Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[stevo61]

Definitely makes more sense now

 

[NotWendell]

I commend thebus88 for being honest enough to speak an unpopular opinion. There are many people who would not feel empathy for Laine because he makes more money than any of us ever dream of. It's predictable actually.

I'm not one of them, but I understand where he is coming from.

 

[Marioesque]

I'm not one of them, but I understand where he is coming from.

I know where it comes from, I'm just repulsed by that pathology.

 

[The Four Seven]

I commend thebus88 for being honest enough to speak an unpopular opinion. There are many people who would not feel empathy for Laine because he makes more money than any of us ever dream of. It's predictable actually.

I'm not one of them, but I understand where he is coming from.

I feel like folks used to call what thebus88 regularly participates in as "diarrhea of the mouth". Or in the case of a message board, fingers, but what do I know.

You know I too have ill feelings about my fair share of people who will see more money than I'll ever be able to mentally conceive of, like ask me where I think people like Bezos and Musk are better off being and I'll tell you, but Laine didn't get rich off his family exploiting slave labor. He's literally a 20-something from Finland who was good enough to play hockey in a professional sports league.

 

[majormajor]

Here's Pat Lafontaine on his very difficult post concussion problems.



Emotional health can be at the core of the problem.

 

[thebus88]

I commend thebus88 for being honest enough to speak an unpopular opinion. There are many people who would not feel empathy for Laine because he makes more money than any of us ever dream of. It's predictable actually.

I'm not one of them, but I understand where he is coming from.

People should have no negative feelings towards guys like Carter and Dubois or they should look at themselves as terrible human beings apparently. Literally.

Where does “mental health” begin and end?

Here's Pat Lafontaine on his very difficult post concussion problems.



Emotional health can be at the core of the problem.

What percentage of professional hockey players or football players do you think have received multiple concussions in their lifetime??

How in gods name are things like boxing and MMA/UFC even allowed??

 

[Bobcat205]

I don't know what they got for putting a keyboard in front of you, but it should have been 3-5 years in prison.

Good on Patty for getting help. Hopefully he comes back stronger.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

What percentage of professional hockey players or football players do you think have received multiple concussions in their lifetime??

How in gods name are things like boxing and MMA/UFC even allowed??

You make a good point. No athletes in those other sports seem to be having any mental health issues.

And don't even get me started on rich people. I'm just glad we have a safe space here where unfettered capitalism can receive scrutiny, unlike other places on the internet run by unscrupulous billionaires where any sort of "eat the rich" talk or the benefits of democratic socialism like we all support here is immediately shut down.

Anyway, enough time for me on public wifi. Back to my artists commune where the man can't track me.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

To be clear, you guys think I “hate” these guys personally,

---

GUDBRANSON LITERALLY TOLD US THERE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE WITH THE “locker room” and none of you have wanted to talk about it and blamed it on Larsen running practice.

so, to summarize

1. you don't 'hate' any of the players i.e. laine
2. you automatically assumed, despite zero evidence to support this, that the 'locker room issue' was patrik laine, and are still bringing it up over a year later
3. you rushed into this thread to say you don't feel bad for him entering the assistance program

you see how #2 and #3 may make people doubt the sincerity of #1, right?

 

[Whiskey In the Jar]

I would expect Columbus Blue Jackets to seek ways to terminate Laine's contract during this seasonw with nhlpa co-understanding. Terminating contract will ensure Laine time to recover his mental game, or whaterver the reason for the withdraw was.

 

[DougKnowsBest]

i wish the human the best

 

[thebus88]

so, to summarize

1. you don't 'hate' any of the players i.e. laine
2. you automatically assumed, despite zero evidence to support this, that the 'locker room issue' was patrik laine, and are still bringing it up over a year later
3. you rushed into this thread to say you don't feel bad for him entering the assistance program

you see how #2 and #3 may make people doubt the sincerity of #1, right?

1) Watching CBJ hockey games over the past 20 years and them winning hockey games is good for my “mental health”. So now what!?! Do ya’ll not CARE about me!?!

Well, as I said, I hate what these guys do to the team. There is “hate” there, just nothing to do with the guys personally (for the most part as I only see their public persona) or because of whatever weird made up reasons some of you come up with.

I’ve let a lot of what you claim I or other people say over time go, as your “summaries” OFTEN MISREPRESENT what people’s views are on things, then when they don’t know how to respond to your imagination/bogus claims, you declare nothing has been disputed and you’ve won the argument.

