Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Jovavic]

Going as expected in here

 

[VT]

Finns, could you tell what Jalonen about Patrik? Thank you.

Jukka Jalonen järkyttyi Patrik Laineen tilanteesta – leijonaluotsilta hyytävä paljastus kulisseista

Leijonien päävalmentaja on huolissaan Patrik Laineesta.

www.is.fi

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

Finns, could you tell what Jalonen about Patrik? Thank you.

Jukka Jalonen järkyttyi Patrik Laineen tilanteesta – leijonaluotsilta hyytävä paljastus kulisseista

Leijonien päävalmentaja on huolissaan Patrik Laineesta.

www.is.fi

It's just a sensational headline. Jalonen doesn't know the reasons but speculated a tiny bit that something's not right (well d'oh), but doesn't add anything factual. He does not know.

The more substantial stuff: Jalonen hasn't spoken with Patrik this year. Last year Patrik refused (or was refused in the end) to come to the World Championship and the reason was "injury" (we all remember that stuff I guess, does-he-doesn't-he). Jalonen says he had a feeling that maybe there was more to the decision than just the injury/physical. He says he had a different (better) feeling when he talked with Patrik in the 2016 WJC. Says he didn't get a sense of the usual self-confidence from Patrik for the WC talk and felt something was a bit off. He didn't think it was anything super serious though.

Jalonen also commented on the social media having an effect on players etc etc, not directly related to Patty (even if alluding that it could get a bit heavy for players like Patty who go on a hot streak and then slumps).

So basically a nothingburger.

 

[VT]

It's just a sensational headline. Jalonen doesn't know the reasons but speculated a tiny bit that something's not right (well d'oh), but doesn't add anything factual. He does not know.

The more substantial stuff: Jalonen hasn't spoken with Patrik this year. Last year Patrik refused (or was refused in the end) to come to the World Championship and the reason was "injury" (we all remember that stuff I guess, does-he-doesn't-he). Jalonen says he had a feeling that maybe there was more to the decision than just the injury/physical. He says he had a different (better) feeling when he talked with Patrik in the 2016 WJC. Says he didn't get a sense of the usual self-confidence from Patrik for the WC talk and felt something was a bit off. He didn't think it was anything super serious though.

Jalonen also commented on the social media having an effect on players etc etc, not directly related to Patty (even if alluding that it could get a bit heavy for players like Patty who go on a hot streak and then slumps).

So basically a nothingburger.

I think there can be very serious words. They show, he had lost his confidence, didn't trust himself, and it was probably pretty serious now that he had sought help. Only, if I understood you correctly, Jalonen though it is not serious in that time.

I looked at how depression manifests itself. There are similar symptoms. I'm not saying he has it, this is where medical examinations are needed, not our feelings. Just that he may have lost his confidence earlier and the events of this season certainly didn't help.

Btw, why was he taken on the trip?

 

[tunnelvision]

Says he didn't get a sense of the usual self-confidence from Patrik for the WC talk and felt something was a bit off.

Good summary overall but I'd like to correct on this part that Jalonen didn't say (at least explicitly) Laine usually has had "good self-confidence and self-knowledge", but instead when he's been at his best. Interestingly, Jalonen also added that he thinks Laine is a sensitive man and human being (not sure if the distinction between man and human/person was really relevant there).

 

[Marioesque]

Imagine if he "reads his own press" for example here and sees some people grossly misrepresenting him as player and blaming everything on him for years.

Wonder how he could ever get depressed.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Disagree with your statement in many ways. Your dismissal of the PAP is based on Darling's rant? Not so fast.

A. Players do not "hear" from the Players Assistance Program, like they do from DOPS. Players voluntarily enter the PAP, for mental health, addiction and/or other reasons.

B. Darling is disengenuous. If you listen to the very end of the posted interview, Darling recommends not going through the Player's Assistance Program "if you have an addiction or something like that..." From several sources, Darling had a history of suspensions (3 of them) from the University of Maine's hockey team for violation of the school's code of conduct with regard to alcohol. Having said that, one of the concepts of the PAP is some level of confidentiality, so while someone could speculate about the reasons for Darling's entry/participation in the PAP, there is no established "record" of it - other than that he voluntarily entered the program. From the posted interview, Darling expressly stated that did not like that his contract was somehow at risk of termination, that he thus felt pressured by the PAP, who were "bad guys." That was it - no details from Darling as to why he felt that way. Factually, Darling had been waived by the Canes on 11/29/18 and ended up with the Canes' AHL affiliate same date. On 2/10/19, Darling was granted a personal leave of absence from the minor league affiliate, presumably that is when he entered the PAP. Nothing I found about his being returned to active status from the PAP. However, on 6/30/19, he was part of trade to the Florida Panthers. Florida shortly thereafter bought his contract out. Darling then went to Innsbruck (Austria) to play hockey in November 2019 but returned March 2020 (due to pandemic). He signed a tryout contract with Florida Panthers at the start of the 2021 season (January 2021) but he was released without a contract at the conclusion of camp. It may be that Darling wasn't talented enough to keep/get an NHL contract, but that's different than being terminated for being in the PAP. His contract was honored and bought out by Florida, as could happen to any other player.

