position where you have a legitimate chance to win it all, and aren't counting on a Cinderella run every year.
I would happily sacrifice 5+ years to get the team to that point. That would be taking things seriously, unlike whatever the hell this is.
Minnesota don't have future HoF'ers that have carried the franchise on their backs for the better part of 20 years and delivered 3 Cups.

I'm perfectly fine giving the core a few more cracks at making the playoffs and seeing what they can do while not sacrificing too much of the future.
 

AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
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Minnesota don't have future HoF'ers that have carried the franchise on their backs for the better part of 20 years and delivered 3 Cups.
Yes, and I'm explaining why they never have have enough quality at any given time. They don't start from the ground up. They consistently are ok with treading water.
They're unwilling to do what's necessary.
What you're suggesting is more of that. That's wasting time. You're not gonna win that way. You can't get enough quality at reasonable cap hits through free agency and trade to fix this to the point where you're legit contenders.
Those are years that would be better spent accumulating picks.

I love Sid and Geno, but not so much that I think it's okay to just throw away like 5 years of the organization to satisfy their feelings. I'm a Penguins fan first and foremost, not a core 3 fan.
 

canadianguy77

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Yes, and I'm explaining why they never have have enough quality at any given time. They don't start from the ground up. They consistently are ok with treading water.
They're unwilling to do what's necessary.
What you're suggesting is more of that. That's wasting time. You're not gonna win that way. You can't get enough quality at reasonable cap hits through free agency and trade to fix this to the point where you're legit contenders.
Those are years that would be better spent accumulating picks.

I love Sid and Geno, but not so much that I think it's okay to just throw away like 5 years of the organization to satisfy their feelings. I'm a Penguins fan first and foremost, not a core 3 fan.
I don’t think you get enough back in return to make it worth it. Before the new contracts that probably wouldve been the prudent thing to do. Maybe could’ve squeezed 5–6 1st round picks out of them and really went for a hard rebuild. I doubt our scouting would’ve pulled off anything good anyway though lol.
 

AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
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I don’t think you get enough back in return to make it worth it. Before the new contracts that probably wouldve been the prudent thing to do. Maybe could’ve squeezed 5–6 1st round picks out of them and really went for a hard rebuild. I doubt our scouting would’ve pulled off anything good anyway though lol.
Agreed, it's not optimal timing. But any asset accumulation right now is a net positive compared to what they're doing. It's the only viable, logical option.
Re-tool's not gonna win a Cup. Status quo is not gonna win a Cup. So what do you do? You begin loading up assets. There is always a way to convert assets into something you need at a projected time down the road.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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I mean, yeah. We've been saying that for years, but for Yohe to grow a pair and say it... :laugh:

It's absolutely maddening to me how much this team and a significant chunk of the fanbase insist that our game is speed when we are not fast, do not play fast, and have not done either of those things for YEARS.
 
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pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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Yes, and I'm explaining why they never have have enough quality at any given time. They don't start from the ground up. They consistently are ok with treading water.
They're unwilling to do what's necessary.
What you're suggesting is more of that. That's wasting time. You're not gonna win that way. You can't get enough quality at reasonable cap hits through free agency and trade to fix this to the point where you're legit contenders.
Those are years that would be better spent accumulating picks.

I love Sid and Geno, but not so much that I think it's okay to just throw away like 5 years of the organization to satisfy their feelings. I'm a Penguins fan first and foremost, not a core 3 fan.
As I said before.....depends what your goals are.

I don't think giving the core another crack or 2 turns them into the Wild indefinitely, though. Yager and whatever picks and prospects they get from this deadline aren't going to step in and save this team from bottoming out in a few years once the core retires and/or aren't viable NHL players anymore. Doesn't matter if they have Scotty Bowman behind the bench.

Below is my post from another thread on how they could retool while not really affecting the rebuild. Other than trading and then re-signing Jake, I don't think it is at all unrealistic and I'd be perfectly fine giving that roster a shot with a new coach.

I really don't think it's unrealistic to sell this deadline, retool in the offseason, get younger, and still try to compete with this core next year.

Here's my stab at it. We can bicker about the specifics if you want :laugh:, but it's just a framework

This deadline

Jake (50%) + Noel 'The Key' Acciari for Foegele, Beau Akey, 2024 1st round pick and 2025 2nd round pick - Changed the proposal from a 3rd to a 2nd since Foegele is a UFA, but I added Acciari, so I think that's a fair trade off. If they can't take on Acciari for cap reasons, they can send us Janmark. Basically equivalent players, but Janmark is a UFA and clears Acciari from the Pens books for next year. - Have a handshake agreement to re-sign Jake, that's important.