I never said the issue was ANY individual player, but, there ARE individual players who are the issue. Whether due to play, or “body language” or quotes of some sort, over time it’s all part of the puzzle, if you have “eyes” there’s things to see. There’s clearly been SOME sort of issue between THE PLAYERS, that’s the point. Nobody ever wants to give any weight to that and always deflects from the situation and brings up coaching or management causing the issues. The reason I keep bringing it up is because it’s literally NEVER been addressed in any way, by any of the fans or media. It’s also not my fault the 2 players I’ve been vocal about for YEARS are going through whatever it is they are going through with the team, and no matter how you want to look at things from a morality standpoint and how ever much sympathy you want to show them, there’s no other way to look at them, other then as a “problem” that’s holding back the team in multiple/different ways.

“Zero evidence”?? What evidence could you possibly want that we haven’t already gotten over the past 3 or so years? What “evidence” did we have that there was some sort of issue with Laine, or players like Johansen in the past, before it was in our faces? Same goes for Elvis, there’s been plenty of “evidence” or “red flags” that’s been dismissed for no good reason and it continues to this day with actual reports, as SOME jump to defend a single player over separate GROUPS of players over half a decade. But, since we don’t have evidence, there’s no issue? Does that make sense to you? What “evidence” did we get from the Babcock sideshow!?!

And to reiterate, moving on from Elvis has almost nothing to do with Jarmo’s feelings towards Elvis, we’ve gotten MULTIPLE reports over many years of his TEAMMATES having an issue with him, yet people like you still ignore it and say “there’s no evidence”, and/or some of you simply don’t understand the dynamics between a hockey team and their goalie and don’t understand how terrible that is for the team.

And no, I dont “feel bad” for these guys just because or for any “brownie points” from society. As you say, we have no evidence, so why are people blindly defending them, when it’s been reported that a group of players has a problem with at least 1 of the players. And yes, money and resources have a huge impact on that, the same way it has an impact on why you guys are even so vocal in defending them for almost anything in the first place, as if the professional sports athletes who make TENS of millions need your pity in any way. What the world/country could be if everyone looked at their own people in their communities as positively, or were so emotionally invested in important aspects of society, as they are with celebrities and sports teams, or only when the subject matter involves them.

Each and everyone of you can get off your phones and stop protecting Patrik Laine from the big meany on the internet, and go do some actual worthwhile work on your own communities with some addicts, homeless veterans, or big brother type programs. Or just continue the virtue signaling.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

1) Watching CBJ hockey games over the past 20 years and them winning hockey games is good for my “mental health”. So now what!?! Do ya’ll not CARE about me!?!

Well, as I said, I hate what these guys do to the team. There is “hate” there, just nothing to do with the guys personally (for the most part as I only see their public persona) or because of whatever weird made up reasons some of you come up with.

I’ve let a lot of what you claim I or other people say over time go, as your “summaries” OFTEN MISREPRESENT what people’s views are on things, then when they don’t know how to respond to your imagination/bogus claims, you declare nothing has been disputed and you’ve won the argument.

I never said the issue was ANY individual player, but, there ARE individual players who are the issue. Whether due to play, or “body language” or quotes of some sort, over time it’s all part of the puzzle, if you have “eyes” there’s things to see. There’s clearly been SOME sort of issue between THE PLAYERS, that’s the point. Nobody ever wants to give any weight to that and always deflects from the situation and brings up coaching or management causing the issues. The reason I keep bringing it up is because it’s literally NEVER been addressed in any way, by any of the fans or media. It’s also not my fault the 2 players I’ve been vocal about for YEARS are going through whatever it is they are going through with the team, and no matter how you want to look at things from a morality standpoint and how ever much sympathy you want to show them, there’s no other way to look at them, other then as a “problem” that’s holding back the team in multiple/different ways.

“Zero evidence”?? What evidence could you possibly want that we haven’t already gotten over the past 3 or so years? What “evidence” did we have that there was some sort of issue with Laine, or players like Johansen in the past, before it was in our faces? Same goes for Elvis, there’s been plenty of “evidence” or “red flags” that’s been dismissed for no good reason and it continues to this day with actual reports, as SOME jump to defend a single player over separate GROUPS of players over half a decade. But, since we don’t have evidence, there’s no issue? Does that make sense to you? What “evidence” did we get from the Babcock sideshow!?!