In any other employment scenario, an employee would be terminated from their employment if they did not follow a treatment plan for any illness/addiction for which they voluntarily sought help through a plan co-sponsored by their union and the employer. If an employee (or NHL player) doesn't reach out for help and cannot do their job because of addiction or mental health, they are very likely going to get terminated because they can't do their job. The PAP (or any employee program like it) is meant to offer an alternative to the employee to voluntarily get treatment confidentially and keep their job (and pay) - a win/win for the employee and the employer. But no program I know of provides that the employee gets to say "I entered the program, there are no consequences if I don't follow the program." Nor are they guarantied a job for as long as they want it - they get a reasonable opportunity to get their s*** together, they get counselling and other assistance (even after retirement if they want it) and then return to work. I cannot say with any certainty what Darling's scenario was - but Darling is the only player with significant broadcasted complaints about the PAP that I could find in a few minutes of research. There could be other players with complaints about the PAP but I found none; the general consensus seems to be that players are almost universally appreciative of the PAP and of the teams' recognition of the importance of the PAP.

C. The PAP has been in existence since 1996 - why would the Players Association have continued to negotiate to include the PAP as part of the CBA if the PAP was not working for the vast majority of the players? The owners, if only serving their self-interest, might not want the PAP - if the player has addiction or mental health issues that prevent them playing, then old-school management night want the ability to just terminate the contract for failure to perform or for some violation of a code of conduct in the contract. But the PAP tries to preserve the player, the contract and the relationship. That's good management when administered by an independent agency (which the PAP is) correctly,. And there have many instances of the PAP saving a career (and maybe a life or two). Many players have successfully entered the program - Vrana, Knight, McCarron, Price, Ryan and Ingram. Maybe to play again, maybe not, but with the help that needed to move on with life. A few other players entered this season. Without the PAP,, an addiction or mental illness likely would have resulted in termination of those players' contracts (at a minimum) at some point - that's why the players voluntarily enter the program and reach out for help. So I don't buy Darling's rant - at best he's an outlier for a program with good reputation.

C. We do know some things about Texier's entry/participation in the program. Tex was provided counselling. His PAP plan enabled him to be "home" with family for roughly 2 years dealing with family deaths that were life-changing to him. Instead of Tex or the CBJ looking to terminate their contract, Tex reached a mutual agreement to let his contract slide for 2 years while working/communicating with the CBJ. That isn't required under the PAP - the PAP provides that the player gets paid per their contract. Maybe the difference is the type of help Texier was needing compared to Darling. Maybe the difference was Texier's commitment (or CBJ's commitment?) to the process. Maybe the difference was something else. But in short, the PAP WORKED for both the player and the organization in Texier's case.

D. If Laine is experiencing depression/anxiety over the loss of his dad, injuries, not meeting his own expectations (combination of those), then that seems to follow the Texier path. If there is some addiction (that doesn't fit with the perceived narrative), it is still a program set up for Laine to succeed. It's up to Laine to meaningfully participate in the program once the program tailored to his specific needs is set up. For a while, Laine's participation may be nothing more than taking a long break from hockey and reporting to the PAP (and maybe the CBJ) every once in a while. That's not our business - that's part of the privacy of the PAP that I simply hope works for Patty.

Simply hitting “like” was insufficient. Great post!

 

[Forepar]

Simply hitting “like” was insufficient. Great post!

Thanks. Writing about the PAP kept me from kvetching about Jarmo for a day - which is a goal since returning from my self imposed sabbatical from posting during the holidays! lol. Programs like the PAP in the labor law/best practices field interest me, so hoping to see positive results for Patty. If there are any positive on-ice results, that’s just icing. Healing mental health issues has to be the exclusive goal - all else will follow from that.

 

[majormajor]

Imagine if he "reads his own press" for example here and sees some people grossly misrepresenting him as player and blaming everything on him for years.

Wonder how he could ever get depressed.

My guess is that most players read what is said about them online, and it bothers them. They aren't all reading HF, thank god, but between here and twitter, instagram, reddit, etc... there's a lot of nastiness and I'm sure it drives them batty. And it's hard to find a player that gets more bad press, and more outright misinformation, than Patty.

 

[VT]

My guess is that most players read what is said about them online, and it bothers them. They aren't all reading HF, thank god, but between here and twitter, instagram, reddit, etc... there's a lot of nastiness and I'm sure it drives them batty. And it's hard to find a player that gets more bad press, and more outright misinformation, than Patty.

I think a lot of players read hfboards as the biggest hockey forum. After all, Instagram, Twitter and the like aren't as offensive towards them.

