Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, that's exactly it. You cracked the case Phoenix Wright.

As they say, a mystery wrapped in an academia.

 

[MrBrightside]

You can debate the current value of Rust but when he signed that was definitely for less than what he would have gotten on the open market. This isn’t controversial.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Malkin is not being propped up at all. In fact, I'd say it's the opposite. Sullivan is sabotaging him by forcing jabronis like Phillips and White onto his line. And despite that and the PP not working, he's on pace for 65points. He's also a +4 despite not getting many +'s with empty nets and a whole lot of -'s when the Pens net is empty.

Anyone who highlights Malkin as a problem is an irredeemable idiot.

It's not just Phillips and White. O'Connor is not - and will never be - a top-six player. He is a fourth-liner on a good team. He is a third-liner on a poor team.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Anyone who highlights Malkin as a problem is an irredeemable idiot.

It's not just Phillips and White. O'Connor is not - and will never be - a top-six player. He is a fourth-liner on a good team. He is a third-liner on a poor team.

What type of team do we have if he's a second liner?!?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Anyone who highlights Malkin as a problem is an irredeemable idiot.

It's not just Phillips and White. O'Connor is not - and will never be - a top-six player. He is a fourth-liner on a good team. He is a third-liner on a poor team.

Ehhhhhh I think DOC has shown significant flashes and his speed/shot are very useful. He is a 3rd liner now with a bit of upside to be more. And brings badly needed speed with Malkin.

 

[Ulf5]

Lundell isn’t good enough imo…he’s a 3C…but if we could do Jarvis straight up…

Eh, he's only 22. And he's only 3C imo because of guys named Barkov and Bennett.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

What type of team do we have if he's a second liner?!?

The standings and draft lottery will tell us.

Ehhhhhh I think DOC has shown significant flashes and his speed/shot are very useful. He is a 3rd liner now with a bit of upside to be more. And brings badly needed speed with Malkin.

His speed is only shown in flashes. It isn't consistent. If he had a good shot, he'd have more than eight goals after playing the entire year with Malkin or Crosby. His creativity/playmaking is abysmal.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The standings and draft lottery will tell us.

His speed is only shown in flashes. It isn't consistent. If he had a good shot, he'd have more than eight goals after playing the entire year with Malkin or Crosby. His creativity/playmaking is abysmal.

I do t understand the speed only in flashes thing. You are either fast or you aren't. He is fast.

I do agree his offensive IQ is bad. Also, he has only played with Malkin really, and not the entire year by any stretch.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, Geno is what he is at this point. He'll never lose the hands or shot but he needs much better than 3rd/4th line guys on his wing, and this team can't really afford to do that.

I agree with DR's view that DOC's a 4th liner on a good team. He's NHL capable, but he kinda just sucks. I don't think much of Rust, Rakell or Smith tbh, but I do think Rust is a good bit ahead of the other two.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, Geno is what he is at this point. He'll never lose the hands or shot but he needs much better than 3rd/4th line guys on his wing, and this team can't really afford to do that.

I agree with DR's view that DOC's a 4th liner on a good team. He's NHL capable, but he kinda just sucks. I don't think much of Rust, Rakell or Smith tbh, but I do think Rust is a good bit ahead of the other two.

The only way to get Geno what he "needs" then is to spend more first round picks on this team. Throwing good money after bad.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The only way to get Geno what he "needs" then is to spend more first round picks on this team. Throwing good money after bad.

Yep. Agree. It's no longer worth giving a shit about at this stage.

 

[Andy99]

The only way to get Geno what he "needs" then is to spend more first round picks on this team. Throwing good money after bad.

Or actually draft well in the first round ….

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yep. Agree. It's no longer worth giving a shit about at this stage.

If the PP converts at 22%+ between now and the deadline I could be persuaded. Aside from that, nah.

Or actually draft well in the first round ….

Take out the word "well"

 

[Empoleon8771]

O’Connor is clearly not a 2nd line caliber guy but he has pretty firmly showed that he’s at least a solid 3rd line guy. If your team has O’Connor on your 4th line, your F group is amazingly deep.

If Puustinen can be consistent enough defensively, I think O’Connor and Puustinen as your 3rd line winger duo looks really good. I think you need better than Eller as the 3C there, but O’Connor-Eller-Puustinen should be a serviceable 3rd line in theory.

