Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[stevo61]

Did Laine ever do his mandatory military time? Or did he get some sort of exemption?

no, he has 3 more years to start. Sounds like they got strict about athletes and celebs doing it

 

[EspenK]

Has anyone ever made the switch from W to C other than guys like Seguin who was drafted to be a C but started out at W? I am curious if any of the top C's started as Ws and changed this late in their career.

 

[majormajor]

Has anyone ever made the switch from W to C other than guys like Seguin who was drafted to be a C but started out at W? I am curious if any of the top C's started as Ws and changed this late in their career.

The probably actual inspiration for the switch for Laine and our coaches has been Tage Thompson. I think they've mentioned him by name.

He just went from 3RW to 1C in an instant, about the same age as Laine.

 

[Marioesque]

The probably actual inspiration for the switch for Laine and our coaches has been Tage Thompson. I think they've mentioned him by name.

He just went from 3RW to 1C in an instant, about the same age as Laine.

Yeah and Tage can't take face-offs that well either, it's often Skinner who takes them for him.

 

[stevo61]

Yeah and Tage can't take face-offs that well either, it's often Skinner who takes them for him.

Thompson took well over twice as many faceoffs as Skinner

 

[squashmaple]

Yeah and Tage can't take face-offs that well either, it's often Skinner who takes them for him.

Then Tage must be really dreadful at it because even Skinner is under 50%. Maybe a better example is Landeskog taking MacKinnon's faceoffs because Mack is bad at them?

 

[Marioesque]

Thompson took well over twice as many faceoffs as Skinner

Yeah there's just some situations that they'll use Skinner instead, usually in offensive zone so Tage can be open to shoot. Just saying that you don't have to be a faceoff wizard to play C effectively.

 

[thebus88]

Laine showing off his actual back checking on goal 1. It’s nonsense that’s attempted to be spread about him being anything other than lackluster defensively.

Thompson, while having a similar shot and release to Laine, actually has SIGNIFICANTLY better puck handling and skating skills than Laine, which that in itself makes him more effective at playing center.

His overall energy level and competitiveness is also now know on a completely different level than Laine also and Thompson actually uses his size to his advantage, unlike Laine, which makes his more effective defensively also, IMO.

As players, other than them categorized as “goal scorers”, I don’t like the comparison.

 

[majormajor]

Laine showing off his actual back checking on goal 1. It’s nonsense that’s attempted to be spread about him being anything other than lackluster defensively.

Thompson, while having a similar shot and release to Laine, actually has SIGNIFICANTLY better puck handling and skating skills than Laine, which that in itself makes him more effective at playing center.

His overall energy level and competitiveness is also now know on a completely different level than Laine also and Thompson actually uses his size to his advantage, unlike Laine, which makes his more effective defensively also, IMO.

As players, other than them categorized as “goal scorers”, I don’t like the comparison.

Thompson is a dazzling puckhandler but he's not any better defensively than Laine, I think possibly worse. Funny enough he was given a lot of the same knocks as Laine when he was a winger.

By the way, if anything Laine is too close to Thompson on that play. There are five Jackets back and it might confuse the rest of the guys that Laine is playing that close to Thompson, it's his responsibility to cover the trailer there. Thompson isn't his guy.

 

[Marioesque]

Thompson is a dazzling puckhandler but he's not any better defensively than Laine, I think possibly worse. Funny enough he was given a lot of the same knocks as Laine when he was a winger.

By the way, if anything Laine is too close to Thompson on that play. There are five Jackets back and it might confuse the rest of the guys that Laine is playing that close to Thompson, it's his responsibility to cover the trailer there. Thompson isn't his guy.

But you see, to bus this is about how he perceives it. If a guy tries to look like they're constantly working hard, he'll be fooled to think those guys are better than those who achieve more with less "looking busy". Imagine If you make it look like you're skating full speed after a puck Even if that's gonna be icing anyway, he will find value in your theater. Laine is a smart player who saves energy when possible and uses it when it's beneficial. He'll give up on that iced puck because he can assess it's out of reach much better than bus can.

That's why "he's lazy". Because the critique is intellectually lazy

And yeah in the video, if Laine followed Tage like Bus seems to want, he'd be badly out of position. The criticism comes from misunderstanding of player roles.

 

[Cowumbus]

By the way, if anything Laine is too close to Thompson on that play. There are five Jackets back and it might confuse the rest of the guys that Laine is playing that close to Thompson, it's his responsibility to cover the trailer there. Thompson isn't his guy.