And to reiterate, moving on from Elvis has almost nothing to do with Jarmo’s feelings towards Elvis, we’ve gotten MULTIPLE reports over many years of his TEAMMATES having an issue with him, yet people like you still ignore it and say “there’s no evidence”, and/or some of you simply don’t understand the dynamics between a hockey team and their goalie and don’t understand how terrible that is for the team.

And no, I dont “feel bad” for these guys just because or for any “brownie points” from society. As you say, we have no evidence, so why are people blindly defending them, when it’s been reported that a group of players has a problem with at least 1 of the players. And yes, money and resources have a huge impact on that, the same way it has an impact on why you guys are even so vocal in defending them for almost anything in the first place, as if the professional sports athletes who make TENS of millions need your pity in any way. What the world/country could be if everyone looked at their own people in their communities as positively, or were so emotionally invested in important aspects of society, as they are with celebrities and sports teams, or only when the subject matter involves them.

Each and everyone of you can get off your phones and stop protecting Patrik Laine from the big meany on the internet, and go do some actual worthwhile work on your own communities with some addicts, homeless veterans, or big brother type programs. Or just continue the virtue signaling.

 

[EDM]

This is all so ridiculous.

 

[Viqsi]

Okay, playtime's over. This particular subtopic is done now. Attempts to resume it will be met with points and threadbans if necessary.

 

[VT]

I would expect Columbus Blue Jackets to seek ways to terminate Laine's contract during this seasonw with nhlpa co-understanding. Terminating contract will ensure Laine time to recover his mental game, or whaterver the reason for the withdraw was.

It would be enough if the period he won't play doesn't count towards the contract.

 

[Viqsi]

It would be enough if the period he won't play doesn't count towards the contract.

Basically the Texier treatment, in other words.

 

[VT]

Sorry @Viqsi , I would just like to ask, how does such an aid programme work? Do you go to meetings with a psychologist from home or otherwise? I doubt he would play in Europe.

 

[Viqsi]

Sorry @Viqsi , I would just like to ask, how does such an aid programme work? Do you go to meetings with a psychologist from home or otherwise?

I'm not fully aware of how they run these things. It depends a lot on what the issues are and what's aggravating them. Texier did well with staying home for a couple years and he looks to be doing great now, so I'm kind of using him as a model for such an approach, but IDK what's up with Laine and so maybe that'd help, or maybe not. It's being addressed with expert feedback and involvement; that's all that's really knowable.

 

[VT]

I'm not fully aware of how they run these things. It depends a lot on what the issues are and what's aggravating them. Texier did well with staying home for a couple years and he looks to be doing great now, so I'm kind of using him as a model for such an approach, but IDK what's up with Laine and so maybe that'd help, or maybe not. It's being addressed with expert feedback and involvement; that's all that's really knowable.

Texier wanted to be with family because several people of his family died. We'll see.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Sorry @Viqsi , I would just like to ask, how does such an aid programme work? Do you go to meetings with a psychologist from home or otherwise? I doubt he would play in Europe.

I think the first rule of the Player's Assistance program is to not talk about the Player's Assistance Program.

I don't think anybody knows how this thing works except the people involved in it.

 

[Marioesque]

I don't think anybody knows how this thing works except the people involved in it.

Yeah and when you hear from them it's not good

 

[Forepar]

Yeah and when you hear from them it's not good

Disagree with your statement in many ways. Your dismissal of the PAP is based on Darling's rant? Not so fast.

A. Players do not "hear" from the Players Assistance Program, like they do from DOPS. Players voluntarily enter the PAP, for mental health, addiction and/or other reasons.

B. Darling is disengenuous. If you listen to the very end of the posted interview, Darling recommends not going through the Player's Assistance Program "if you have an addiction or something like that..." From several sources, Darling had a history of suspensions (3 of them) from the University of Maine's hockey team for violation of the school's code of conduct with regard to alcohol. Having said that, one of the concepts of the PAP is some level of confidentiality, so while someone could speculate about the reasons for Darling's entry/participation in the PAP, there is no established "record" of it - other than that he voluntarily entered the program. From the posted interview, Darling expressly stated that did not like that his contract was somehow at risk of termination, that he thus felt pressured by the PAP, who were "bad guys." That was it - no details from Darling as to why he felt that way. Factually, Darling had been waived by the Canes on 11/29/18 and ended up with the Canes' AHL affiliate same date. On 2/10/19, Darling was granted a personal leave of absence from the minor league affiliate, presumably that is when he entered the PAP. Nothing I found about his being returned to active status from the PAP. However, on 6/30/19, he was part of trade to the Florida Panthers. Florida shortly thereafter bought his contract out. Darling then went to Innsbruck (Austria) to play hockey in November 2019 but returned March 2020 (due to pandemic). He signed a tryout contract with Florida Panthers at the start of the 2021 season (January 2021) but he was released without a contract at the conclusion of camp. It may be that Darling wasn't talented enough to keep/get an NHL contract, but that's different than being terminated for being in the PAP. His contract was honored and bought out by Florida, as could happen to any other player.