Smith to Vegas for our 3rd back

Ned for a pick

Maybe some team is desperate for some veteran leadership, Carter (50%) for a 4th.

This is not a lot of moves, so it's very reasonable, doesn't affect next year's team much, and gets us some picks. Could also trade Eller and probably get a 2nd or 3rd, but I would like him back next year.


Next Year

First, fire Sullivan. Obviously.

1. Re-sign Jake as agreed ($9M)
2. Re-sign Foegele ($3M, just using him as an example since he's being discussed, but I do like the physicality and goal scoring potential)
3. Sign MAF ($1M, should be cheap as he's 40 years old and the reunion angle, no controversy with Yinzer Nation who should be starting at this point and they'll just be happy to see him smiling on the bench, and his stats don't look too bad in comparison to Gus, so it's likely the Wild just suck defensively).
4. Sign all the RFA to ~900k bridge deals. Puusy, Poulin, Bemstrom, POJ, Ty Smith

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
XXX - Malkin - Puusy
DOC - Poulin - Rakell
Bemstrom - Eller - Foegele
Nieto-Poolparty

Petts - Letang
Graves - Karlsson
POJ - Ludvig
Smith

Jarry
MAF

With a $87.7M cap, this team would have $6.8M to fill the XXX. Or you could not sign Foegele and have nearly $10M in cap to address whatever else you want. Or you could look to trade Rakell and have a boatload of cap space.

I think that team potentially has a lot of depth and interchangeability. Puusy falters or you can't find anyone to fill the XXX? You have Rakell and DOC you could bump up. Poulin isn't quite ready, you can bump Eller up. Bemstrom, Nieto, and Poolparty are kind of interchangeable. POJ or Ludvig falter you have Ty Smith who has shown he can play both sides.

And you're giving more opportunity to younger guys while still giving the core a chance. That's my ultimate goal for next year (assuming the coach is taken care of).

If things go south again next year, you can trade Petts, Eller, Rakell, Rust after the season, Karlsson will probably want out, Graves if you can, whoever XXX is, etc. Eventually Jake will probably want out too. So in the end you're still starting the rebuild, just a little bit later, but at least you gave the core 1 more chance with a new coach.

And if it works and they make the playoffs, great.
 
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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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It IS a super long shot, but I don't think trying to do a retool this year is a bad thing. It is the last reasonable shot this team has at doing anything more than disappointing us in the regular season, for sure. It probably won't do anything for the post season except get us into the dance, but you never know.
 
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Ugene Magic

EVIL LAUGH
Oct 17, 2008
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It IS a super long shot, but I don't think trying to do a retool this year is a bad thing. It is the last reasonable shot this team has at doing anything more than disappointing us in the regular season, for sure. It probably won't do anything for the post season except get us into the dance, but you never know.
A final retool is reasonable, Carter comes off the books and unloading aged vets in Smith and who knows if Crosby will be comfortable losing Jake. Unless Jake wants out I don't see them trading him without a huge overpay they can't refuse. Getting younger is key.
 

Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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A final retool is reasonable, Carter comes off the books and unloading aged vets in Smith and who knows if Crosby will be comfortable losing Jake. Unless Jake wants out I don't see them trading him without a huge overpay they can't refuse. Getting younger is key.

Jake doesn’t want out …he also wants a pay day like Rust did and Rakell and he’s turning 30…it’s too bad we’re stuck with Rust and Rakell because that means it makes no sense to re-sign Jake…we’re only getting further away from a playoff team even with him…unless he’s signing for a big discount by the deadline, we need to trade him for the best return possible, which should be good but won’t be a huge overpay
 

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
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It IS a super long shot, but I don't think trying to do a retool this year is a bad thing. It is the last reasonable shot this team has at doing anything more than disappointing us in the regular season, for sure. It probably won't do anything for the post season except get us into the dance, but you never know.
I think there are 2 important points that kind of determine someone's views on what direction to go.

1. What are your goals?
2. How much coaching is responsible for reaching those goals or not?

In my case,
1) I want to give Crosby and Malkin a shot to make it out of the first round one more time before hanging them up.
2) It's not the only problem, but it's the biggest problem.

If someone thinks it's Cup or bust or they need to be serious contenders or that Sullivan is not an issue, we're never going to see eye to eye.
 

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
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Jake doesn’t want out …he also wants a pay day like Rust did and Rakell and he’s turning 30…it’s too bad we’re stuck with Rust and Rakell because that means it makes no sense to re-sign Jake…we’re only getting further away from a playoff team even with him…unless he’s signing for a big discount by the deadline, we need to trade him for the best return possible, which should be good but won’t be a huge overpay
If Jake wants to come back, he should still do the team a solid and accept a trade now and re-sign during FA. I mean, it's at worst a 3-4 month assignment, probably less.