Genuine question for you and Bus,

How can you tell who’s man that is without knowing the system? Or do you know the system? Or are you saying that in general a center should be covering someone going that low in the zone? If they are playing zone D, that would that not be his guy as a RW? Is it on the first guy back?

 

[majormajor]

Genuine question for you and Bus,

How can you tell who’s man that is without knowing the system? Or do you know the system? Or are you saying that in general a center should be covering someone going that low in the zone? If they are playing zone D, that would that not be his guy as a RW? Is it on the first guy back?

In the system we had last year (and in most), it doesn't matter whether you are center or winger, if you're first forward back, you cover deep until there is a switch.

In this case it is a bit ambiguous - but Laine is on Thompson's back side and on the outside of the ice, so he's obviously not in a position to cover Thompson. Gaudreau (a much worse defender than Laine) had the inside position but stopped moving and got in Jenner's way, and they were both slow to pick up on the open guy on the far side.

Gavrikov made the right play to switch over to cover Thompson as the middle guy (because the forwards lost position on him). Gavi was in the right place there, that goal is honestly just Thompson being a freak. He backhanded it in from a bad angle close to the goal line, I don't mind Gavi's positioning on him. Korpi got fooled.

 

[VT]

Laine can get more use out of his shot on the center because of he covers more ice. So partners will have more opportunities to score as he is very skilled and his lead his line, positional play, carry the puck and play around the boards , forchecking are very underrated. What he needs to improve is his foot moving. Positional play is not everything.
I hope his new girlfriend is helping him. It seems she is dedicating fitness and yoga.

 

[thebus88]

Thompson is a dazzling puckhandler but he's not any better defensively than Laine, I think possibly worse. Funny enough he was given a lot of the same knocks as Laine when he was a winger.

IMO, there is no such thing as “worse defensively” than Laine. Or Gaudreau for that matter.

By the way, if anything Laine is too close to Thompson on that play. There are five Jackets back and it might confuse the rest of the guys that Laine is playing that close to Thompson, it's his responsibility to cover the trailer there. Thompson isn't his guy.

You’re buying WAY too much into the whole F1-F2-F3 thing, and leaving all context out of the play in question. Him being “too close” (in your words) or having an impact on the other CBJ players thinking he can cover Thompson IS what makes it his “responsibility”.

It all happens in literal milliseconds. But, let’s break it down. Gaudreau is admittedly JUST at fault here and does quite literally get in Boone’s way, but, as they all are coming across the blue line (essentially all at the same time) Thompson is just a close to Laine as he is to JG, and he actually does a crossover right at the line that makes him MUCH closer to Laine, and this is the reason he is on LAINE’S SIDE OF THE ICE when he scores, and I argue why JG didn’t continue as the “F1” back, even though as you can see NEITHER Laine or JG moved their feet AT ALL past the blue line.

If anything, this is a perfect example of why our 2 “superstars” are not a good fit together, no matter who plays center between them. They are EVENLY at fault. This play and probably the entire year as a whole. This is the Laine Fan Club strategy of “out scoring the opposition” playing out in real time.

Genuine question for you and Bus,

How can you tell who’s man that is without knowing the system? Or do you know the system? Or are you saying that in general a center should be covering someone going that low in the zone? If they are playing zone D, that would that not be his guy as a RW? Is it on the first guy back?

I think some people continue to overthink or overestimate the concept or impact of these “systems” and don’t grasp how malleable, or FULL of adaptations they MUST have at the NHL level, and at NHL SPEED. The problem (OR any good) isn’t just the DIFFERENT “systems”, it’s the combination of PLAYERS playing inside any given “system” and the “chemistry” that comes from all of them fitting together naturally.

In this situation, it’s not like Gaudreau has beaten the entire group back by any type of legitimate margin, or is ANY closer to Thompson than Laine is. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, as you note, the pass comes out of Laine’s side of the ice, and he SHOULD have come lower and Tuch would never have even gotten the puck to Thompson. There’s no way Laine is (at the least) just as at fault as Gaudreau on this play, as it would have been easier for him to break up the play than it would have JG.

In the system we had last year (and in most), it doesn't matter whether you are center or winger, if you're first forward back, you cover deep until there is a switch.

In this case it is a bit ambiguous - but Laine is on Thompson's back side and on the outside of the ice, so he's obviously not in a position to cover Thompson. Gaudreau (a much worse defender than Laine) had the inside position but stopped moving and got in Jenner's way, and they were both slow to pick up on the open guy on the far side.

Gavrikov made the right play to switch over to cover Thompson as the middle guy (because the forwards lost position on him). Gavi was in the right place there, that goal is honestly just Thompson being a freak. He backhanded it in from a bad angle close to the goal line, I don't mind Gavi's positioning on him. Korpi got fooled.