Btw, if Patrick reads hfboards these days, he must be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Jovavic]

Would be hilarious if after Laine comes back and scores a goal, he lifts up his jersey and it says "This one's for Bus!" on his shirt. Everyone would think he meant the city or the fans but WE'D know what he meant.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Would be hilarious if after Laine comes back and scores a goal, he lifts up his jersey and it says "This one's for Bus!" on his shirt. Everyone would think he meant the city or the fans but WE'D know what he meant.

so basically this

but with a Really Bad Post on the scoreboard

 

[CBJWerenski8]

He was also asked for an update on Patrik Laine. "He's a good guy, who's got some issues. Very tough to control. I know that he, before the season started, was going to give for every goal and assist, money to mental health. I do know that he's put out a statement since he's gone on the shelf, that mental health is something that people have to deal with. With that being said, you can kind of read between the lines. He's going to have to go through a process to get himself ready to see if he wants to come back. We're all pulling for him. We're hoping like hell he's on the road to recovery," Davidson said.

 

[Halfboard]

I just listened to this. What an arrogant, defensive, asshat he was! Quite revealing actually.

 

[DJA]

I just listened to this. What an arrogant, defensive, asshat he was! Quite revealing actually.

It’s an open secret that JD, despite the down home, “aw shucks” vibe, is a first class a-hole. I’ve spoken to him a couple of times in person and he is as arrogant and condescending as they come.

 

[Halfboard]

It’s an open secret that JD, despite the down home, “aw shucks” vibe, is a first class a-hole. I’ve spoken to him a couple of times in person and he is as arrogant and condescending as they come.

He and Jarmo make quite the team. It’s no wonder players wanna get out of here as soon as possible & others don’t want to come here.

 

[NotWendell]

It’s an open secret that JD, despite the down home, “aw shucks” vibe, is a first class a-hole. I’ve spoken to him a couple of times in person and he is as arrogant and condescending as they come.

Same here.

 

[squashmaple]

It’s an open secret that JD, despite the down home, “aw shucks” vibe, is a first class a-hole. I’ve spoken to him a couple of times in person and he is as arrogant and condescending as they come.

Same here.

I won’t talk about my interactions as an arena employee, but as a fan and STH he’s been a mixed bag to me. Total assbag one time, genuinely warm and funny another. But I’m a woman in my thirties and even if he didn’t know my name, he had seen my face in the back halls enough in the four years I worked there. I shared the press elevator with him several times, including every single home playoff game in 2019.

 

[VT]

Do I have to understand that:

1. His problems are very difficult to control at the moment.
2. He has such problems , that he may end his hockey career.



Only questions, I am not so good in English and can understand something bad.

 

[majormajor]

Do I have to understand that:

1. His problems are very difficult to control at the moment.
2. He has such problems , that he may end his hockey career.



Only questions, I am not so good in English and can understand something bad.

It's more like it is too soon to talk about recovery or a timetable for return. He has to go through the process. We have no idea.

 

[VT]

It's more like it is too soon to talk about recovery or a timetable for return. He has to go through the process. We have no idea.

I understand. My question was about what JD said. His words don't sound too optimistic though, they made it sound (to me at least) like leaving might be one of those less complicated things. I very hope I'm wrong and Patrik will come back perfectly healthy.

Beyond that, I wonder why they took him on the trip? Were they hoping it was nothing serious and staying on the team would help him?

 

[majormajor]

Beyond that, I wonder why they took him on the trip? Were they hoping it was nothing serious and staying on the team would help him?

This stuff isn't that predictable. The player is the one that makes the decision about entering the player assistance program, and even the player might not know which way things are headed until he reaches a breaking point.

 

[thebus88]

Beyond that, I wonder why they took him on the trip? Were they hoping it was nothing serious and staying on the team would help him?

This is my question, why was there all this talk about him being available for trade, and was looking to come back and was on the trip with the team, then BOOM, sent home and into a program??

What happened in those last couple days when things apparently changed so drastically??

 

[Viqsi]

This is my question, why was there all this talk about him being available for trade, and was looking to come back and was on the trip with the team, then BOOM, sent home and into a program??

What happened in those last couple days when things apparently changed so drastically??

Mental health crisis moments and/or interventions tend to be less about dramatic causes and more boiled-frog moments. I'm assuming the frog just noticed that the water is boiling and he needs to get out.

 

[Marioesque]

Mental health crisis moments and/or interventions tend to be less about dramatic causes and more boiled-frog moments. I'm assuming the frog just noticed that the water is boiling and he needs to get out.

Sounds about right, he was getting ready for return, maybe this time he felt different about it than previous times and that made him notice he's not as mentally ready as he's been before after injuries. Had morr stuff to deal with. You have to love the game to be a top level performer which he expects himself to be.

I'm sure he'll let us know eventually, he's pretty straight forward and honest with self analysis usually