If this team seriously wants to contend going forward, getting a good 3C to push Eller to 4C is a major thing they need to do. I think that and fixing the powerplay are the 2 biggest issues this team needs to address. That 3rd line I mentioned would be serviceable, but that doesn’t erase the downright black hole 4th line they have.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If the PP converts at 22%+ between now and the deadline I could be persuaded. Aside from that, nah.



Take out the word "well"

There's nothing that this team could realistically do that'd make me want them to spend assets to add. They're fighting for their lives to simply be a 1st round sacrificial goat anymore, at the very best.

That's why I hope they lose in bunches, and in embarrassing fashion. Continuing to limp along, barely making/missing the playoffs, is just enough wiggle room for this lame organization to continue refusing to pick a direction to take.

 

[ChaosAgent]

O’Connor is clearly not a 2nd line caliber guy but he has pretty firmly showed that he’s at least a solid 3rd line guy. If your team has O’Connor on your 4th line, your F group is amazingly deep.

If Puustinen can be consistent enough defensively, I think O’Connor and Puustinen as your 3rd line winger duo looks really good. I think you need better than Eller as the 3C there, but O’Connor-Eller-Puustinen should be a serviceable 3rd line in theory.

If this team seriously wants to contend going forward, getting a good 3C to push Eller to 4C is a major thing they need to do. I think that and fixing the powerplay are the 2 biggest issues this team needs to address. That 3rd line I mentioned would be serviceable, but that doesn’t erase the downright black hole 4th line they have.

I don't know if Eller as 3C is the problem. Carter's existence, however, is. He is back to a "get hemmed in and just try not to get scored on" 4C again. I would give Poulin a shot to replace Carter as a bottom 6 C

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't know if Eller as 3C is the problem. Carter's existence, however, is. He is back to a "get hemmed in and just try not to get scored on" 4C again. I would give Poulin a shot to replace Carter as a bottom 6 C

Yeah they need Eller on the 4th line to make the 4th line competent more than Eller on the 3rd line is unacceptable.

O’Connor-Eller-Puustinen would probably be fine. At least not a 3rd line that would kill you. But their 4th line is heinous and should be completely redone.

 

[Andy99]

Eh, he's only 22. And he's only 3C imo because of guys named Barkov and Bennett.

Bennett is only a 40 point player..if FLA thought Lundell had more production in him, why wouldn’t they give him a shot on L2? I’m not saying he couldn’t be, but he had like 45 points his rookie season which has dropped off the last two seasons but FLA hasn’t moved him up either

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I mean, yeah. We've been saying that for years, but for Yohe to grow a pair and say it...

It's absolutely maddening to me how much this team and a significant chunk of the fanbase insist that our game is speed when we are not fast, do not play fast, and have not done either of those things for YEARS.

As I said before.....depends what your goals are.

I don't think giving the core another crack or 2 turns them into the Wild indefinitely, though. Yager and whatever picks and prospects they get from this deadline aren't going to step in and save this team from bottoming out in a few years once the core retires and/or aren't viable NHL players anymore. Doesn't matter if they have Scotty Bowman behind the bench.

Below is my post from another thread on how they could retool while not really affecting the rebuild. Other than trading and then re-signing Jake, I don't think it is at all unrealistic and I'd be perfectly fine giving that roster a shot with a new coach.

I actually think they should be acquiring 2027 and 2028 picks, cuz their development curves would align more with the team getting serious again.
But now that Kyle has basically ruled out scorched earth, the team's f***ed for the very extended future. So I guess it doesn't matter too much. They can just do whatever.

 

[pistolpete11]

To me, DOC is Hagelin-esque. You don't want him above the 3rd line, but he brings a certain skillset that could work provided the other 2 guys are good enough. By that, I mean closer to Crosby-Guentzel, not 37 year old Malkin and whatever complimentary winger is left over. Again, not ideal, but it's a way to manufacture some depth without sacrificing too much of the top 6.

But God forbid Crosby doesn't get the 2 best available wingers at all times.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

O’Connor is clearly not a 2nd line caliber guy but he has pretty firmly showed that he’s at least a solid 3rd line guy. If your team has O’Connor on your 4th line, your F group is amazingly deep.