In any other employment scenario, an employee would be terminated from their employment if they did not follow a treatment plan for any illness/addiction for which they voluntarily sought help through a plan co-sponsored by their union and the employer. If an employee (or NHL player) doesn't reach out for help and cannot do their job because of addiction or mental health, they are very likely going to get terminated because they can't do their job. The PAP (or any employee program like it) is meant to offer an alternative to the employee to voluntarily get treatment confidentially and keep their job (and pay) - a win/win for the employee and the employer. But no program I know of provides that the employee gets to say "I entered the program, there are no consequences if I don't follow the program." Nor are they guarantied a job for as long as they want it - they get a reasonable opportunity to get their s*** together, they get counselling and other assistance (even after retirement if they want it) and then return to work. I cannot say with any certainty what Darling's scenario was - but Darling is the only player with significant broadcasted complaints about the PAP that I could find in a few minutes of research. There could be other players with complaints about the PAP but I found none; the general consensus seems to be that players are almost universally appreciative of the PAP and of the teams' recognition of the importance of the PAP.

C. The PAP has been in existence since 1996 - why would the Players Association have continued to negotiate to include the PAP as part of the CBA if the PAP was not working for the vast majority of the players? The owners, if only serving their self-interest, might not want the PAP - if the player has addiction or mental health issues that prevent them playing, then old-school management night want the ability to just terminate the contract for failure to perform or for some violation of a code of conduct in the contract. But the PAP tries to preserve the player, the contract and the relationship. That's good management when administered by an independent agency (which the PAP is) correctly,. And there have many instances of the PAP saving a career (and maybe a life or two). Many players have successfully entered the program - Vrana, Knight, McCarron, Price, Ryan and Ingram. Maybe to play again, maybe not, but with the help that needed to move on with life. A few other players entered this season. Without the PAP,, an addiction or mental illness likely would have resulted in termination of those players' contracts (at a minimum) at some point - that's why the players voluntarily enter the program and reach out for help. So I don't buy Darling's rant - at best he's an outlier for a program with good reputation.

C. We do know some things about Texier's entry/participation in the program. Tex was provided counselling. His PAP plan enabled him to be "home" with family for roughly 2 years dealing with family deaths that were life-changing to him. Instead of Tex or the CBJ looking to terminate their contract, Tex reached a mutual agreement to let his contract slide for 2 years while working/communicating with the CBJ. That isn't required under the PAP - the PAP provides that the player gets paid per their contract. Maybe the difference is the type of help Texier was needing compared to Darling. Maybe the difference was Texier's commitment (or CBJ's commitment?) to the process. Maybe the difference was something else. But in short, the PAP WORKED for both the player and the organization in Texier's case.

D. If Laine is experiencing depression/anxiety over the loss of his dad, injuries, not meeting his own expectations (combination of those), then that seems to follow the Texier path. If there is some addiction (that doesn't fit with the perceived narrative), it is still a program set up for Laine to succeed. It's up to Laine to meaningfully participate in the program once the program tailored to his specific needs is set up. For a while, Laine's participation may be nothing more than taking a long break from hockey and reporting to the PAP (and maybe the CBJ) every once in a while. That's not our business - that's part of the privacy of the PAP that I simply hope works for Patty.

 

[Marioesque]

Disagree with your statement in many ways. Your dismissal of the PAP is based on Darling's rant? Not so fast.

A. Players do not "hear" from the Players Assistance Program, like they do from DOPS. Players voluntarily enter the PAP, for mental health, addiction and/or other reasons.