I've always kept Jake out of 'the core', but if he did that, I'd start including him :laugh:
 
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Randy Butternubs

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Mar 15, 2008
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Jake doesn’t want out …he also wants a pay day like Rust did and Rakell and he’s turning 30…it’s too bad we’re stuck with Rust and Rakell because that means it makes no sense to re-sign Jake…we’re only getting further away from a playoff team even with him…unless he’s signing for a big discount by the deadline, we need to trade him for the best return possible, which should be good but won’t be a huge overpay

Rust took a discount to stay (in exchange for trade protection). Look at his production before he signed that deal.

Rakell took market value.
 
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Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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Rust took a discount to stay (in exchange for trade protection). Look at his production before he signed that deal.

Rakell took market value.

Maybe as to Rust’s “discount”…we can’t be sure but his contract total of about $31M was not a discount or much of one…if he went to market at age 30 he was not looking at more than $36M anyway…it’s not the AAV of Rust and Rakell that’s the problem so much as the trade protection and length of the contract which makes the contracts difficult to move until maybe the last couple years. Neither was worth re-signing at their ages…we had a perfect opportunity at those times to get a lot younger on the wings and we didn’t …we basically gave up Sid and G’s last chances at a Cup imo re-signing both those guys…that and Matt Murray’s issues
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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Rust took a discount to stay (in exchange for trade protection). Look at his production before he signed that deal.

Rakell took market value.

This board is comical about Rust's external value and perception. Has been for years.

Again, the board rightly hates Sullivan. Sullivan loves Rust, so the board projects onto Rust.

Rust would fetch significant value if he waived his NTC
 

Randy Butternubs

Registurd User
Mar 15, 2008
30,417
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Morningside
Neither was worth re-signing at their ages…we had a perfect opportunity at those times to get a lot younger on the wings and we didn’t …we basically gave up Sid and G’s last chances at a Cup imo re-signing both those guys…that and Matt Murray’s issues

??????????

Who would've replaced them? Name names. This is nonsense.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
52,599
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This board is comical about Rust's external value and perception. Has been for years.

Again, the board rightly hates Sullivan. Sullivan loves Rust, so the board projects onto Rust.

Rust would fetch significant value if he waived his NTC

Disagree…he’ll be 32 in May, is a player who’s often injured (was again this season), relies on his speed and has 4 more years on his contract. Even if he waived tomorrow, he’s not fetching a first or a top prospect…if he’s still aging well in a couple seasons, he could fetch something good but too much time on his deal now
 

Ulf5

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Feb 21, 2017
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Rust took a discount to stay (in exchange for trade protection). Look at his production before he signed that deal.

Rakell took market value.
.29- .35
.28- .35
One gets significantly more power play time.
But I agree, Rust could've gotten more based on recent history.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
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Disagree…he’ll be 32 in May, is a player who’s often injured (was again this season), relies on his speed and has 4 more years on his contract. Even if he waived tomorrow, he’s not fetching a first or a top prospect…if he’s still aging well in a couple seasons, he could fetch something good but too much time on his deal now

Andy, just no. Rust is seen as a decent 1st line RW in this league and he signed for $5.2m AAV which is a pittance. Rust's productivity over years underscores this.

People on this board just despise him.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
49,074
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Praha, CZ
This board is comical about Rust's external value and perception. Has been for years.

Again, the board rightly hates Sullivan. Sullivan loves Rust, so the board projects onto Rust.

Rust would fetch significant value if he waived his NTC
Rust is okay, but I think most people wrongly expect him to play like he did when he first made the NHL and he really hasn't been that kind of player for 5 or 6 years now. That's the big source of the debate IMO.

I've made peace with Rust being a mediocre top 6 supporting wing that has an outsized reputation, but I just wish we could leverage that for once instead of paying for it.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
52,599
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Andy, just no. Rust is seen as a decent 1st line RW in this league and he signed for $5.2m AAV which is a pittance. Rust's productivity over years underscores this.

People on this board just despise him.

I love Rust…I was opposed to re-signing him at the time too for the reasons I mentioned…I don’t think he’s the difference between winning and losing for this team
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
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Rust is okay, but I think most people wrongly expect him to play like he did when he first made the NHL and he really hasn't been that kind of player for 5 or 6 years now. That's the big source of the debate IMO.

I've made peace with Rust being a mediocre top 6 supporting wing that has an outsized reputation, but I just wish we could leverage that for once instead of paying for it.

When he first came up he scored some big goals but was a bottom sixer.

If you'd rather he be a sparkplug 3rd liner that's fine, but I don't.
 
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