If Puustinen can be consistent enough defensively, I think O’Connor and Puustinen as your 3rd line winger duo looks really good. I think you need better than Eller as the 3C there, but O’Connor-Eller-Puustinen should be a serviceable 3rd line in theory.

If this team seriously wants to contend going forward, getting a good 3C to push Eller to 4C is a major thing they need to do. I think that and fixing the powerplay are the 2 biggest issues this team needs to address. That 3rd line I mentioned would be serviceable, but that doesn’t erase the downright black hole 4th line they have.

I think Eller at 3C is way down the list of this team's problems. His current level of play is acceptable for a 3C. Now that could change as soon as next year as age takes a toll on him. But he's surrounded by better wingers now and he shouldn't have to do as much heavy lifting the rest of the season. Unfortunately he's still gonna get buried by heavy D usage thanks to our Jack Adams coach

 

[SEALBound]

"This team has a scoring problem, but I liked Rust better when he was putting up 41 points in his first 112 career games"

I like this team better when Sid and Geno were in their late 20's, not late 30's too, lol.

Rust as a 2/3RW at $3.5 is how winning teams plan things out

Rust as 1RW and $5mil is how the pens plan things out

But he's not really the issue

The issue is there's no one better on the team to push him down

I mean, that's not super fair. The problem with resigning Rust is the same problem we currently have with Guentzel - they are very productive, they have great chemistry with Sid, they are in their late 20s, and there is no one else on the market that can replace what they bring for the cost they will come in at.

One of the bad parts of drafting impact players is that eventually you have to pay them. It's a risky gamble to send them out early when they have "value" because you want them on your team providing that value. Every team deals with this. Two quick examples:
Colorado - Lehkonen, Nichushkin, Girard, Toews
Tampa - Cirelli, Hagel, Sergachev

You either keep your good players or you don't. The key is, you keep drafting well and by the time a guy like Rust comes up to resign, you've developed a new Rust in WBS and know what he's capable of.

I don't buy the premise of "winning teams don't resign guys like Rust to $5mil and put him on the first line" because it ignores so much context about the league, team, and FA statuses around that time. So illustrate that - "And the better alternative to resigning Rust was...?"

O’Connor is clearly not a 2nd line caliber guy but he has pretty firmly showed that he’s at least a solid 3rd line guy. If your team has O’Connor on your 4th line, your F group is amazingly deep.

If Puustinen can be consistent enough defensively, I think O’Connor and Puustinen as your 3rd line winger duo looks really good. I think you need better than Eller as the 3C there, but O’Connor-Eller-Puustinen should be a serviceable 3rd line in theory.

If this team seriously wants to contend going forward, getting a good 3C to push Eller to 4C is a major thing they need to do. I think that and fixing the powerplay are the 2 biggest issues this team needs to address. That 3rd line I mentioned would be serviceable, but that doesn’t erase the downright black hole 4th line they have.

That also requires Sullivan to drop the Scoring Lines 1 & 2 and Defensive Lines 1 & 2 model which who knows if he will. But yeah, if you can stick a Bonino-level 3C who has both average defensive and offensive abilities between those two, that would be a perfectly fine 3rd line option.

I also wouldn't balk at the premise of bringing in a younger 2C and then sticking Malkin at 1RW. I think with the draft capital we could get from Jake, Pettersson, and Smith we could potentially make that happen. I think a team can get a deal on Josh Norris if they are willing to take on the contract.

Rakell-Crosby-Malkin
XXXX-Norris-Rust
DOC-XXXX-Puustinen
Nieto-Eller-Acciari

I would even entertain giving Poulin that 3C slot. Or, more ideally, you can slot in a young center you get back in one of the trades mentioned above, like getting Maverik Bourque back in a Guentzel trade for example.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I do t understand the speed only in flashes thing. You are either fast or you aren't. He is fast.

I do agree his offensive IQ is bad. Also, he has only played with Malkin really, and not the entire year by any stretch.

To clarify:

I think his straight-ahead speed is good. It's his agility and edgework that isn't good. In tight, in the corners, he can be pretty clumsy. He struggles to accelerate in these areas/situations, and it noticeably slows him down.

Get an odd-man rush, though, and he looks great.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Pens practicing in Vancouver. No Rust.

 

[Andy99]

Pens practicing in Vancouver. No Rust.

Not surprised…Rust broke his hand or wrist or has some torn ligaments…