There’s no time for a “switch”. TT is already past them by that time. You’re making it seem like Gaudreau was well past everyone being back, and as if he was closer to or in a better position to defend on Thompson than Laine, and it’s simply not true. They need to READ what’s happening much quicker than they do if they want to be on the ice together and so much in general.

The guy on the far side isn’t a threat in ANY way and yes once again, Gaudreau sucks on this play just as much as Laine, as he seems just as focused on that guy as he is TT. I think Gavrikov focuses too much/long on him also, but, think that’s because he thought the pass could be covered (by Laine) out of the corner. Problem is I don’t think Laine even picked his head up to look at TT at all.

Quite frankly you seem to have your ideas of “backside”, “outside” and “inside” positions, in relation to where Gaudreau/Laine are in proximity to TT/Tuch, and the puck, literally backwards, IMO. In the literal sense Gaudreau was the 1st forward back, and he played the entire thing wrong, by quite literally simply not moving his feet.

That said, where all the players involved were on the ice coming back into the zone in relation to where the puck was, and was going, and what Thompson does right at the blue line, by exhibiting the same exact effort level, or the CORRECT LEVEL that should be brought to the ice essentially every shift, Laine has an easier/better chance to break that play up defensively than JG.

imo

 

[thebus88]

But you see, to bus this is about how he perceives it. If a guy tries to look like they're constantly working hard, he'll be fooled to think those guys are better than those who achieve more with less "looking busy". Imagine If you make it look like you're skating full speed after a puck Even if that's gonna be icing anyway, he will find value in your theater. Laine is a smart player who saves energy when possible and uses it when it's beneficial. He'll give up on that iced puck because he can assess it's out of reach much better than bus can.

That's why "he's lazy". Because the critique is intellectually lazy

And yeah in the video, if Laine followed Tage like Bus seems to want, he'd be badly out of position. The criticism comes from misunderstanding of player roles.

Capital L

Capital O

Capital L

You keep me going brotha. Talk about irony overload. Or am I actually the one being “trolled”….

 

[cotopaxi]

Laine showing off his actual back checking on goal 1. It’s nonsense that’s attempted to be spread about him being anything other than lackluster defensively.

Thompson, while having a similar shot and release to Laine, actually has SIGNIFICANTLY better puck handling and skating skills than Laine, which that in itself makes him more effective at playing center.

His overall energy level and competitiveness is also now know on a completely different level than Laine also and Thompson actually uses his size to his advantage, unlike Laine, which makes his more effective defensively also, IMO.

As players, other than them categorized as “goal scorers”, I don’t like the comparison.

Laine was the furthest CBJ player away from his own net when Tuch received the pass and you're seriously implying that the goal is in any way his fault? You REALLY need to rethink some of this stuff.

 

[Viqsi]

IMO, there is no such thing as “worse defensively” than Laine. Or Gaudreau for that matter.



You’re buying WAY too much into the whole F1-F2-F3 thing, and leaving all context out of the play in question. Him being “too close” (in your words) or having an impact on the other CBJ players thinking he can cover Thompson IS what makes it his “responsibility”.

It all happens in literal milliseconds. But, let’s break it down. Gaudreau is admittedly JUST at fault here and does quite literally get in Boone’s way, but, as they all are coming across the blue line (essentially all at the same time) Thompson is just a close to Laine as he is to JG, and he actually does a crossover right at the line that makes him MUCH closer to Laine, and this is the reason he is on LAINE’S SIDE OF THE ICE when he scores, and I argue why JG didn’t continue as the “F1” back, even though as you can see NEITHER Laine or JG moved their feet AT ALL past the blue line.

If anything, this is a perfect example of why our 2 “superstars” are not a good fit together, no matter who plays center between them. They are EVENLY at fault. This play and probably the entire year as a whole. This is the Laine Fan Club strategy of “out scoring the opposition” playing out in real time.




I think some people continue to overthink or overestimate the concept or impact of these “systems” and don’t grasp how malleable, or FULL of adaptations they MUST have at the NHL level, and at NHL SPEED. The problem (OR any good) isn’t just the DIFFERENT “systems”, it’s the combination of PLAYERS playing inside any given “system” and the “chemistry” that comes from all of them fitting together naturally.

In this situation, it’s not like Gaudreau has beaten the entire group back by any type of legitimate margin, or is ANY closer to Thompson than Laine is. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, as you note, the pass comes out of Laine’s side of the ice, and he SHOULD have come lower and Tuch would never have even gotten the puck to Thompson. There’s no way Laine is (at the least) just as at fault as Gaudreau on this play, as it would have been easier for him to break up the play than it would have JG.