B. Darling is disengenuous. If you listen to the very end of the posted interview, Darling recommends not going through the Player's Assistance Program "if you have an addiction or something like that..." From several sources, Darling had a history of suspensions (3 of them) from the University of Maine's hockey team for violation of the school's code of conduct with regard to alcohol. Having said that, one of the concepts of the PAP is some level of confidentiality, so while someone could speculate about the reasons for Darling's entry/participation in the PAP, there is no established "record" of it - other than that he voluntarily entered the program. From the posted interview, Darling expressly stated that did not like that his contract was somehow at risk of termination, that he thus felt pressured by the PAP, who were "bad guys." That was it - no details from Darling as to why he felt that way. Factually, Darling had been waived by the Canes on 11/29/18 and ended up with the Canes' AHL affiliate same date. On 2/10/19, Darling was granted a personal leave of absence from the minor league affiliate, presumably that is when he entered the PAP. Nothing I found about his being returned to active status from the PAP. However, on 6/30/19, he was part of trade to the Florida Panthers. Florida shortly thereafter bought his contract out. Darling then went to Innsbruck (Austria) to play hockey in November 2019 but returned March 2020 (due to pandemic). He signed a tryout contract with Florida Panthers at the start of the 2021 season (January 2021) but he was released without a contract at the conclusion of camp. It may be that Darling wasn't talented enough to keep/get an NHL contract, but that's different than being terminated for being in the PAP. His contract was honored and bought out by Florida, as could happen to any other player.

In any other employment scenario, an employee would be terminated from their employment if they did not follow a treatment plan for any illness/addiction for which they voluntarily sought help through a plan co-sponsored by their union and the employer. If an employee (or NHL player) doesn't reach out for help and cannot do their job because of addiction or mental health, they are very likely going to get terminated because they can't do their job. The PAP (or any employee program like it) is meant to offer an alternative to the employee to voluntarily get treatment confidentially and keep their job (and pay) - a win/win for the employee and the employer. But no program I know of provides that the employee gets to say "I entered the program, there are no consequences if I don't follow the program." Nor are they guarantied a job for as long as they want it - they get a reasonable opportunity to get their s*** together, they get counselling and other assistance (even after retirement if they want it) and then return to work. I cannot say with any certainty what Darling's scenario was - but Darling is the only player with significant broadcasted complaints about the PAP that I could find in a few minutes of research. There could be other players with complaints about the PAP but I found none; the general consensus seems to be that players are almost universally appreciative of the PAP and of the teams' recognition of the importance of the PAP.

C. The PAP has been in existence since 1996 - why would the Players Association have continued to negotiate to include the PAP as part of the CBA if the PAP was not working for the vast majority of the players? The owners, if only serving their self-interest, might not want the PAP - if the player has addiction or mental health issues that prevent them playing, then old-school management night want the ability to just terminate the contract for failure to perform or for some violation of a code of conduct in the contract. But the PAP tries to preserve the player, the contract and the relationship. That's good management when administered by an independent agency (which the PAP is) correctly,. And there have many instances of the PAP saving a career (and maybe a life or two). Many players have successfully entered the program - Vrana, Knight, McCarron, Price, Ryan and Ingram. Maybe to play again, maybe not, but with the help that needed to move on with life. A few other players entered this season. Without the PAP,, an addiction or mental illness likely would have resulted in termination of those players' contracts (at a minimum) at some point - that's why the players voluntarily enter the program and reach out for help. So I don't buy Darling's rant - at best he's an outlier for a program with good reputation.

C. We do know some things about Texier's entry/participation in the program. Tex was provided counselling. His PAP plan enabled him to be "home" with family for roughly 2 years dealing with family deaths that were life-changing to him. Instead of Tex or the CBJ looking to terminate their contract, Tex reached a mutual agreement to let his contract slide for 2 years while working/communicating with the CBJ. That isn't required under the PAP - the PAP provides that the player gets paid per their contract. Maybe the difference is the type of help Texier was needing compared to Darling. Maybe the difference was Texier's commitment (or CBJ's commitment?) to the process. Maybe the difference was something else. But in short, the PAP WORKED for both the player and the organization in Texier's case.

D. If Laine is experiencing depression/anxiety over the loss of his dad, injuries, not meeting his own expectations (combination of those), then that seems to follow the Texier path. If there is some addiction (that doesn't fit with the perceived narrative), it is still a program set up for Laine to succeed. It's up to Laine to meaningfully participate in the program once the program tailored to his specific needs is set up. For a while, Laine's participation may be nothing more than taking a long break from hockey and reporting to the PAP (and maybe the CBJ) every once in a while. That's not our business - that's part of the privacy of the PAP that I simply hope works for Patty.

I certainly hope it works for him. I just posted that view, it's not my personal opinion that it's bad for players.