There’s no time for a “switch”. TT is already past them by that time. You’re making it seem like Gaudreau was well past everyone being back, and as if he was closer to or in a better position to defend on Thompson than Laine, and it’s simply not true. They need to READ what’s happening much quicker than they do if they want to be on the ice together and so much in general.

The guy on the far side isn’t a threat in ANY way and yes once again, Gaudreau sucks on this play just as much as Laine, as he seems just as focused on that guy as he is TT. I think Gavrikov focuses too much/long on him also, but, think that’s because he thought the pass could be covered (by Laine) out of the corner. Problem is I don’t think Laine even picked his head up to look at TT at all.

Quite frankly you seem to have your ideas of “backside”, “outside” and “inside” positions, in relation to where Gaudreau/Laine are in proximity to TT/Tuch, and the puck, literally backwards, IMO. In the literal sense Gaudreau was the 1st forward back, and he played the entire thing wrong, by quite literally simply not moving his feet.

That said, where all the players involved were on the ice coming back into the zone in relation to where the puck was, and was going, and what Thompson does right at the blue line, by exhibiting the same exact effort level, or the CORRECT LEVEL that should be brought to the ice essentially every shift, Laine has an easier/better chance to break that play up defensively than JG.

imo

This looks to me like there was a blunder/mixup between Gaudreau and Boone that freed up Thompson, and Laine didn't read that and thus try to cover Thompson as well as he might have. I submit that forwards who make that read quickly enough for it to matter are generally known as very good defensively, and nobody is attempting to make that argument for Laine. It reads very much like "well, you COULD have done this awesome thing, but you didn't, therefore YOU'RE TERRIBLE." Or the defensive end equivalent of insisting that Jenner is terrible on offense because there was one time he would have had a fantastic scoring chance if only he had a good fast one-timer.

 

[ProfessorFink22]

IMO, there is no such thing as “worse defensively” than Laine. Or Gaudreau for that matter.



You’re buying WAY too much into the whole F1-F2-F3 thing, and leaving all context out of the play in question. Him being “too close” (in your words) or having an impact on the other CBJ players thinking he can cover Thompson IS what makes it his “responsibility”.

It all happens in literal milliseconds. But, let’s break it down. Gaudreau is admittedly JUST at fault here and does quite literally get in Boone’s way, but, as they all are coming across the blue line (essentially all at the same time) Thompson is just a close to Laine as he is to JG, and he actually does a crossover right at the line that makes him MUCH closer to Laine, and this is the reason he is on LAINE’S SIDE OF THE ICE when he scores, and I argue why JG didn’t continue as the “F1” back, even though as you can see NEITHER Laine or JG moved their feet AT ALL past the blue line.

If anything, this is a perfect example of why our 2 “superstars” are not a good fit together, no matter who plays center between them. They are EVENLY at fault. This play and probably the entire year as a whole. This is the Laine Fan Club strategy of “out scoring the opposition” playing out in real time.




I think some people continue to overthink or overestimate the concept or impact of these “systems” and don’t grasp how malleable, or FULL of adaptations they MUST have at the NHL level, and at NHL SPEED. The problem (OR any good) isn’t just the DIFFERENT “systems”, it’s the combination of PLAYERS playing inside any given “system” and the “chemistry” that comes from all of them fitting together naturally.

In this situation, it’s not like Gaudreau has beaten the entire group back by any type of legitimate margin, or is ANY closer to Thompson than Laine is. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, as you note, the pass comes out of Laine’s side of the ice, and he SHOULD have come lower and Tuch would never have even gotten the puck to Thompson. There’s no way Laine is (at the least) just as at fault as Gaudreau on this play, as it would have been easier for him to break up the play than it would have JG.



There’s no time for a “switch”. TT is already past them by that time. You’re making it seem like Gaudreau was well past everyone being back, and as if he was closer to or in a better position to defend on Thompson than Laine, and it’s simply not true. They need to READ what’s happening much quicker than they do if they want to be on the ice together and so much in general.

The guy on the far side isn’t a threat in ANY way and yes once again, Gaudreau sucks on this play just as much as Laine, as he seems just as focused on that guy as he is TT. I think Gavrikov focuses too much/long on him also, but, think that’s because he thought the pass could be covered (by Laine) out of the corner. Problem is I don’t think Laine even picked his head up to look at TT at all.

Quite frankly you seem to have your ideas of “backside”, “outside” and “inside” positions, in relation to where Gaudreau/Laine are in proximity to TT/Tuch, and the puck, literally backwards, IMO. In the literal sense Gaudreau was the 1st forward back, and he played the entire thing wrong, by quite literally simply not moving his feet.

That said, where all the players involved were on the ice coming back into the zone in relation to where the puck was, and was going, and what Thompson does right at the blue line, by exhibiting the same exact effort level, or the CORRECT LEVEL that should be brought to the ice essentially every shift, Laine has an easier/better chance to break that play up defensively than JG.

imo

Blaming Laine for that goal is bunk. As Buffalo crossed the zone, Laine is literally the 5th CBJ player back (it would really help to see the context of the whole shift). I think the slow read of Gavrikov to pick up Thompson is the biggest reason for the goal, if we had to place blame. He spent too long on the weak side of the ice, in his own no man's land.

If you've played good hockey before, you'd know how frustrating it can be when players run around in the D zone without any regard to a 'system' (yes, they exist and yes, they matter, even on a backcheck in transition). If Laine ran down low with his hair on fire, they'd kick the puck up to his unprotected point, the Dman would walk in and take a clean shot without a defender in his lane, and we'd all blame Laine for not covering his point.

 

[Viqsi]

Blaming Laine for that goal is bunk. As Buffalo crossed the zone, Laine is literally the 5th CBJ player back (it would really help to see the context of the whole shift). I think the slow read of Gavrikov to pick up Thompson is the biggest reason for the goal, if we had to place blame. He spent too long on the weak side of the ice, in his own no man's land.

If you've played good hockey before, you'd know how frustrating it can be when players run around in the D zone without any regard to a 'system' (yes, they exist and yes, they matter, even on a backcheck in transition). If Laine ran down low with his hair on fire, they'd kick the puck up to his unprotected point, the Dman would walk in and take a clean shot without a defender in his lane, and we'd all blame Laine for not covering his point.

Arguably one of Jenner or Gaudreau could have switched to take the point in that last scenario, since they've already been caught in back. But that requires that everybody make very good reads almost instantaneously, and... yeah, that's a bit rough. We have systems for this sort of thing because it's inherently confusing; if all folks could always Just Know and Do The Right Thing in those situations we wouldn't need coaches.

 

[VT]

Can you give a video of that goal?
Btw, if at least one of the pair of Gaudreau and Jenner, also Gavrikov made a mistake ( judging by your words) why is Laine accused of bad reading of the situation? Or should he have been watching those players since Gaudreau is a puckless log?

 

[Viqsi]

Can you give a video of that goal?

It's the first goal in that "Tage Thompson 5 Goal Night" video.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

This looks to me like there was a blunder/mixup between Gaudreau and Boone that freed up Thompson, and Laine didn't read that and thus try to cover Thompson as well as he might have.

also the blunder between gaudreau and boone happened behind laine, over his right shoulder, while he was looking to the left. so there are only two ways laine could have read that in the first place:

1. looking at his own teammates instead of the guys on the other team while they're on the rush (bad!!! do not do this!!!)
2. having eyes in the back of his head

If Laine ran down low with his hair on fire, they'd kick the puck up to his unprotected point, the Dman would walk in and take a clean shot without a defender in his lane, and we'd all blame Laine for not covering his point.

yup, 100%. laine's positioning on that goal is pretty much exactly where you want your right wing to be in that situation.

it's not automatically bad defense just because he's gliding. it's just like how boone jenner isn't actually a good defensive forward (he's… okay), but people think he is because he always looks like he's trying super hard.

when it comes to defensive play, exertion ≠ efficacy

 

[Viqsi]

also the blunder between gaudreau and boone happened behind laine, over his right shoulder, while he was looking to the left. so there are only two ways laine could have read that in the first place:

1. looking at his own teammates instead of the guys on the other team while they're on the rush (bad!!! do not do this!!!)
2. having eyes in the back of his head

3. being mentally linked with his teammates as part of a telepathic hive-mind (but in that case, the blunder may not have happened at all...)

 

[cbjthrowaway]

3. being mentally linked with his teammates as part of a telepathic hive-mind (but in that case, the blunder may not have happened at all...)

ah, how could i forget about the sedins

 

[Viqsi]

ah, how could i forget about the sedins

Exactly!

More seriously, I think there's a universal tendency to look for Who's To Blame immediately after a goal and reason backwards to justify one's selection. I see folks do that all the time with yelling at particular defensemen when they're actually in position but having to deal with two guys because some forward screwed up the backcheck, for example. In this case, Laine is easy to notice because he was nearby, behind the play, and gliding.